Apostle? or sent one?

[garee]

Your position is very easily refuted.

John wrote the Revelation. The Revelation includes a description of the Lamb opening the seals of a book. If the book that the Lamb was opening was the Revelation, it could not contain a narrative from the perspective of someone opening that book.

The same person who wrote it. God's word is self interpreting. We study it in order to seek His approval

Yes the unseen Lord that works in the believer opens His understanding to give us his the signified understanding of the parables. No need to wonder .

The whole time period of Kings in Israel "the abomination of desolation" that time period was signified in parables Without parable Christ spoke not.

Hebrew 9:8-9 The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing: Which was a figure (parable) for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;

 

[Dino246]

The same person who wrote it. God's word is self interpreting. We study it in order to seek His approval

"The same person who wrote it"? What is that supposed to mean? John wrote the Revelation. John isn't the Lamb.

Yes the unseen Lord that works in the believer opens His understanding to give us his the signified understanding of the parables. No need to wonder .

Irrelevant. This doesn't say anything about the book of Revelation.

The whole time period of Kings in Israel "the abomination of desolation" that time period was signified in parables Without parable Christ spoke not.

The time of the Kings is not "the abomination of desolation". Nothing in Scripture supports that view. Nor was that period signified in parables... at all.

You keep quoting one verse and ignoring its context. Because of that, your understanding of the quoted verse is simply wrong.

Hebrew 9:8-9 The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing: Which was a figure (parable) for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;

Also irrelevant. It would be helpful if your comments were relevant and coherent. I have come to believe that achieving that is beyond your ability because you refuse to learn.

 

[garee]

"Dino246, post: 4377725, member: 223333"]"The same person who wrote it"? What is that supposed to mean? John wrote the Revelation. John isn't the Lamb.

John penned it. God moved his mind and hand. The lamb of God the Holy Spirt that indwells the believer alone is able to open the book of prophecy.

And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; Revelation 5:9

The time of the Kings is not "the abomination of desolation". Nothing in Scripture supports that view. Nor was that period signified in parables... at all.

What's your idea of the abomination of desolation .

"The abomination of desolation". was Kings in Israel. The reformation restored the government of God to before there were kings in Israel "

And Kings in Israel the Abomination Of Desolation were used as a figure or a parable for that time period. you just refuse to mix faith the gospel understanding.

The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing: Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience; Hebrews 9:8-9

You keep quoting one verse and ignoring its context. Because of that, your understanding of the quoted verse is simply wrong.

I quoted many verses. You keep saying I quote one verse and ignore its context. But then offer nothing to prove you point.

 

[Dino246]

The lamb of God the Holy Spirt that indwells the believer alone is able to open the book of prophecy.

You clearly didn't think through my refutation. Try again.

What's your idea of the abomination of desolation .

My idea is what Luke and Matthew together tell me.

"The abomination of desolation". was Kings in Israel. The reformation restored the government of God to before there were kings in Israel "

Again, nothing in Scripture supports that idea. The period of the Judges was a period of idolatry and bondage for Israel.

And Kings in Israel the Abomination Of Desolation were used as a figure or a parable for that time period. you just refuse to mix faith the gospel understanding.

I refuse to "mix faith" with nonsense.

I quoted many verses. You keep saying I quote one verse and ignore its context. But then offer nothing to prove you point.

I have shown you the relevant verses already. You ignored them then, just as you ignore everything else I explain to you. I see no reason to think you will accept the truth if I show you yet again.

 

[GraceAndTruth]

Apostle also means "messenger" as well as "sent one". We know from scripture that EVERY apostle was chosen by JESUS PERSONALLY. A PERSONAL encounter. Since that is the criteria for an apostle of Christ, we know that there were no others chosen except the 12 we honor today. Judas was chosen, but for the purpose of betraying, he was a vessel of destruction. Acts 1:16

 

[GraceAndTruth]

If there is a question of what the "abomination of desolation" is.......refer to the Olivet Discourse in Matthew 24:15 and then the harmonizing gospel of Luke. 21:20; Luke calls the abomination an army. As you know this discourse is about a future tribulation. (future when it was written, history for us) Matthew, Mark and Luke each have this discourse and when harmonized they enhance each other.

I'm late to this discussion, so have no idea why the Kings of Israel are called an abomination by Garee nor how they got into the Olivet Discourse. These gospels are the only place where the term 'abomination of desolation' is used other than Daniel 12:11 which also refers to an army. (It was 1290 days from the the cross (sacrifice abolished) to the Roman army setting a siege on Jerusalem. If anyone survived to the 1335th day, he is blessed (the army ceased the seige 45 days later and went back to Rome) 1290+45=1335 Reference: Josephus

 

[garee]

If there is a question of what the "abomination of desolation" is.......refer to the Olivet Discourse in Matthew 24:15 and then the harmonizing gospel of Luke. 21:20; Luke calls the abomination an army. As you know this discourse is about a future tribulation. (future when it was written, history for us) Matthew, Mark and Luke each have this discourse and when harmonized they enhance each other.

I'm late to this discussion, so have no idea why the Kings of Israel are called an abomination by Garee nor how they got into the Olivet Discourse. These gospels are the only place where the term 'abomination of desolation' is used other than Daniel 12:11 which also refers to an army. (It was 1290 days from the the cross (sacrifice abolished) to the Roman army setting a siege on Jerusalem. If anyone survived to the 1335th day, he is blessed (the army ceased the seige 45 days later and went back to Rome) 1290+45=1335 Reference: Josephus

I would offer. The abomination of desolation is making desolate or void the unseen "things of God"(faith) . It is the things seen the temporal standing in the holy unseen eternal place of faith The unseen glory of God. .(Kings in Israel for one)

It is also known as blasphemy, violating the first commandment. In Mathew 16 Peter was forgiven of his blasphemy against the Son of man Jesus seen . Today that would not be possible .No forgiveness against the Holy Spirit not seen.

He has given us a great tool to help us keep our focus.

2 Corinthians 4:18 While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.

 

[garee]

Apostle also means "messenger" as well as "sent one". We know from scripture that EVERY apostle was chosen by JESUS PERSONALLY. A PERSONAL encounter. Since that is the criteria for an apostle of Christ, we know that there were no others chosen except the 12 we honor today. Judas was chosen, but for the purpose of betraying, he was a vessel of destruction. Acts 1:16

The twelve were chosen for the revealing of the bride of Christ in Revelation 21. There are 27 listed to include the apostle Jesus.

The word mean sent one with no other meaning ,he sends us out two by two with the gospel just as back then/

Twelve out of thirteen just as tribes . Tribes are used to represent the Old testament born again saints as gates to the city prepared as his bride. Apostles twelve out of thirteen used to represent the walls .the living temple of God not made with human hands. made up of both gates and walls as one bride. .

The tribe of Daniel used to represent the spirit of Judgment and uses Judas to show the working out of the spirit of judgement. Those who fall backward and break the neck .A metaphor used through the bible, again to represent the Spirit of Judgement of the non redeemed .

Genesis 49:16-17 King James Version (KJV) Dan shall judge his people, as one of the tribes of Israel. Dan shall be a serpent by the way, an adder in the path, that biteth the horse heels, so that his rider shall fall backward.

In that way the believer will not fall into judgment. . The poison of false apostles called a brood of vipers , is simply another gospel, another Christ. it will not harm them who have been redeemed by the lamb

Just Judas the false apostle is shown under that Judgment .In the end he did break his neck when he hung himself. That shows us he was not redeemed by the lamb

John 18:5-7 King James Version (KJV) They answered him, Jesus of Nazareth. Jesus saith unto them, I am he. And Judas also, which betrayed him, stood with them. As soon then as he had said unto them, I am he, they went backward, and fell to the ground.

Powerful word "I am He" . His tongue the power of life and death

It was the one reason he chose Twelve. Not to be venerated above any other redeemed believers.

Revelation 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

Revelation 21:9 And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife.

According to the golden measure of faith the unseen work of God working in the believer. One bride, the church.

Revelation 21: 12-14 And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel: On the east three gates; on the north three gates; on the south three gates; and on the west three gates. And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

 

[GraceAndTruth]

I would offer. The abomination of desolation is making desolate or void the unseen "things of God"(faith) . It is the things seen the temporal standing in the holy unseen eternal place of faith The unseen glory of God. .(Kings in Israel for one)

It is also known as blasphemy, violating the first commandment. In Mathew 16 Peter was forgiven of his blasphemy against the Son of man Jesus seen . Today that would not be possible .No forgiveness against the Holy Spirit not seen.

He has given us a great tool to help us keep our focus.

2 Corinthians 4:18 While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.

No offense, but.....First rule of bible study, first mention of a subject, determines the definition. The TWO words used together indicate an entity that makes desolation from being cut off. (as in a seige) I referred you to Daniel 12:11 as well as the Discourse in Matt and Luke. Luke states PLAINLY that the abomination of desolation IS an army. To say that there is no other meaning to the word "apostle", as you did, I'd like to suggest you use the STRONG'S EXHAUSTIVE CONCORDANCE (a MUST for bible STUDY) available on-line for free. I'm not trying to be snotty about this but I am concerned that you have taken a wrong turn here. Whatever theory you are presenting I have no idea as I cannot tell from your answer to me......it is like they are disjointed but I suppose that is because I have not had a background on your thinking.

Just remember..............It's an ARMY, Garee!!

 

[garee]

No offense, but.....First rule of bible study, first mention of a subject, determines the definition. The TWO words used together indicate an entity that makes desolation from being cut off. (as in a seige) I referred you to Daniel 12:11 as well as the Discourse in Matt and Luke. Luke states PLAINLY that the abomination of desolation IS an army. To say that there is no other meaning to the word "apostle", as you did, I'd like to suggest you use the STRONG'S EXHAUSTIVE CONCORDANCE (a MUST for bible STUDY) available on-line for free. I'm not trying to be snotty about this but I am concerned that you have taken a wrong turn here. Whatever theory you are presenting I have no idea as I cannot tell from your answer to me......it is like they are disjointed but I suppose that is because I have not had a background on your thinking.

Just remember..............It's an ARMY, Garee!!

Thanks for the reply

I do use the Strong's as a private interpretation . The word used for army is different that the word desolate. It could be attributed to a legion of lying spirits that make the word of desolate The number does no define the word desolate, void made to no effect.

Kings in Israel as a pagan foundation (out of sight out of mind) made the word of God to no effect.

A good example of that evil of faithless men is shown. in Jeremiah. Verses 1-2 defining the workers that make desolate . . the authority of all things written in the law and prophets (Sola scriptura)

Jeremiah 44:1-2King James Version (KJV)

The word that came to Jeremiah concerning all the Jews which dwell in the land of Egypt, which dwell at Migdol, and at Tahpanhes, and at Noph, and in the country of Pathros, saying, Thus saith the Lord of hosts, the God of Israel; Ye have seen all the evil that I have brought upon Jerusalem, and upon all the cities of Judah; and, behold, this day they are a desolation, and no man dwelleth therein


Jeremiah 44: 16-17 As for the word that thou hast spoken unto us in the name of the Lord, we will not hearken unto thee. But we will certainly do whatsoever thing goeth forth out of our own mouth, to burn incense unto the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto her, as we have done, we, and our fathers, our kings, and our princes, in the cities of Judah, and in the streets of Jerusalem: for then had we plenty of victuals, and were well, and saw no evil.

Kings things seen in Israel the abomination of desolation. Kings standing in the holy unseen faith of Christ of any nation .Same abomination, a whole army

 

[GraceAndTruth]

garee........I give up. Don't shoot.

 

[Dino246]

Thanks for the reply

I do use the Strong's as a private interpretation . The word used for army is different that the word desolate. It could be attributed to a legion of lying spirits that make the word of desolate The number does no define the word desolate, void made to no effect.

Kings in Israel as a pagan foundation (out of sight out of mind) made the word of God to no effect.

A good example of that evil of faithless men is shown. in Jeremiah. Verses 1-2 defining the workers that make desolate . . the authority of all things written in the law and prophets (Sola scriptura)

Jeremiah 44:1-2King James Version (KJV)

The word that came to Jeremiah concerning all the Jews which dwell in the land of Egypt, which dwell at Migdol, and at Tahpanhes, and at Noph, and in the country of Pathros, saying, Thus saith the Lord of hosts, the God of Israel; Ye have seen all the evil that I have brought upon Jerusalem, and upon all the cities of Judah; and, behold, this day they are a desolation, and no man dwelleth therein


Jeremiah 44: 16-17 As for the word that thou hast spoken unto us in the name of the Lord, we will not hearken unto thee. But we will certainly do whatsoever thing goeth forth out of our own mouth, to burn incense unto the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto her, as we have done, we, and our fathers, our kings, and our princes, in the cities of Judah, and in the streets of Jerusalem: for then had we plenty of victuals, and were well, and saw no evil.

Kings things seen in Israel the abomination of desolation. Kings standing in the holy unseen faith of Christ of any nation .Same abomination, a whole army

Garee, you argue as though your opinions are statements directly from Scripture when, of course, they aren't. Many of your opinions are objectively incorrect, as is the case here. The 'abomination of desolation' has nothing to do with the kings of Israel. It appears in Daniel, Matthew, and Luke; you must get the meaning of the term from those sources.

"Abomination of desolation" is a compound term; its meaning is specific, and although you can learn something about its meaning by looking at the individual words, you aren't going to grasp the whole sense by doing so. It's the same as with the word "butterfly". You can understand "butter" and "fly" and know essentially nothing about butterflies.

 

[garee]

Garee, you argue as though your opinions are statements directly from Scripture when, of course, they aren't. Many of your opinions are objectively incorrect, as is the case here. The 'abomination of desolation' has nothing to do with the kings of Israel. It appears in Daniel, Matthew, and Luke; you must get the meaning of the term from those sources.

"Abomination of desolation" is a compound term; its meaning is specific, and although you can learn something about its meaning by looking at the individual words, you aren't going to grasp the whole sense by doing so. It's the same as with the word "butterfly". You can understand "butter" and "fly" and know essentially nothing about butterflies.

Of course they are directly from scripture ... . to make desolate is to make without effect.

When Jesus walked out of the temple made with human hands a abomination of desolation that housed the Kings a admonition of desolation he declare it desolate. Believers are the temple of God not made with human hands

Mathew 23: 38-39 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate. For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

Making the word of God desolate is an abomination of desolation or blasphemy.

"Abomination of desolation" are simply the temporal things seen standing in the place of our unseen eternal place of God, the one source of faith .

Learn how to mix faith. 2 Corinthians 4:18 the "key"

You can understand "abomination "and "desolation "and know essentially it has nothing to do with butterflies or Caterpillar. "Cat" and "pillar" .

 

[Dino246]

Of course they are directly from scripture ... . to make desolate is to make without effect.

When Jesus walked out of the temple made with human hands a abomination of desolation that housed the Kings a admonition of desolation he declare it desolate. Believers are the temple of God not made with human hands

Mathew 23: 38-39 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate. For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

Making the word of God desolate is an abomination of desolation or blasphemy.

"Abomination of desolation" are simply the temporal things seen standing in the place of our unseen eternal place of God, the one source of faith .

Learn how to mix faith. 2 Corinthians 4:18 the "key"

You can understand "abomination "and "desolation "and know essentially it has nothing to do with butterflies or Caterpillar. "Cat" and "pillar" .

I see no point in perpetuating a circular argument.

 

[garee]

I see no point in perpetuating a circular argument.

Then to make void or no effect is the proper understanding for "desolate"??? laws provide circular reasoning. They complete the circuit.

 

[Dino246]

Then to make void or no effect is the proper understanding for "desolate"??? laws provide circular reasoning. They complete the circuit.

Clearly, you still do not understand what "circular reasoning" means.

 

[Sipsey]

Clearly, you still do not understand what "circular reasoning" means.

It’s the law Dino,
don’t you see?
It completes the circuit,
for you and for me.

 

[garee]

Clearly, you still do not understand what "circular reasoning" means.

The law of Faith

No faith

 

[GraceAndTruth]

apóstolos

The term apostle is derived from Classical Greek ἀπόστολος (apóstolos), meaning "one who is sent off"
So "apostle" is an anglicized word for the Greek apostolos. ' Sent one' is the tranlation from the Greek.

An argument over a WORD that has the same meaning is ridiculous even for these forums.

and devolve into "circular reasoning???"

 

[Dino246]

The law of Faith

No faith

Congratulations! You've learned how to search, copy and paste a few GIF's.

Sadly, that still doesn't mean that you understand the term.