Apologetics: witnessing to atheists
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@GWH i agree with that you have said about atheists being in a belief system with involves rejection of God.
However as @CS1 said, there is the matter of Truth, but as we discussed in another topic earlier, this is also a bit personal isn't it?
And the reason for that is ... you guessed it .. free-will. This is where everything hinges.
Because for me it's clear as day that we live in the miracle of Creation and everything has intelligence in its design. Atheists reject this. This is their free will choice.
On top of that, there are miracles within the creation which is another major factor for me. Atheists reject these too.
Then there's the fine-tuning argument. Atheists reject this one as well.
The creation itself requiring a first mover is also another big clue. Atheists don't like this one either.
Finally Jesus Christ walked this Earth and did miracles but they don't like this historical fact too and the conversation here can get a bit lengthy.
The point is and everything circles back to free-will. You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink. You have to respect this fact because The Father gave us this defining feature when He created us. So if they choose to reject God after many GOOD reasons, then this is their choice.
However as @CS1 said, there is the matter of Truth, but as we discussed in another topic earlier, this is also a bit personal isn't it?
And the reason for that is ... you guessed it .. free-will. This is where everything hinges.
Because for me it's clear as day that we live in the miracle of Creation and everything has intelligence in its design. Atheists reject this. This is their free will choice.
On top of that, there are miracles within the creation which is another major factor for me. Atheists reject these too.
Then there's the fine-tuning argument. Atheists reject this one as well.
The creation itself requiring a first mover is also another big clue. Atheists don't like this one either.
Finally Jesus Christ walked this Earth and did miracles but they don't like this historical fact too and the conversation here can get a bit lengthy.
The point is and everything circles back to free-will. You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink. You have to respect this fact because The Father gave us this defining feature when He created us. So if they choose to reject God after many GOOD reasons, then this is their choice.
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This is very true and there are a few layers here because it’s not so cut and dry.
During my discussions with atheists I have found that the reasons they became atheist are the following:
So there are reasons why people do the things they do and Then there’s Satan and his minions who actually posses people and I’ve mentioned this in a few other threads.
I have personally never encountered evil spirits or areas or people possessed and I don’t want to, but my priest has and he has told me many cases. Also a few family members have told me a few cases.
There are also many documentaries about this too, one of them is called the Skinwalker Ranch which is an area littered with UFOs and evil entities. The cameramen of that documentary left because they were getting horrifying dreams and some of them were getting skin marks when they were entering these UnHoly spaces.
So yeah, just like Miracles from God exist, there’s also these attacks from the Devil too which are real and terrifying for the people who experience them.
During my discussions with atheists I have found that the reasons they became atheist are the following:
- A bad example of another Christian influences them. This is common with family members typically who have treated their children horribly and in fact they have abused them. So the child that grows up, naturally hates Christianity.
- The history of Christians during certain points in history such as the crusades. The problem here is again that they confuse the actions of men with God and don’t realize that these so called Christians will have to answer to God one day too for their actions. There’s also the fact that other religions have done this or other atheist societies.These two examples by the way are the reason why no one should legislate Religious countries because you end up like extremist Muslim countries.
- Pride. This is usually the toughest because the other two are related to Hurt. But Pride is a tough one because they simply hate the idea of a Creator. This is the worst type of atheist typically. Very stubborn.
So there are reasons why people do the things they do and Then there’s Satan and his minions who actually posses people and I’ve mentioned this in a few other threads.
I have personally never encountered evil spirits or areas or people possessed and I don’t want to, but my priest has and he has told me many cases. Also a few family members have told me a few cases.
There are also many documentaries about this too, one of them is called the Skinwalker Ranch which is an area littered with UFOs and evil entities. The cameramen of that documentary left because they were getting horrifying dreams and some of them were getting skin marks when they were entering these UnHoly spaces.
So yeah, just like Miracles from God exist, there’s also these attacks from the Devil too which are real and terrifying for the people who experience them.
Y'all are too slow, so I'll go ahead and share my thoughts.
Evil people punish/torture themselves by experiencing delayed karma, just as those who experience appropriate justice during this earthly existence also punish themselves or reap what they have sown and send themselves to jail.
This view makes souls responsible for breaking the rules rather than blaming evil on the judges (or Judge/God) who enforce the rules.
The purpose of earthly punishment is to promote repentance, but the reason for retribution in hell is to attain justice. It is difficult to imagine, but somehow even someone as evil as Hitler will receive perfect justice, perhaps experiencing the agony of the millions of deaths he caused in accordance with the principal of “eye for eye” (MT 5:38), after which their souls are destroyed forever (per JN 17:12, RM 9:22, GL 6:8, PHP 3:19, 2THS 1:9 & 2PT 3:7).
Evil people punish/torture themselves by experiencing delayed karma, just as those who experience appropriate justice during this earthly existence also punish themselves or reap what they have sown and send themselves to jail.
This view makes souls responsible for breaking the rules rather than blaming evil on the judges (or Judge/God) who enforce the rules.
The purpose of earthly punishment is to promote repentance, but the reason for retribution in hell is to attain justice. It is difficult to imagine, but somehow even someone as evil as Hitler will receive perfect justice, perhaps experiencing the agony of the millions of deaths he caused in accordance with the principal of “eye for eye” (MT 5:38), after which their souls are destroyed forever (per JN 17:12, RM 9:22, GL 6:8, PHP 3:19, 2THS 1:9 & 2PT 3:7).
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No disagreement about hell, so I will continue with the original train of thought that began by citing three unavoidable beliefs and then two qualitatively opposite answers to the question regarding the meaning of life. Next I posited that sane or non-nihilistic people choose to believe that life has meaning or a moral dimension, and I noted four flavors regarding what warrants such faith: humanism. karmaism, naturalism and theism.
Atheists claim there is no more evidence for the existence of God, the Creator and Judge of humanity, than for the reality of obviously fictional entities, such as Odin or unicorns. However, four types of evidence or reasoning may be viewed as supporting rational belief in God, although they do not prove He exists: the unique universe, theocentric human history, existential need and moral conscience.
Current scientific theory states that the universe began with a “bang”, when a marble of matter or a singularity of energy suddenly exploded, and that it will end with a “whimper” when the stars eventually fade to darkness. This unique universe theory is compatible or consistent with belief in a God who created the universe “ex nihilo”, who sustains it by His power, and who will judge its moral agents at the end of time.
Current knowledge of world history suggests that humanity descended from one genetic source and evolved into various cultures. Throughout history humanity has perceived deity to be the ground of meaning and morality. Theocentric history reached its apex or spiritual climax with the NT teaching that there is one almighty and all-loving God, who desires all humanity to live in harmony on earth and also in heaven, and who allows humanity to experience earthly existence including pain and disappointment (KOTH) for the purpose of teaching them their need for Him (cf. HB 12:10).
Current existential reality indicates that mortals need God in order to obtain immortality, that morality needs God for a universal imperative and ultimate justice, and that the NT offers the best hope that this “duo of desirables” (DOD) or heaven and justice/hell can be attained. Just as physical needs are satisfied by material realities, perhaps our metaphysical needs indicate the reality of supernatural solutions (the God of the DOD).
Moral conscience indicates and logically requires accountability to a moral authority, and the supreme Authority would be God. Paul wrote (in RM 1:32 & 2:15) that people “know God’s decree that those who do evil deserve death” and that their consciences “show that the requirements of the [God’s moral] law are written on their hearts.” Our feeble attempts at earthly justice may reflect or serve as evidence of God’s perfect justice. This view is akin to Platonic idealism (cf. 1CR 13:12, HB 8:5, 9:23 & 10:1). We may perceive perfect justice partially (1CR 13:9-12) using spiritual eyes/intuition/a sixth sense along with inference, logic, and even imagination. [Slashes indicate equivalent terms.]
Atheists claim there is no more evidence for the existence of God, the Creator and Judge of humanity, than for the reality of obviously fictional entities, such as Odin or unicorns. However, four types of evidence or reasoning may be viewed as supporting rational belief in God, although they do not prove He exists: the unique universe, theocentric human history, existential need and moral conscience.
Current scientific theory states that the universe began with a “bang”, when a marble of matter or a singularity of energy suddenly exploded, and that it will end with a “whimper” when the stars eventually fade to darkness. This unique universe theory is compatible or consistent with belief in a God who created the universe “ex nihilo”, who sustains it by His power, and who will judge its moral agents at the end of time.
Current knowledge of world history suggests that humanity descended from one genetic source and evolved into various cultures. Throughout history humanity has perceived deity to be the ground of meaning and morality. Theocentric history reached its apex or spiritual climax with the NT teaching that there is one almighty and all-loving God, who desires all humanity to live in harmony on earth and also in heaven, and who allows humanity to experience earthly existence including pain and disappointment (KOTH) for the purpose of teaching them their need for Him (cf. HB 12:10).
Current existential reality indicates that mortals need God in order to obtain immortality, that morality needs God for a universal imperative and ultimate justice, and that the NT offers the best hope that this “duo of desirables” (DOD) or heaven and justice/hell can be attained. Just as physical needs are satisfied by material realities, perhaps our metaphysical needs indicate the reality of supernatural solutions (the God of the DOD).
Moral conscience indicates and logically requires accountability to a moral authority, and the supreme Authority would be God. Paul wrote (in RM 1:32 & 2:15) that people “know God’s decree that those who do evil deserve death” and that their consciences “show that the requirements of the [God’s moral] law are written on their hearts.” Our feeble attempts at earthly justice may reflect or serve as evidence of God’s perfect justice. This view is akin to Platonic idealism (cf. 1CR 13:12, HB 8:5, 9:23 & 10:1). We may perceive perfect justice partially (1CR 13:9-12) using spiritual eyes/intuition/a sixth sense along with inference, logic, and even imagination. [Slashes indicate equivalent terms.]
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I’ve had a few conversations with atheists over the years. One series of discussions involved a former coworker. I got to know him a little before engaging in any substantial conversations. He had been deeply disappointed by a religious family member in his youth. I find that is a common denominator with many who reject a loving God. They have been hurt or disappointed by their earthly father or another prominent male figure in their life. Many are simply looking for someone who “walks the walk.”
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James 1:14-15; 1 John 2:16 Each one is tempted when by his own evil desires he is lured away and enticed. Then after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death. For all that is in the world- the desires of the flesh, the desires of the eyes, and the pride of life- is not from the Father but from the world.
Thank you for the inspiration! I hope you and yours are well .
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My grandfather on my father's is born again (he went home to be with the Lord many years back) but he was very strict. My father is the first born so my grandfather placed a lot of responsibility on him which my father deeply resented. He also kind of strongly encouraged my father to go to church and teach a Sunday school class even though my father isn't saved, just knows Christian stuff.
When my grandfather came to visit us when I was a pre-teen, he presented the gospel to me - and whether I really understood it or not (I didn't, lol!) he lead me into the salvation prayer. Which of course didn't work. I wasn't saved because of that. So I can see how my grandfather was with my own father. A bit pushy! (But means well - didn't want us going to hell.)
But for whatever reason, I didn't become an atheist, maybe because I didn't always have the everyday influence of my grandfather that my father had?
But when I was 17 years old, I truly got saved! I asked God if anyone I know prayed for me and He laid it on my heart that it was my grandfather!
So pray for your loved ones, and don't stop. I've been praying for my family over the years. So far, my Mom got truly saved, so I'm not giving up hope for my father.
🧇
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This evidence is not proof, but because this hope and belief are based on evidence and logic, it is rational rather than “blind”, and it is made even more intellectually defensible by acknowledging ways that God might yet be disproved, which would appear to include the following:
1. If atheists or anti-Christians created eternal life, because the Bible teaches that eternal life is God’s gift only to believers in Him (JN 3:16).
2. If the body of Jesus of Nazareth were discovered in a tomb, because Paul stated that if Christ is not resurrected, then faith is useless (1CR 15:14).
3. If it were proven that moral free will (MFW) is an illusion, because the premise of biblical morality is that human souls are accountable (DT 30:19-20).
4. If human-like beings on another planet had no salvation history involving God and Christ, because the Bible teaches that God is Lord of all (PHP 2:9-11). (Caveat: If they are included in the Great Commission, their history would be like the OT.)
5. If God could prove His existence to people without abrogating free will (cf. 2CR 5:7), but apparently God performs miracles only as necessary to accomplish His plan of salvation (see Part VI).
6. If it were proved that the universe is not created, because resurrection or re-creation presupposes creation and thus a Creator (ACTS 17:24-31).
1. If atheists or anti-Christians created eternal life, because the Bible teaches that eternal life is God’s gift only to believers in Him (JN 3:16).
2. If the body of Jesus of Nazareth were discovered in a tomb, because Paul stated that if Christ is not resurrected, then faith is useless (1CR 15:14).
3. If it were proven that moral free will (MFW) is an illusion, because the premise of biblical morality is that human souls are accountable (DT 30:19-20).
4. If human-like beings on another planet had no salvation history involving God and Christ, because the Bible teaches that God is Lord of all (PHP 2:9-11). (Caveat: If they are included in the Great Commission, their history would be like the OT.)
5. If God could prove His existence to people without abrogating free will (cf. 2CR 5:7), but apparently God performs miracles only as necessary to accomplish His plan of salvation (see Part VI).
6. If it were proved that the universe is not created, because resurrection or re-creation presupposes creation and thus a Creator (ACTS 17:24-31).
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Witnessing to atheists, soon you will be arguing with atheists over the truth of the Bible.
1Ti 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils.
2Ti 4:2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.
2Ti 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
2Ti 4:4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.
The new age christianity that interprets the Bible according to the occult and evolution, and people are evolving to be spiritual, and Jesus became an ascended master, and there is no personal God, and the New Age Christ is the next world teacher.
The time will come that people will not want to hear the truth of the Bible but the new age christianity.
Which people in the Science community are saying modern Science is giving the correct interpretation of the Bible and the Christians are interpreting the Bible wrong.
So soon the Christians will be arguing with the atheists over the correct interpretation of the Bible.
But of course we should witness to the atheists but it will be more harder, and them more stubborn as time goes on.
1Ti 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils.
2Ti 4:2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.
2Ti 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
2Ti 4:4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.
The new age christianity that interprets the Bible according to the occult and evolution, and people are evolving to be spiritual, and Jesus became an ascended master, and there is no personal God, and the New Age Christ is the next world teacher.
The time will come that people will not want to hear the truth of the Bible but the new age christianity.
Which people in the Science community are saying modern Science is giving the correct interpretation of the Bible and the Christians are interpreting the Bible wrong.
So soon the Christians will be arguing with the atheists over the correct interpretation of the Bible.
But of course we should witness to the atheists but it will be more harder, and them more stubborn as time goes on.
Very true. I agree, and unfortunately Christians may cross the line between discussion and argument with Christians. This one reason I said on the Kerygma thread that the kerygma/GRFS should be every Christian’s creed, and only belief in this crucial truth should be viewed as a test for orthodoxy or heresy.
As Paul wrote in Romans 10:9, “If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” Conversely, judgments concerning a person’s spiritual orientation or ultimate destiny should not be made on the basis of didachaic or secondary doctrines. (If any judgment is made, it should begin with a self-examination per MT 7:1&5, 2CR 13:5-8).
A major reason many Christians throughout history have not manifested the love and unity of God’s Spirit (EPH 4:3) as well as they should is because of failure to realize this truth. If they did, it would free them to speak honestly and fellowship without becoming unduly upset about relatively minor issues. They would receive God’s blessing as peacemakers, who draw inclusive circles around people based on the kerygma rather than denominational lines between them due to didachaic differences. Jesus prayed for spiritual unity (cf. JN 17:20-23, “May they be one…”).
As Paul wrote in Romans 10:9, “If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” Conversely, judgments concerning a person’s spiritual orientation or ultimate destiny should not be made on the basis of didachaic or secondary doctrines. (If any judgment is made, it should begin with a self-examination per MT 7:1&5, 2CR 13:5-8).
A major reason many Christians throughout history have not manifested the love and unity of God’s Spirit (EPH 4:3) as well as they should is because of failure to realize this truth. If they did, it would free them to speak honestly and fellowship without becoming unduly upset about relatively minor issues. They would receive God’s blessing as peacemakers, who draw inclusive circles around people based on the kerygma rather than denominational lines between them due to didachaic differences. Jesus prayed for spiritual unity (cf. JN 17:20-23, “May they be one…”).
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