Apostle Paul On Tongues In 1 Corinthians

[reneweddaybyday]

The description of being born again by the Holy Spirit is not talking about tongues.

The concept is the same in that God does something internally within the born again one which cannot be measured with scientific instruments ... no matter how sensitive the calibration of the instrument.

By this logic, when there has been a healing by God it cannot be confirmed to be a healing, the body would not be changed it would be the same, since it was done by God who is spirit. Yet if someone is in fact healed what was once a health problem is gone and this is confirmed by our senses not apart form it.

Just as the healing is confirmed by our senses because we can see healing in the person who was once in need of healing, the manifestation of kinds of tongues is confirmed by hearing.

Acts 10:

44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.

45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.

46 For they heard them speak with tongues,


How do you explain Genesis 1 to a scientist who has no faith? The scientist asks you how did God create the universe and all that is therein and your response is And God said ...

What you understand by faith, the scientist can neither prove nor disprove by means of scientific methods or instruments.

The manifestation of this supposed unintelligible prayer language is not only spiritual, invisible to the human senses, it is fact audible and relates to the senses and the mind that man is given. In this way it becomes something that can be either shown to be true language or not just like healing is or it is not.

What you refer to as "unintelligible prayer language", God refers to as the manifestation of the Spirit kinds of tongues (1 Cor 12:7 & 10) when He works within the believer to energize.

And yes, the ears hear the manifestation because that is the organ of perception in the physical realm by which the manifestation is confirmed.

The physical ear being affected does not negate additional effect the manifestation has on the inward man of the one who speaks in tongues.

As prayer with the understanding is to the heart, mind, and soul of the believer (the outward man), so the manifestation of tongues is to the inward man of the believer.

 

[UnderGrace]

What happened in the Book of Acts is not what Paul was dealing with at the church in Corinth so do not confuse the two.

I am talking about the present day manifestation and if you go back in this thread you will find a you tube video posted by me of a women speaking in a angelic unintelligible prayer language.

Watch it and then we can converse further.

The concept is the same in that God does something internally within the born again one which cannot be measured with scientific instruments ... no matter how sensitive the calibration of the instrument.




Just as the healing is confirmed by our senses because we can see healing in the person who was once in need of healing, the manifestation of kinds of tongues is confirmed by hearing.

Acts 10:

44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.

45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.

46 For they heard them speak with tongues,


How do you explain Genesis 1 to a scientist who has no faith? The scientist asks you how did God create the universe and all that is therein and your response is And God said ...

What you understand by faith, the scientist can neither prove nor disprove by means of scientific methods or instruments.




What you refer to as "unintelligible prayer language", God refers to as the manifestation of the Spirit kinds of tongues (1 Cor 12:7 & 10) when He works within the believer to energize.

And yes, the ears hear the manifestation because that is the organ of perception in the physical realm by which the manifestation is confirmed.

The physical ear being affected does not negate additional effect the manifestation has on the inward man of the one who speaks in tongues.

As prayer with the understanding is to the heart, mind, and soul of the believer (the outward man), so the manifestation of tongues is to the inward man of the believer.

 

[hornetguy]

It is interesting to me that people have to be "coached" to speak in tongues. I've heard it from nearly everyone that insists that it is the first evidence you have been "baptized in the spirit".

Read in the Word... show me anywhere that believers that received the gift of the Spirit and started speaking in tongues were encouraged to do so, in ANY way? When the Spirit came upon them, they started speaking in tongues. They didn't have to "practice", or be told to "just open your mouth and start speaking"... in other words be "taught" how to do it.

When I was younger, I met a girl involved in the WOW (word over the world) ministry. She convinced me that I should speak in tongues. She coached me on how to get started, and I prayed about it, and tried to open my mouth and start uttering noises........... nothing. After about a week of prayer and trying, I figured out I wasn't meant to do so. Plus, it made me wonder if any of the others were meant to do so, either.

I'm not saying that everyone that says they speak in tongues is wrong... I'm just saying there is WAY too much emphasis put on something that even Paul said was one of the least desirable gifts of the Spirit. .

I figure that if the Spirit wants me to speak or pray in tongues, it will just happen on its own, with no "trying" on my part..

 

[Cee]

I agree with you, my emphasis is on prophesy actually.

It is interesting to me that people have to be "coached" to speak in tongues. I've heard it from nearly everyone that insists that it is the first evidence you have been "baptized in the spirit".

Read in the Word... show me anywhere that believers that received the gift of the Spirit and started speaking in tongues were encouraged to do so, in ANY way? When the Spirit came upon them, they started speaking in tongues. They didn't have to "practice", or be told to "just open your mouth and start speaking"... in other words be "taught" how to do it.

When I was younger, I met a girl involved in the WOW (word over the world) ministry. She convinced me that I should speak in tongues. She coached me on how to get started, and I prayed about it, and tried to open my mouth and start uttering noises........... nothing. After about a week of prayer and trying, I figured out I wasn't meant to do so. Plus, it made me wonder if any of the others were meant to do so, either.

I'm not saying that everyone that says they speak in tongues is wrong... I'm just saying there is WAY too much emphasis put on something that even Paul said was one of the least desirable gifts of the Spirit. .

I figure that if the Spirit wants me to speak or pray in tongues, it will just happen on its own, with no "trying" on my part..

 

[reneweddaybyday]

What happened in the Book of Acts is not what Paul was dealing with at the church in Corinth so do not confuse the two.

In 1 Corinthians, Paul heard the believers speaking in tongues (the genuine manifestation). However, it appears the believers were speaking in tongues out loud at the same time in the congregation. So Paul was dealing with the improper usage of the genuine manifestation and he gives instruction as to the proper utilization in the church, as well as in the private prayer life of the believer.

That we have the same thing going on in our day and time is indicative of neglect of Scripture on the subject.

I am aware that there are some who attempt to make up unintelligible words using their understanding in an effort to appear to be speaking in tongues. However, this is not speaking in tongues as there is no energizing by God in the person. And I do not believe Paul addresses this activity in 1 Cor 12-14.

In 1 Cor 12-14, Paul is speaking of the genuine manifestation and gives instruction as to its proper utilization in the church.

I am talking about the present day manifestation and if you go back in this thread you will find a you tube video posted by me of a women speaking in a angelic unintelligible prayer language.

Watch it and then we can converse further.

I did not watch the video when you first posted it and I am uncertain whether my watching it will add to the discussion.

However, what post number is it?

 

[eph610]

It is interesting to me that people have to be "coached" to speak in tongues. I've heard it from nearly everyone that insists that it is the first evidence you have been "baptized in the spirit".

Read in the Word... show me anywhere that believers that received the gift of the Spirit and started speaking in tongues were encouraged to do so, in ANY way? When the Spirit came upon them, they started speaking in tongues. They didn't have to "practice", or be told to "just open your mouth and start speaking"... in other words be "taught" how to do it.

When I was younger, I met a girl involved in the WOW (word over the world) ministry. She convinced me that I should speak in tongues. She coached me on how to get started, and I prayed about it, and tried to open my mouth and start uttering noises........... nothing. After about a week of prayer and trying, I figured out I wasn't meant to do so. Plus, it made me wonder if any of the others were meant to do so, either.

I'm not saying that everyone that says they speak in tongues is wrong... I'm just saying there is WAY too much emphasis put on something that even Paul said was one of the least desirable gifts of the Spirit. .

100% agreed!
Jesus said that the first initial evidence of the Baptism of the Holy Spirit would be the power to witness, not speaking in tongues.

Did he say wait in Jerusalem and you shall speak in new tongues? No he said wait in Jerusalem and I will send the promise of my Father upon you so that you be clothed with power from on high.

We had a girl in service about 3 months ago that was saved and my wife and I were praying with her in front of the rest of the congregation and she told me, I want the baptism of the Holy Spirit,. I told her to stop asking me and aks the Father, because every good gift and every perfect gift comes from above. She asked the Father and My wife and I laid hands on her and after we removed our hands she began speaking in tongues immediately....she spent the next 15 minutes speaking in tongues and then interpreting them and it was edifying to the church.

You dont coach anybody as you said, Let the Holy Spirit be the Holy Spirit. I do believe the only human interaction required in the Baptism of the Holy Spirit is the laying on of hands, because the book of Acts shows us that.

I think another evidence is the manifestation of the fruit of the Spirit, because if you don't have love, you have nothing but a flesh show.

Other people's mileage will and does vary...

 

[RobbyEarl]

Biblical evidence of the baptism of the Holy Spirit is always with speaking in tongues. It is the gift and not fruit of the Holy Spirit. Fruit is a totally different matter. How did they know they were baptized in the Holy Spirit in the NT, the did not have fruit immediately, they knew because they spoke in tongues. amen

 

[garee]

Hi Kohelet. Thanks for your reply

This would be an excellent point if we could find it in Scripture. For one thing, there is no need to introduce the idea of dialects because the Greek γλῶσσα (glossa) doesn't mean dialect; it means either a language, a nation or the thing we have in our heads and speak and taste with. But you actually say "human languages of different dialects", so I'm not sure what you mean. We speak of dialects of languages, not the other way around. Anyway, let's just say "tongues" for the languages Paul is writing about, since that's the word he uses.

Good point, I would agree tongues would be a better word for “another language”. Dialect can mean for instance; being politically correct. It can be like a parable with hidden meanings. A difference like between American English and the Australian dialect, a little work has to be done to interpret some sayings.

Isa 28:11 For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.

Paul says how he both prays and sings using this tongue, not understanding what he is saying, and also prays and sings with his mind, understanding what he is saying. And he says he's going to keep it up (14:14.15). What's more, he thanks God that he does so "more than all of [the believers at Corinth]" (v.18) and says not to forbid speaking in tongues

I don’t see the idea of performing those things and not understating what he is saying. There is no fruit in doing so. Fruit is made for two.... like for instance Adam and Eve. Fruit would edify the church His bride .The word two represents the church.

It would seem that the spiritual gifts are “two fold”, they would edify the church as two ....where two or three gather together in the authority or name of God he is there working to comfort both as coming from the same faith (Christ) working in both.

I think that two fold principle of edifying the church (2 or three people counting Paul ) can be seen in Romans 1: 9-13

This is where according to Paul’s God given desire to pray for another, the desire as spiritual gift is Paul in its self a gift. And receives an answer he is sent in regard to verse 10 where it says : “if by any means now at length I might have a prosperous journey by the will of God to come unto you”.

The person he is being led to who is also praying, as a spiritual gift. Praying is one spiritual gift that does not seem to get much mention from my experiences.

God’s mutual will is for both, the one that he is sending..... and those who share what he sends with Paul, the will of God.

The words let it be would seem to be the law or they would be speaking into the air. I don't see the idea of self self edification as a option. And the let one interpret is the one receiving the word of God in his own language .Not the one speaking, he knows what he is saying being moved by the Holy Spirit beforehand . And not as with Balaam's donkey where he put His words on the tongue of that creature in order to stop the false prophet .

1Co 14:27 If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret.

It would be the beginning of any spiritual gift .This is to include a tongues .... the two fold principle must be applied .The idea of self-edification as an outward sign seems foreign to the gospel. Other than producing a form of pride what would be the person for exulting oneself.?

For I long to see you, that I may impart unto you “some spiritual gift”, to the end ye may be established; Rom 1:11

There he says that the other person might be established and then show where the fruit comes in for the purpose to edify the church (two or more gathering together in the name/ authority of God). Not the authority of Paul or the one who hears the tongue in their own language.. Again to mutually include Paul as part of that spiritual gift in the end giving both the comfort of the Holy Spirit the mutual work of one faith in respect to Christ who is the anointing Holy Spirit of God which the word Christ denotes..

That is, that I may be comforted together with you by the mutual faith both of you and me.Rom 1:12

He then I believe explained just as he would for tongues (same principle)why he spoke in tongues (God interpreted what he desired Paul say and interpreted it another tongue ). This is why he spoke more than others he was moved to places where the Gentiles where, it was needed to promote the gospel during that time of refomation. .Paul was designated as the apostle to the Gentiles.The message in Roman 1 could of been applied even there in Romans to those of another tongue.

Rom 1:13 Now I would not have you ignorant, brethren, that oftentimes I purposed to come unto you, (but was let hitherto,) that I might have some fruit among you also, even as among other Gentiles

Singing I would think would always be using sounds that are in respect to certain thoughts .Singing Psalms which is prophecy by revelation, or the blast of the trumpet signaling it was the last day for the inhabitants of Jericho when Joshua blew the trumpet the walls of Jericho fell .

So when Paul says how he both prays and sings using this tongue, it means he understanding what he is saying.

It would seem to work the other way where Paul is given an understanding in response to the gospel he is offering. That is if there is fruit. If no fruit is given the person is left to try an understand what the spirit is saying and cannot ask for clarification. Like, no comprendo (no understanding Spanish) or Nur ein paar Worte auf Deutsch(German ) or me biyn (Greek ) it would be like speaking into the air.

I don’t think Paul would speak what God put on his mind and turn around and walk way without helping further the understanding and call that a mutual work of God, as a spiritual gift .

 

[RBA238]

Did someone interpret what they said?

The Lord himself knew what they said himself.

 

[garee]

Biblical evidence of the baptism of the Holy Spirit is always with speaking in tongues. It is the gift and not fruit of the Holy Spirit. Fruit is a totally different matter. How did they know they were baptized in the Holy Spirit in the NT, the did not have fruit immediately, they knew because they spoke in tongues. amen

I see that a little differently. Not a salvation issue but perhaps a better more informed understanding. Tongues was originally designed as sign as evidence to those who believe not (no faith) . Prophecy for those who did believe (have a faith, not of their own selves.) It worked two ways with Peter . One to verify unbelief as a sign, and the other to confirm belief as prophecy, the work of Christ’s faith .(not seen)

There is no outward fleshly evidence that a person has the Holy Spirit to include water baptism.

The unseen sign is a person can believe God to the salvation of their soul as he gives them His faith to make it possible. For we walk by faith the unseen not that seen by the experiences we have. . Experience is not the validator of God’s truth.
His word, prophecy is.

2Co 5:7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight

Walking by sight after experiences we have is the cause of the fall . God who has no form wanted Adam and Eve to trust his voice not experience the wage of sin eternal separation by walking by sight.

I would think a person would have to first define the differences between the words, .miracle or the word sign, and the word wonder. Seeing it is not all one thing. We cannot create or own wonders (the faith principle) as if we were the source of faith .That belongs to the faith minister churches that say name it claim it .You can’t do a work of saying words without meaning and say there are evident of the Holy Spirit. That would seem to be self-filled prophecy. Again the unseen sign is a person can believe God to the salvation of their souls.

Christ says its an evil generation (natural man) that does seek after signs as wonders.

And without they will not believe. Because they cannot.

Joh 4:48 Then said Jesus unto him, Except ye see signs and wonders, ye will not believe.

Matthew 12:39 But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas:

The last sign that made people wonder and therefore belief that not seen (the faith principle) .

 

[UnderGrace]

The Lord himself knew what they said himself.

And how does this edify the person? Edification is learning and understanding about God, not about a good feeling inside.

 

[eph610]

Biblical evidence of the baptism of the Holy Spirit is always with speaking in tongues. It is the gift and not fruit of the Holy Spirit. Fruit is a totally different matter. How did they know they were baptized in the Holy Spirit in the NT, the did not have fruit immediately, they knew because they spoke in tongues. amen

Another fallacy spread by communicated Bible Knowledge and people trying to Lord over their experience over another.

Jesus said that power would come first not tongues. GO with Jesus and not what the Swaggert camp and Assembly of God, Church of God, Apostolic Faith Church, Word of Faith and other movements state.

First came the power and part of that power is having perfect love shed abroad in your heart for people, then came the tongues, then came the Word preached in demonstration of power and Spirit then came church....

Paul said:
for the kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit.

-NOT-

for the kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness and peace and joy and tongues in the Holy Spirit.

Power and spiritual gifts are for service

Fruit are for personal charter and for others to eat. You can blather on in tongues, and operate in all 9 gifts but if you don't have the fruit of love it means nothing.

Jesus operated in perfect love, not in tongues.

I believe in tongues and in tongues and interpretation which= prophecy. I pray in tongues and have given messages and interpreted, but I believe we make too much out of tongues!

It is clear from Jesus words it is not nor ever been the first initial evidence when he Baptizes you in the Holy Spirit, it is clothed with power from on high and the love of God shed abroad in our hearts to minister to anyone and everyone and allow us to move in compassion. Paul also will always confirm what Jesus said.

Stop being a sheep in the pasture of communicated religious knowledge and get into the Word

 

[UnderGrace]

Amen and Amen!!!!

And all this can be trace back to Topeka Kansas 1901, before which this phenomena of ecstatic utterances was practiced by non Christians

another fallacy, Jesus said that power would come first not tongues. GO with Jesus and not what the Swaggert camp and Assembly of God, Church of God, Apostolic Faith Church, Word of Faith and other movements state.

First came the power and part of that power is having perfect love shed abroad in your heart for people, then came the tongues, then came the Word preached in demonstration of power and Spirit then came church....

Paul said:
for the kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit.

-NOT-

for the kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness and peace and joy and tongues in the Holy Spirit.

Power and spiritual gifts are for service

Fruit are for personal charter and for others to eat. You can blather on in tongues, and operate in all 9 gifts but if you don't have the fruit of love it means nothing.

Jesus operated in perfect love, not in tongues.

I believe in tongues and in tongues and interpretation which= prophecy. I pray in tongues and have given messages and interpreted, but I believe we make too much out of tongues!

It is clear from Jesus words it is not nor ever been the first initial evidence when he Baptizes you in the Holy Spirit, it is clothed with power from on high and the love of God shed abroad in our hearts to minister to anyone and everyone and allow us to move in compassion. Paul also will always confirm what Jesus said.

Stop being a sheep in the pasture of communicated religious knowledge and get into the Word

 

[RBA238]

And how does this edify the person? Edification is learning and understanding about God, not about a good feeling inside.

The edification for that person, and the other Saints of God who hear this; is simply to let the Beleivers, God is there among them. That is the main purpose of Speaking in Tongues.

 

[UnderGrace]

I have read so many different people who speak in tongues define what it is differently, some say it is an unknown language from another part of the globe, some say it is personal prayer language that is a language that is of only the Holy Spirit, which is unknown to the mind but still edifies, others say it is angelic, you say it is a manifestation that is so spiritual in its content that that even linguistics cannot define it as language.


Is this what you are referring to? Is this woman praying in tongues according to your experiences, she says she is.



<span style="color:#000080;">[video=youtube;vsrwgd7rnR0]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vsrwgd7rnR0[/video]

In 1 Corinthians, Paul heard the believers speaking in tongues (the genuine manifestation). However, it appears the believers were speaking in tongues out loud at the same time in the congregation. So Paul was dealing with the improper usage of the genuine manifestation and he gives instruction as to the proper utilization in the church, as well as in the private prayer life of the believer.

That we have the same thing going on in our day and time is indicative of neglect of Scripture on the subject.

I am aware that there are some who attempt to make up unintelligible words using their understanding in an effort to appear to be speaking in tongues. However, this is not speaking in tongues as there is no energizing by God in the person. And I do not believe Paul addresses this activity in 1 Cor 12-14.

In 1 Cor 12-14, Paul is speaking of the genuine manifestation and gives instruction as to its proper utilization in the church.




I did not watch the video when you first posted it and I am uncertain whether my watching it will add to the discussion.

However, what post number is it?

 

[wattie]

Yup.. carbon copy of a whole lot of experiences I have seen in charismatic circles. Copy and paste. Copy and paste.

How many times did this lady say 'badadowhy' ?

It's also a whole lot like the tongues you see in Hinduism and other religions.

 

[RBA238]

Another fallacy spread by communicated Bible Knowledge and people trying to Lord over their experience over another.

Jesus said that power would come first not tongues. GO with Jesus and not what the Swaggert camp and Assembly of God, Church of God, Apostolic Faith Church, Word of Faith and other movements state.

First came the power and part of that power is having perfect love shed abroad in your heart for people, then came the tongues, then came the Word preached in demonstration of power and Spirit then came church....

Paul said:
for the kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit.

-NOT-

for the kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness and peace and joy and tongues in the Holy Spirit.

Power and spiritual gifts are for service

Fruit are for personal charter and for others to eat. You can blather on in tongues, and operate in all 9 gifts but if you don't have the fruit of love it means nothing.

Jesus operated in perfect love, not in tongues.

I believe in tongues and in tongues and interpretation which= prophecy. I pray in tongues and have given messages and interpreted, but I believe we make too much out of tongues!

It is clear from Jesus words it is not nor ever been the first initial evidence when he Baptizes you in the Holy Spirit, it is clothed with power from on high and the love of God shed abroad in our hearts to minister to anyone and everyone and allow us to move in compassion. Paul also will always confirm what Jesus said.

Stop being a sheep in the pasture of communicated religious knowledge and get into the Word

Your comments on Speaking in Tongues is typical of those who never received The Holy Ghost or ever witnessed it in a Spirit filled Church Service. You Remind us of someone who took two flight lessons and now things they are qualified to fly a Boeing 747..tsk tsk

 

[UnderGrace]

Yup.. carbon copy of a whole lot of experiences I have seen in charismatic circles. Copy and paste. Copy and paste.

How many times did this lady say 'badadowhy' ?

It's also a whole lot like the tongues you see in Hinduism and other religions.

I find it interesting that I posted this on another thread and the tongues supporters, they neither would confirm it was or it was not.

So if there is a true tongues that is a truly spiritual depicts 1 Cor 14:2 9 ( as they like to interpret it) then would not those filled with the Holy Spirit and tongue speakers be able to recognize it?

If not one knows which is the true tongues, well then the whole thing just falls apart, or I guess it is just between them and God and very private indeed, then why does it even need to be said out loud?

I find this confusing from their perspective.

 

[UnderGrace]

Yup.. carbon copy of a whole lot of experiences I have seen in charismatic circles. Copy and paste. Copy and paste.

How many times did this lady say 'badadowhy' ?

It's also a whole lot like the tongues you see in Hinduism and other religions.

I tried to count but I lost track....she was way to fast.

 

[UnderGrace]

Not really true. One can speak words of another language just by hearing others, while not having a clue as to what it means. Paul is simply giving an example about speaking without understanding vs speaking with understanding.

I think it depends on what he means my 'hearing".

The window of opportunity to best learn a new language with fluency, for the brain to absorb it naturally, is in the early years and diminishes significantly after that unless one works really hard at it like studying a subject.

So I agree it takes a lot more than hearing as an adult it requires time and effort and I am not sure it will even still make the person fluent in the language.