Are Christians given empowerment to do all the works Jesus did? Bethel and their resurrection claims

[UnitedWithChrist]

Had that happen to me in a Charismatic Church in Vancouver Canada back in the 80's. I was praying for a child. Everyone said I was healed. When I didn't get pregnant they blamed it on my faith and I fell away from the Lord. Eventually, years later after the doctor told me that I would never get pregnant I got pregnant. It was a miracle, and believe me I was as fallen away from the Lord as any person could be. But I did go back to church. I raised my children to know God because even in my sin He blessed me. And He made it known to me that my child and children were blessings.

By the way, I would not deny that God blessed you with a child, and healed the condition causing it. I just have issues with charismatic demands and "declarations", and I believe almost all their claims in regards to resurrections and healings are false.

I guess you already understand my point anyways

It's sad that they blamed your condition on your faith. That is very damaging to the spiritual progression of the person.

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

Interesting. I hadn't heard of their claims to have resurrected 15 people. I left a church that was associated with Bethel. I believe in the Gifts of the Holy Spirit but I don't believe in some of the things they do. Bad experience and I am going to refrain from getting into detail but I didn't feel like the presence of God was there.

Someone else posted the link to their "dead raising" team on this thread. I don't know how they could take credit for such resurrections seeing as they were following first responders who exercised their medical training. I'm sure the responders didn't just let them take over.

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

Sounds like antiquated Roman Catholicism to me... yeah I grew up on that stuff.. ...overjoyed as a born again believer to learn that in reality...... God grace is really the only power to a holy life with or without suffering.

We are a new creation according to scripture..... suffering does not make us a new creation.

I started a new thread on this topic, and posted a number of Scriptures that point to suffering being a normative part of Christianity.

Believers follow Christ, and this path includes his suffering.

Those who claim otherwise really don't understand biblical Christianity.

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

You say you don't have problem with God healing the collective prayers of his people if it is his sovereign will or sometimes heals upon the prayers of individuals. It's only wrong when those who you disagree with do that in HIs name?

Correct..those who lack credibility.

This would include many Pentecostals, charismatics, and Word of Faith individuals.

This would include folks who claim that they do greater works than Jesus.

This would include folks who "declare" healings and resurrections, which never occur.

This would include folks who go around healing legs that are 1/2 inch shorter than another leg.

This would include chat room persons making audacious claims.

This would include individuals who focus the attention on themselves rather than God.

This would include individuals who claim healing is guaranteed upon demand for the believer.

This would include individuals who claim they are "little gods" who can demand these sorts of things from God.

This would include individuals who deny God's sovereignty, and claim he has no right in the material realm to heal someone unless a Christian claims it.

This would include individuals who are mentally ill, or have a history of mental illness.

This would include individuals with a history of lying or overexaggeration of events.

This would include individuals who stand to profit financially from these teachings.

The list of credible individuals in the charismatic/Pentecostal/Word of Faith realm gets pretty slim once these individuals are excluded.

 

[Guojing]

No I don't think its a contradiction. When you pray do you always receive what you pray for? Sometimes it isn't Gods Will. A change in jobs. You might think God, I cant stand this job anymore. You might pray for another. Do you pray if it is your Will God please open the door for another or this or that position? Our Will doesn't always match God's Will or timing. So just like I prayed for a child it took 12 years but I did become pregnant. I was told I didn't have faith and that is why I lost my healing.

So you will feel better if it’s not god’s will to heal you, rather than lack of faith?

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

.

You say you don't have problem with God healing the collective prayers of his people if it is his sovereign will or sometimes heals upon the prayers of individuals. It's only wrong when those who you disagree with do that in HIs name?

In other words, when someone tells me they are Pentecostal, charismatic, or Word of Faith, almost invariably they exhibit indications that they are susceptible to mental issues, spiritual immaturity, self-exaltation, gullibility, immorality, lying, or overexaggeration.

If a sound believer with a history of reliability, stability, and theological soundness told me he had personal knowledge of a healing, either his own or someone he had personal knowledge about, I would believe his claims. I have total confidence that God heals according to his sovereign will.

I hate to say that but it's true. I am extremely dubious about claims from individuals in those groups. Every time I've met someone from those groups, sooner or later they have revealed one of the characteristics above. And, I include loved family members in that group unfortunately.

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

In other words, when someone tells me they are Pentecostal, charismatic, or Word of Faith, almost invariably they exhibit indications that they are susceptible to mental issues, spiritual immaturity, self-exaltation, gullibility, immorality, lying, or overexaggeration.

If a sound believer with a history of reliability, stability, and theological soundness told me he had personal knowledge of a healing, either his own or someone he had personal knowledge about, I would believe his claims. I have total confidence that God heals according to his sovereign will.

I hate to say that but it's true. I am extremely dubious about claims from individuals in those groups. Every time I've met someone from those groups, sooner or later they have revealed one of the characteristics above. And, I include loved family members in that group unfortunately.

I would also add that I would gauge whether he is exalting himself or glorifying God. What is his motivation? Is he proclaiming his superior faith and how everyone needs to reach his level to experience their healing, or is he simply thankf

Sounds like antiquated Roman Catholicism to me... yeah I grew up on that stuff.. ...overjoyed as a born again believer to learn that in reality...... God grace is really the only power to a holy life with or without suffering.

We are a new creation according to scripture..... suffering does not make us a new creation.

Here's the thread on suffering and whether God uses suffering to conform believers to the image of Christ:

https://christianchat.com/bible-dis...m-the-believer-to-the-image-of-christ.189400/

It's obvious that God does, indeed, use suffering to conform the believer to the image of Christ.


However, those who have been deceived by false gospels based on the American dream don't like this thought.

 

[oyster67]

A simple thought pertaining to the first part of the thread title:
God can empower any individual to do any thing at any place and at any time. That's why we call Him Omnipotent God.

 

[CS1]

Correct..those who lack credibility.

This would include many Pentecostals, charismatics, and Word of Faith individuals.

This would include folks who claim that they do greater works than Jesus.

This would include folks who "declare" healings and resurrections, which never occur.

This would include folks who go around healing legs that are 1/2 inch shorter than another leg.

This would include chat room persons making audacious claims.

This would include individuals who focus the attention on themselves rather than God.

This would include individuals who claim healing is guaranteed upon demand for the believer.

This would include individuals who claim they are "little gods" who can demand these sorts of things from God.

This would include individuals who deny God's sovereignty, and claim he has no right in the material realm to heal someone unless a Christian claims it.

This would include individuals who are mentally ill, or have a history of mental illness.

This would include individuals with a history of lying or overexaggeration of events.

This would include individuals who stand to profit financially from these teachings.

The list of credible individuals in the charismatic/Pentecostal/Word of Faith realm gets pretty slim once these individuals are excluded.

healing leg 1/2 shorter than another I have seen this happen by a chiropractor. Is it wrong when they do it? do you know why the limb is shorter? when you injure a leg or hip the other side compensates the workload for the injured side. Kind of like holding your foot over a fire so it doesn't get burnt when you lower it. many times when people receive prayer for injured backs, hips, and legs the limb unrestricted by pain now loosens and that causes move out of the limb. That is what I saw happen to my mother-in-law who was not a Christian at the time. she came into the church service with a walker and left without in and walking normally with no pain. I know you will not believe it because clearly, you would have to see it to believe it. Much of your list above I agree with as a pentecostal. However, the three are not linked together as you would like them to be.

 

[CS1]

In other words, when someone tells me they are Pentecostal, charismatic, or Word of Faith, almost invariably they exhibit indications that they are susceptible to mental issues, spiritual immaturity, self-exaltation, gullibility, immorality, lying, or overexaggeration.

If a sound believer with a history of reliability, stability, and theological soundness told me he had personal knowledge of a healing, either his own or someone he had personal knowledge about, I would believe his claims. I have total confidence that God heals according to his sovereign will.

I hate to say that but it's true. I am extremely dubious about claims from individuals in those groups. Every time I've met someone from those groups, sooner or later they have revealed one of the characteristics above. And, I include loved family members in that group unfortunately.

That is absurd. I have no mental issues thank you. That is a hateful thing to say. I do appreciate you being honest to your bias "I am extremely dubious about claims from individuals in those groups." It is not my job to make you believe or agree with my Biblical position. Nor will I let you attack my character or mental stability or maturity. You can stick to your list prior to this post which as I said I agree with most of it. Most of my dealing with those like you have been as such: They use foul language, racist comments, and mocked and scoff young believers in the faith because of their experiences. I would be wrong to place you in that same category as another Cessationist who does this kind of behavior as you have equated with all Pentecostals in your comments.


That is ok. We are done thank you,

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

healing leg 1/2 shorter than another I have seen this happen by a chiropractor. Is it wrong when they do it? do you know why the limb is shorter? when you injure a leg or hip the other side compensates the workload for the injured side. Kind of like holding your foot over a fire so it doesn't get burnt when you lower it. many times when people receive prayer for injured backs, hips, and legs the limb unrestricted by pain now loosens and that causes move out of the limb. That is what I saw happen to my mother-in-law who was not a Christian at the time. she came into the church service with a walker and left without in and walking normally with no pain. I know you will not believe it because clearly, you would have to see it to believe it. Much of your list above I agree with as a pentecostal. However, the three are not linked together as you would like them to be.

I don't deny that healings can occur. My biggest issue is with those who "declare" a healing before it takes place, OR claim that those who are not healed lack faith OR claim that they can do greater works than Jesus personally.

Additionally, I would need to know the person making the claim personally to evaluate it. If someone with known mental health issues or a tendency toward lying or overexaggeration tells me something, obviously I'm going to have issues with it.

God doesn't expect us to be gullible.

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

That is absurd. I have no mental issues thank you. That is a hateful thing to say. I do appreciate you being honest to your bias "I am extremely dubious about claims from individuals in those groups." It is not my job to make you believe or agree with my Biblical position. Nor will I let you attack my character or mental stability or maturity. You can stick to your list prior to this post which as I said I agree with most of it. Most of my dealing with those like you have been as such: They use foul language, racist comments, and mocked and scoff young believers in the faith because of their experiences. I would be wrong to place you in that same category as another Cessationist who does this kind of behavior as you have equated with all Pentecostals in your comments.


That is ok. We are done thank you,

False claims. I don't use filthy language neither am I a racist.

By the way, I know several charismatics/Pentecostals with mental issues. One spent time in a mental hospital and claimed that he came close to resurrecting someone but was stopped by family members of the deceased. Another was in a mental hospital, and claims he can deliver folks from demons. Another claims that God audibly talks to him.

It is one of the criteria I would consider.

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

That is absurd. I have no mental issues thank you. That is a hateful thing to say. I do appreciate you being honest to your bias "I am extremely dubious about claims from individuals in those groups." It is not my job to make you believe or agree with my Biblical position. Nor will I let you attack my character or mental stability or maturity. You can stick to your list prior to this post which as I said I agree with most of it. Most of my dealing with those like you have been as such: They use foul language, racist comments, and mocked and scoff young believers in the faith because of their experiences. I would be wrong to place you in that same category as another Cessationist who does this kind of behavior as you have equated with all Pentecostals in your comments.


That is ok. We are done thank you,

False claims. I don't use filthy language neither am I a racist. I am meticulous on my langage.

By the way, I don't know a single Reformed person who uses filthy language or makes coarse sexual references or is racist. Those guys know better. I know plenty of Baptists and Pentecostals who continue to smoke, use filthy language, and make coarse sexual references.

At the same time, I know plenty of Baptists and Pentecostals who don't smoke, use filthy language, and make coarse sexual references too, so I am not judging all Baptist.

I know that adultery is also very prevalent in the Pentecostal/charismatic groups, even among their ministry (my cousin's husband, a Pentecostal pastor, had an affair). But, I don't know any Reformed people who have.

Additionally, I know several charismatics/Pentecostals with mental issues. One spent time in a mental hospital and claimed that he came close to resurrecting someone but was stopped by family members of the deceased. Another was in a mental hospital, and claims he can deliver folks from demons. Another claims that God audibly talks to him.

Mental health is one of the criteria I would consider. I mentioned several criteria I would consider in evaluating their claims. Are they prone to lying or overexaggeration? Are they gullible? Are they an attention-seeker or seeking to exalt themselves as one of the super spiritual?

I didn't say every charismatic or Pentecostal is mentally ill, either..so whether you are or not, I don't know....but mental health is one of the criteria I would use to judge a person's credibility if they are claiming they healed or resurrected someone.

I'm not gullible, like I said.

 

[oldethennew]

just came in here in this room - is someone calling our CS1 a 'liar'???
and another claiming not to say what CS1 said they said??

God forbid,
'let your yea be yea and your nay be nay'!!

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

A simple thought pertaining to the first part of the thread title:
God can empower any individual to do any thing at any place and at any time. That's why we call Him Omnipotent God.

No one denies that.

 

[Blade]

Forgive me "This claim came to a test recently with claims that Bethel Church (pastored by Bill Johnson) made concerning the death of a child of a member. " <---this is real and about a family. This should never have been used this way. I will not be apart of things like this.

We don't judge GODs word by what happens in the flesh. He can not lie.

 

[CS1]

False claims. I don't use filthy language neither am I a racist. I am meticulous on my langage.

By the way, I don't know a single Reformed person who uses filthy language or makes coarse sexual references or is racist. Those guys know better. I know plenty of Baptists and Pentecostals who continue to smoke, use filthy language, and make coarse sexual references.

At the same time, I know plenty of Baptists and Pentecostals who don't smoke, use filthy language, and make coarse sexual references too, so I am not judging all Baptist.

I know that adultery is also very prevalent in the Pentecostal/charismatic groups, even among their ministry (my cousin's husband, a Pentecostal pastor, had an affair). But, I don't know any Reformed people who have.

Additionally, I know several charismatics/Pentecostals with mental issues. One spent time in a mental hospital and claimed that he came close to resurrecting someone but was stopped by family members of the deceased. Another was in a mental hospital, and claims he can deliver folks from demons. Another claims that God audibly talks to him.

Mental health is one of the criteria I would consider. I mentioned several criteria I would consider in evaluating their claims. Are they prone to lying or overexaggeration? Are they gullible? Are they an attention-seeker or seeking to exalt themselves as one of the super spiritual?

I didn't say every charismatic or Pentecostal is mentally ill, either..so whether you are or not, I don't know....but mental health is one of the criteria I would use to judge a person's credibility if they are claiming they healed or resurrected someone.

I'm not gullible, like I said.

maybe your own mental health should be checked LOL you make assured claims as that you know adultery is prevalent in pentecostal/charismatic groups? I have been married to one women for 27 years soon to be 28 can you say the same? divorce is and problem too but not in any one group the whole as whole has that issues. I bet you have issues and yourself righteous comments are very judgmental.

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

maybe your own mental health should be checked LOL you make assured claims as that you know adultery is prevalent in pentecostal/charismatic groups? I have been married to one women for 27 years soon to be 28 can you say the same? divorce is and problem too but not in any one group the whole as whole has that issues. I bet you have issues and yourself righteous comments are very judgmental.

Have you ever had sex with another person besides your wife?

It isn't a matter of whether you've managed to stay married..the issue is, have you ever been unfaithful to her?

And, no, I have never been unfaithful in a marital relationship.

Anectdotally I have heard of many affairs within Pentecostal/charismatic groups.

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

That is absurd. I have no mental issues thank you. That is a hateful thing to say. I do appreciate you being honest to your bias "I am extremely dubious about claims from individuals in those groups." It is not my job to make you believe or agree with my Biblical position. Nor will I let you attack my character or mental stability or maturity. You can stick to your list prior to this post which as I said I agree with most of it. Most of my dealing with those like you have been as such: They use foul language, racist comments, and mocked and scoff young believers in the faith because of their experiences. I would be wrong to place you in that same category as another Cessationist who does this kind of behavior as you have equated with all Pentecostals in your comments.


That is ok. We are done thank you,

Let me give you an example.

By the way, I encourage folks to watch this video..it is hilarious and shows clearly what kind of material Pentecostals/charismatics are deceived by.

It is an episode of Sid Roth's "It's Supernatural". By the way, he is good friends with Michael Brown, a respected charismatic.

Watch the hilarious dramatizations that fool some charismatics/Pentecostals.

Ask yourself if the guest is credible, and whether he has a good understanding of the Bible.

Notice, too, that the special guest is selling books or teaching materials.

You know, when I think about charismatics/Pentecostals, I get this mental image of a teenage girl sitting on the toilet chewing bubble gum and reading the National Enquirer..her mouth is hanging open in awe as she is reading the fabrications in this tabloid, because she is gullibly reading materials that are only fit for toilet paper. It is the stuff relegated to toilet reading.

Now, I suspect folks will claim that they don't believe stories like Sid Roth is hawking, and that I am picking an extremist..but I don't see much more discernment within the entire community.

Folks, I really encourage you to watch this video, especially if you think I'm being too harsh. And, realize that charismatics/Pentecostals will rarely look at another's alleged experiences as lacking credibility. They think the Christian is called to drop their jaws in awe at all the ridiculous stories charismatics/Pentecostals can come up with, and if anyone criticizes such experiences, they will be labeled as meanies.

Did God address false teachers in Israel? Does Paul address their issues in the New Testament? Did Jude address them?

I think so..and Christians should put a spotlight on the cockroaches within professed Christianity too.

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

I would also note that this charismatic/Pentecostal/Word of Faith Movement exhibits a strong tendency toward self-exaltation.


An example is their claims to be apostles and prophets.

Now, if a fellow claims to be an apostle or prophet generally he needs to prove his claims thus creating the need for miracles.

Manufactured miracles - gold dust, angel feathers thrown into the ventilation system


Reported miracles that cannot be verified

The first step in accepting their authority is accepting their alleged miracles.

By the way I wonder if anyone is saved if they can be deceived by hawkers such as these guys claiming to be apostles and prophets.

This is another good video on the lack of discernment within the community by Costi Hinn. He is Benny Hinn’s nephew and was involved in the Charismatic Movement until God drew him out.