Are believers united to Jesus or to the Law?

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.

Jackson123

Senior Member
Feb 6, 2014
7,245
567
113
#21
No, because god supplied my needs, and enabled me to be able to serve others in love.
To me If people do something I call It work.

Let say If your poor neighbors car not work, he need the car for work, than you help him fixed his car for free.

I call It work of love. Not that you expect money or anything from him, pure love, but I still call It work, because It take energy
 

Blik

Senior Member
Dec 6, 2016
1,725
501
113
#22
I don't understand why God can't be accepted on His own terms, instead of those terms being hammered at and pulled apart by our humanness until they are unrecognizable.

It is simply that we were created to live with God in a sinless way, and Adam pulled sin into our lives so God created a way for us to be sinless by giving His Son to pay for our sin. We can accept that and live through Christ. But we have to give our will to Christ, and it is a will to be sinless.

So why not just ditch all that about whether you work for forgiveness or not, and let Christ do the work of that. And ditch the wondering if you should or shouldn't work, and just accept you are righteous through Christ and will to remain that way. Paul tells you about that in Romans 7: 14=19.
 

Jackson123

Senior Member
Feb 6, 2014
7,245
567
113
#23
I don't understand why God can't be accepted on His own terms, instead of those terms being hammered at and pulled apart by our humanness until they are unrecognizable.

It is simply that we were created to live with God in a sinless way, and Adam pulled sin into our lives so God created a way for us to be sinless by giving His Son to pay for our sin. We can accept that and live through Christ. But we have to give our will to Christ, and it is a will to be sinless.

So why not just ditch all that about whether you work for forgiveness or not, and let Christ do the work of that. And ditch the wondering if you should or shouldn't work, and just accept you are righteous through Christ and will to remain that way. Paul tells you about that in Romans 7: 14=19.
I believe salvation not require our work, but the fruit of salvation is love Jesus and mean love other, than It couse us work to help other.
 

p_rehbein

Senior Member
Sep 4, 2013
25,203
2,711
113
#24
In a vital sense, he shares in Jesus' life. Jesus is the source of his spiritual life, and the indwelling presence of Jesus, through the mediation of the Holy Spirit, empowers him to produce spiritual fruit and enables him to endure any burden or suffering.
Don't you mean the "indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit?" Hmm....

It is the Holy Spirit that dispenses Spiritual Gifts, teaches, counsels, comforts, guides us.

(just to clarify)
 
Mar 14, 2011
63,948
10,320
113
#25
To me If people do something I call It work.

Let say If your poor neighbors car not work, he need the car for work, than you help him fixed his car for free.

I call It work of love. Not that you expect money or anything from him, pure love, but I still call It work, because It take energy
I would rather stick to the biblical view. But I can see what you mean.

The bible says when we come to god, we can enter his rest, and cease from our work.. Doing the will of God ceases to be work. It starts to become our treasure, our love, our nature.. As apposed to before when our pleasure love and nature was sin. Or religion.
 

UnitedWithChrist

Well-known member
Aug 12, 2019
1,603
823
113
#26
Don't you mean the "indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit?" Hmm....

It is the Holy Spirit that dispenses Spiritual Gifts, teaches, counsels, comforts, guides us.

(just to clarify)
No, I mean the indwelling presence of Christ mediated through the Holy Spirit. Read Gal 2:20 and I Cor 6. I can supply dozens of Scriptures.

It is true that the Holy Spirit indwells the person and mediates the presence of Christ within the believer. It is true that the Bible refers often to the Holy Spirit. However, the indwelling presence of Christ is mediated by Him. Notice that I use the words "mediated" (an action by a Person) therefore I am Trinitarian. In fact I consider non-Trinitarian theology to be absurd. They cannot make sense of the various references of Scripture indicating Personhood yet essential unity.

By the way I suggest reading Union with Christ by Rankin Wilbourne. He provides all of these references. Or any one of a number of books on union with Christ. This is a sorely neglected Christian doctrine. Until I began to understand it about 4-5 years ago, I wasn't aware how ignorant I was about a core Christian teaching.
 

UnitedWithChrist

Well-known member
Aug 12, 2019
1,603
823
113
#27
Don't you mean the "indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit?" Hmm....

It is the Holy Spirit that dispenses Spiritual Gifts, teaches, counsels, comforts, guides us.

(just to clarify)
It is sad, but "evangelists" and "teachers", intent on minimalizing the content of Christianity, have dumbed down Christianity so much that knowledge of this doctrine has evaded many. I am guessing many "teachers" don't even know about it.

If anyone wants a fairly easy set of messages on this topic, here they are:

https://www.sermonaudio.com/search....subsetcat=series&subsetitem=Union+With+Christ

However, I recommend Rankin Wilbourne's book as a more comprehensive treatment.

By the way, I agree that the Holy Spirit performs all those roles too but he also mediates the presence of Christ.
 

Jackson123

Senior Member
Feb 6, 2014
7,245
567
113
#28
I would rather stick to the biblical view. But I can see what you mean.

The bible says when we come to god, we can enter his rest, and cease from our work.. Doing the will of God ceases to be work. It starts to become our treasure, our love, our nature.. As apposed to before when our pleasure love and nature was sin. Or religion.
Ok brother, you don't like the term work for do the Will of God.

Let me show you a verse that use a term work

John 14:12 King James Version (KJV)

12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

But It is ok, doing the Will of God must be the Natue of born again believer, helping the poor must be a pleasure when Jesus is in our heart, not because we able to bear fruit of ourselve but because we abide in Him
 

TheDivineWatermark

Well-known member
Aug 3, 2018
3,059
627
113
#29
[…] on union with Christ. This is a sorely neglected Christian doctrine. Until I began to understand it about 4-5 years ago, I wasn't aware how […]
One author [/bible teacher], I recall, wrote (after listing about 25 other "ministers" he knew of, that DID grasp these truths) said (of these ministers) that it was an average of about "15 years in[to] [their] ministry [i.e. life work (as ministers)]" before coming to understand this truth. (And that's saying "15 yrs in ministry," not saying "[following] when they came to faith/salvation").
 

TheDivineWatermark

Well-known member
Aug 3, 2018
3,059
627
113
#30
^ EDIT: just to be clear, I've not read the book recommended in Post #26 (and #27 and in the OP), or at least that I can recall reading (lol), so I cannot speak to its specific contents (I'm just speaking of the general, overall subject).
 

UnitedWithChrist

Well-known member
Aug 12, 2019
1,603
823
113
#31
One author [/bible teacher], I recall, wrote (after listing about 25 other "ministers" he knew of, that DID grasp these truths) said (of these ministers) that it was an average of about "15 years in[to] [their] ministry [i.e. life work (as ministers)]" before coming to understand this truth. (And that's saying "15 yrs in ministry," not saying "[following] when they came to faith/salvation").
It's possible. I was a Christian over 25 years before I understood a lot of truths, including union with Christ, at least at the deeper level that I do now. One well-known teacher calls it the central truth of Christianity.
 

UnitedWithChrist

Well-known member
Aug 12, 2019
1,603
823
113
#32
One author [/bible teacher], I recall, wrote (after listing about 25 other "ministers" he knew of, that DID grasp these truths) said (of these ministers) that it was an average of about "15 years in[to] [their] ministry [i.e. life work (as ministers)]" before coming to understand this truth. (And that's saying "15 yrs in ministry," not saying "[following] when they came to faith/salvation").
I gave the book, Union with Christ, to a local pastor with a Master's degree from a respected school....he told me later that the book opened his mind on this topic. I asked him if he was never taught the doctrine at seminary, and he told me they brought it up but it didn't penetrate for some reason. I believe God causes deeper truths to penetrate when it is appropriate.

I know that I read a fairly clearly written chapter in a book about this topic in about 1998, but the subject was brought to my attention again about 15 years later..it was then that I understood it. I remember reading the chapter back then; I simply didn't understand its depths and viewed it in a more metaphorical manner.
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
9,423
3,110
113
#34
The bible says when we come to God, we can enter his rest, and cease from our work..
This applies to those who were believing that they would be saved by works of righteousness, and must understand that the finished work of Christ is sufficient to rest in His salvation. It does not apply to those who are in Christ and understand that salvation results in good works. Indeed, we are to labor for Christ ad labor in His Word also. That is hard work.
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
9,423
3,110
113
#35
Do you think that Judaizers are confused about the nature of the spiritual union with Christ, and as a result, they are still bound to the Law? What would help them realize that they need to be joined to Christ instead?
Judaizers were convinced that in addition to faith in Christ, they must also abide by the Law of Moses. To them this is being true to God. They simply did not understand what the New Covenant was all about. Therefore they would have needed to see from Scripture what is the believer's position in Christ. But that is true for probably many Christians (Judaizers or not).
 

UnitedWithChrist

Well-known member
Aug 12, 2019
1,603
823
113
#36
Judaizers were convinced that in addition to faith in Christ, they must also abide by the Law of Moses. To them this is being true to God. They simply did not understand what the New Covenant was all about. Therefore they would have needed to see from Scripture what is the believer's position in Christ. But that is true for probably many Christians (Judaizers or not).
If we look at Galatians, I think there are two different groups of Judaizers..the teachers, and those deceived by them. I don't believe the teachers, in opposition to Paul, were Christians. However, there were a group of believers that were deceived by them, who apparently remained Christian or Paul would not be pursuing them after their fall from grace.
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
9,423
3,110
113
#37
I don't believe the teachers, in opposition to Paul, were Christians.
Well according to Scripture, they were believers: But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses. (Acts 15:5)

And Paul calls them "false BRETHREN" (Gal 2:4) which confirms that they were indeed believers, but holding to a false concept of Christianity. There are many such Christians today.
 

UnitedWithChrist

Well-known member
Aug 12, 2019
1,603
823
113
#38
Well according to Scripture, they were believers: But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses. (Acts 15:5)

And Paul calls them "false BRETHREN" (Gal 2:4) which confirms that they were indeed believers, but holding to a false concept of Christianity. There are many such Christians today.
"False brethren" doesn't imply that they are believers in Gal 2:4.

If I call you a pseudo-Christian does that mean you are still a Christian? The prefix "pseudo" is commonly used, even in English, to indicate falseness.

The word in Greek for Gal 2:4 is pseudadelphos. Pseudo means false, and delphos means brothers. So, they were not true brothers.

This means "false brothers"..those who are not true brothers.

However, in Acts 15, those individuals were likely believers who were simply mistaken and needed to learn that Gentiles were not required to live like Jews. This was an early stage of development of the Church.

So, my position would be that there are different grades of Judaizers..some are innocents who are simply misinformed (like Acts 15), some are false brothers (like the Judaizer teachers of Galatians and other areas mentioned throughout the epistles), and then there are those who are deceived by the false teachers.
 

UnitedWithChrist

Well-known member
Aug 12, 2019
1,603
823
113
#39
I do believe this to be true, yes.
Out of interest, why do you think that understanding union with Christ commonly comes so far downstream in believers' lives? Is it that understanding it requires doctrinal underpinnings that they don't have yet? It seems like understanding the believers' union with Christ would be one of the first and most valuable concepts they could understand.
 

UnitedWithChrist

Well-known member
Aug 12, 2019
1,603
823
113
#40
Judaizers were convinced that in addition to faith in Christ, they must also abide by the Law of Moses. To them this is being true to God. They simply did not understand what the New Covenant was all about. Therefore they would have needed to see from Scripture what is the believer's position in Christ. But that is true for probably many Christians (Judaizers or not).
True, there are many Christians that may as well be "Judaizers" because they are fixated on meriting their salvation through works, however these works are defined. With the Judaizers, these works were defined as obedience to ceremonial aspects of the Mosaic Law. For some, they are fixated on sacraments and receiving righteousness through them. This is the situation with some Roman Catholics. Other forms of alternate righteousness exist, too...


By the way, I view Roman Catholicism as nothing more than a variation of the Galatians heresy.

Nothing I have said above denies the reality that Christians in union with Christ produce good works as a fruit of their salvation..just covering my backside for potential claims by Judaizers :)