Any Post or Non-Tribbers in Here?

cv5 · Mar 24, 2023

Tribulation saints. No crowns. No thrones. A different category of the first resurrection.

GRACE_ambassador · Mar 24, 2023

Thanks for your respectful input; in the Mystery (unknown in prophecy), the
pre-trib (Bible says a lot) doctrine must be 'Rightly Divided':

Pre-Trib Great GRACE Departure I
+
Pre-Trib Great GRACE Departure II

cc: @Evmur @glf
You're welcome...

KeithB · Mar 24, 2023

GRACE_ambassador said:

17Likewise, thou son of man, set thy face against the daughters of thy people, which prophesy out of their own heart; and prophesy thou against them, 18And say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Woe to the women that sew pillows to all armholes, and make kerchiefs upon the head of every stature to hunt souls! Will ye hunt the souls of my people, and will ye save the souls alive that come unto you? 19And will ye pollute me among my people for handfuls of barley and for pieces of bread, to slay the souls that should not die, and to save the souls alive that should not live, by your lying to my people that hear your lies?

20Wherefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against your pillows, wherewith ye there hunt the souls to make them fly, and I will tear them from your arms, and will let the souls go, even the souls that ye hunt to make them fly. 21Your kerchiefs also will I tear, and deliver my people out of your hand, and they shall be no more in your hand to be hunted; and ye shall know that I am the LORD. 22Because with lies ye have made the heart of the righteous sad, whom I have not made sad; and strengthened the hands of the wicked, that he should not return from his wicked way, by promising him life: 23Therefore ye shall see no more vanity, nor divine divinations: for I will deliver my people out of your hand: and ye shall know that I am the LORD.

Ye hunt the souls to make them fly. This does not sound to me like God wants His people to fly anywhere.

cv5 · Mar 24, 2023

KeithB said:

KeithB · Mar 24, 2023

cv5 said:

Evmur · Mar 25, 2023

TheDivineWatermark said:

We are [Ihope] ALL agreed the church cannot be on earth during the period of God's wrath. The Great Tribulation is the great persecution that our Lord warned us will come upon the church preceding the Rapture.

I believe more will be martyred than remain for the Rapture.

.... the western church is not ready ... mis-led by the pre-tribbers.

Evmur · Mar 25, 2023

cv5 said:

we've seen it all before, the plain scriptures say Antichrist comes first in order of time.

TheDivineWatermark · Mar 25, 2023

Evmur said:

V.3 ...that day [the day of the Lord time-period, from v.2] will not be present if not shall have come THE Departure FIRST [one thing FIRST] and [distinctly] the man of sin be revealed...

...and he is "revealed" at the START of the day of the Lord time-period (aka the [7-yr] Tribulation Period--the "IN THE NIGHT" aspect OF the DOTL--with its judgments unfolding upon the earth, including the seals/trumpets/vials)...

... the thing that the false claim of verse 2 was "purporting" IS PRESENT / IS ALREADY HERE [perfect indicative].

It wasn't, and Paul is telling WHY that is NOT SO.

[and he repeats this SEQUENCE 3x in this 2Th2 context... which agrees with the SAME sequence supplied in all the related passages on this Subject, including in his first letter to the Thessalonians]

Evmur · Mar 25, 2023

TheDivineWatermark said:

In other words you say Paul said
"concerning the Rapture, that day will not come unless there has first come a Rapture"

... doesn't make sense

2 and 1st Thess makes clear that Antichrist is destroyed by the brightness of our Lord's appearing and by the breath of His mouth.

Therefore

The coming of the Lord to gather His saints is the END of Antichrist not the beginning. He will have had his brief period of world rule when he will seek to destroy all religious belief.

After Jesus comes, no more Antichrist, no more Beast, no more mark of the Beast, no more persecution, no more tribulation.

Jesus comes to REIGN.

TheDivineWatermark · Mar 25, 2023

Evmur said:

No.

You left out verse 2 entirely, which CHANGES the thing Paul was actually conveying in this passage.

[the text is NOT conveying "our RAPTURE" will not be present unless..." ;
It is saying "THE DOTL [v.2's]" will not be present unless / if not shall have come THE DEPARTURE [Paul's v.1 Subject] FIRST..."]

TheDivineWatermark · Mar 25, 2023

The "false claim" in verse 2, which Paul is cautioning them about, is "that the day of the Lord IS PRESENT / IS ALREADY HERE [PERFECT indicative--Perfect Tense: "Action completed at a specific point of time in PAST, with results CONTINUING into the PRESENT"]"

--not that the Rapture is present

--not that Jesus Himself is present

--not that the Kingdom-age is present

... but "that the day of the Lord is present [/is already here--unfolding upon the earth / playing out in their present-day experience]"--which would have been a REASONABLE thing for them to be persuaded was true [tho not true] and "ALARMED" by the fact of someone "purporting" such a thing, because of the "persecutionS and tribulationS YE ENDURE" 2Th1:4, i.e. their own VERY NEGATIVE circumstances they were ONGOINGLY experiencing.

They already "KNOW PERFECTLY" what "the DOTL" IS, per what we're told in his first epistle to them (where he expresses the fact that its ARRIVAL is "EXACTLY LIKE [hosper]" the INITIAL "birth PANG [singular]" that COMES UPON a woman... And Jesus spoke of those as commencing well-prior to His Second Coming to the earth point in the chronology... "The beginning of birth PANGS" are equivalent to "the SEALS" of Rev6, at the START of that future, specific, LIMITED time-period we call "the [7-yr] Trib" [Rev1:1/1:19c/4:1 "IN QUICKNESS [noun]"])

Evmur · Mar 25, 2023

TheDivineWatermark said:

That is false

YOU say Paul was seeking to reassure the Thess that their relatives and friends who had fallen asleep would miss the day of the Lord, it is simply false. No Christian wants to be in the day of the Lord which is the His wrath.

They were afraid they would miss or have already missed the Rapture, Paul says that.

Paul reassures them that those who sleep would be the FIRST to rise and we will be caught up with them.

He is speaking about the Rap. He doesn't suddenly veer off midway through a sentence to a completely different topic, a different event to happen 1, 000 years after and then bounce back.

He's talking about the Rapture THAT day shall not come.

What you have posted is false.

TheDivineWatermark · Mar 25, 2023

Evmur said:

Not what I've said.

What I'm pointing out is that the EARTHLY-located time-period ("the day of the Lord") COMMENCES at the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR; per 1Th5:1-3 which is Matt24:4/Mk13:5 "A CERTAIN ONE [G5100]"]"... not commencing at the later point in the chronology, when the "birth pangs" are ALL DONE and OVER.

Evmur · Mar 25, 2023

TheDivineWatermark said:

There is no persecution in the Kingdom age, Jesus has slain the persecutors, not only Antichrist but all those who have come up with Antichrist to invade Jerusalem, those who have received the mark of the Beast. It's all over with them, the Jews will be burying them for 7 years.

Those Thess knew well they were not yet in the Kingdom age. Paul say clearly what the fear was, that they have missed the Rapture, but Paul says no, they will be first to rise.

what you are saying is false.

TheDivineWatermark · Mar 25, 2023

Let the readers consider:

--Ezra 5:12 - "But after that our fathers had provoked the God of heaven unto wrath, he gave them into the hand of Nebuchadnezzar the king of Babylon, the Chaldean, who destroyed this house, and carried the people away into Babylon."

--in Hab1:6,12, it says, " O LORD, thou hast ordained them [the Chaldeans, v.6] for judgment [to execute judgment]; and, O mighty God, thou hast established them [the Chaldeans] for correction."

--in Lam2:3-4 (in the midst of "wrath" words, and "IN FLAMING FIRE" words), the language is parallel to what we see in parts of 2Th1&2, especially 2Th2:7b-8a saying "... only the one restraining at present will restrain, UNTIL out of the midst he become [/come to be] AND THEN [kai tote] shall that Wicked be revealed..."; Which is parallel language to Lam2:3-4 "... he hath drawn back his right hand from before the enemy [effectively saying, 'HAVE AT 'EM!' i.e lifting His restraint!], and he burned against Jacob like a flaming fire, which devoureth round about."

--the START of the TRIB is when Jesus will "STAND to JUDGE" (Isa3:13; Rev5:6) BY His opening the FIRST SEAL (rider on white horse with a BOW ['BOW' often meaning DECEPTION]"), aka the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR; 1Th5:1-3 which is Matt24:4/Mk13:5 "A CERTAIN ONE ['a certain one' BRINGING DECEPTION]"]

--the Trib yrs are WHEN the FINAL aspect of Neb's "dream / statue / image" (with Neb as "HEAD of gold") will be unfolding upon the earth (as God's JUDGMENTs...; before the BLESSINGs aspect OF the DOTL earthly time-period will thereafter exist on the earth, aka the MK age)

TheDivineWatermark · Mar 25, 2023

Evmur said:

I've never said that.

The problem is, you are not grasping what all "the day of the Lord" entails.

It COMMENCES well-prior to His Second Coming to the earth (at the START of the Trib--1Th5:1-3 its ARRIVAL--"IN THE NIGHT"); but also goes onto INCLUDE His Second Coming to the earth (Rev19), as well as INCLUDING the entire MK age.

Evmur · Mar 25, 2023

TheDivineWatermark said:

Let the readers consider:

--Ezra 5:12 - "But after that our fathers had provoked the God of heaven unto wrath, he gave them into the hand of Nebuchadnezzar the king of Babylon, the Chaldean, who destroyed this house, and carried the people away into Babylon."

--in Hab1:6,12, it says, " O LORD, thou hast ordained them [the Chaldeans, v.6] for judgment [to execute judgment]; and, O mighty God, thou hast established them [the Chaldeans] for correction."

--in Lam2:3-4 (in the midst of "wrath" words, and "IN FLAMING FIRE" words), the language is parallel to what we see in parts of 2Th1&2, especially 2Th2:7b-8a saying "... only the one restraining at present will restrain, UNTIL out of the midst he become [/come to be] AND THEN [kai tote] shall that Wicked be revealed..."; Which is parallel language to Lam2:3-4 "... he hath drawn back his right hand from before the enemy [effectively saying, 'HAVE AT 'EM!' i.e lifting His restraint!], and he burned against Jacob like a flaming fire, which devoureth round about."

--the START of the TRIB is when Jesus will "STAND to JUDGE" (Isa3:13; Rev5:6) BY His opening the FIRST SEAL (rider on white horse with a BOW ['BOW' often meaning DECEPTION]"), aka the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR; 1Th5:1-3 which is Matt24:4/Mk13:5 "A CERTAIN ONE ['a certain one' BRINGING DECEPTION]"]

--the Trib yrs are WHEN the FINAL aspect of Neb's "dream / statue / image" (with Neb as "HEAD of gold") will be unfolding upon the earth (as God's JUDGMENTs...; before the BLESSINGs aspect OF the DOTL earthly time-period will thereafter exist on the earth, aka the MK age)

we are too far apart to debate I'm afraid.

TheDivineWatermark · Mar 25, 2023

^ @Evmur , I recommend you study out 1Th5:1-3 (re: the ARRIVAL of the day of the Lord time-period, at the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR]" Paul says) and COMPARE it with what Jesus said about those very "birth PANGS" (they don't commence at the END [of the Trib]!)

TheDivineWatermark · Mar 25, 2023

"The Day of the Lord" earthly-located time-period is MORE than His Millennial Kingdom age; It commences WELL-PRIOR to that point (though it also goes on to INCLUDE IT, in its entirety, as well), per 1Th5:1-3's telling of its ARRIVAL ("exactly like [hosper]" the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR]"... of many more birth pangs that will follow on from that INITIAL one... all of which BPs unfold upon the earth LEADING UP TO Christ's Second Coming to the earth at Rev19)

[the "false claim" in 2Th2:2 was purporting that it "is present / is already here [PERFECT indicative]". It wasn't, and Paul explains WHY--and repeats the sequence 3x in this passage]

TheDivineWatermark · Mar 25, 2023

Evmur said:

The "false claim" (v.2) involved the matter that something "IS PRESENT / IS ALREADY HERE [PERFECT INDICATIVE]"

(the "false claim" did not consist of what they'd "missed"--there is no evidence whatsoever supplied in the text that would inform us that the words of any false claimants included the idea of [their] "missing" or "having missed" something, but rather, that [something in particular] "IS PRESENT / IS ALREADY HERE [PERFECT indicative]").

Stick with what the TEXT ITSELF is telling us was the context of the false claim (v.2), without injecting "ideas" INTO the wording provided in verse 2 itself (about what the false claim itself consisted of), and one will come to see more clearly what it is that Paul is actually conveying in this context / passage. = )

[v. 2 "[purporting] that the day of the Lord IS PRESENT"... and we know from his first letter, about its ARRIVAL point in time...]

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