Are Christians more accepting of charlatans then we should be?

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Pilgrimshope

Well-known member
Sep 2, 2020
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Agreed with that.
Because I was reading this morning and I hope you can understand what I'm saying.
I was reading in the psalms and I read this statement, " the Lord takes pleasure in those who fear him, and hope in his steadfast love. " This is so beautiful, because this is the gospel. That we become aware of our dire condition that we stand utterly condemned because our own evil, yet we have hope, faith, trust, in his steadfast love; manifested as Jesus life death and resurrection for us. That if we can trust in this we are saved. Amen.
By mercy and truth iniquity is purged: and by the fear of the Lord men depart from evil.”
‭‭Proverbs‬ ‭16:6‬ ‭

“For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.”
‭‭John‬ ‭1:17‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭9:13‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Mercy and truth are met together;

righteousness and peace have kissed each other.

Truth shall spring out of the earth; and righteousness shall look down from heaven.

Yea, the Lord shall give that which is good; and our land shall yield her increase.

Righteousness shall go before him; and shall set us in the way of his steps.”
‭‭Psalms‬ ‭85:10-13‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.”
‭‭John‬ ‭8:12‬ ‭

Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart:

and ye shall find rest unto your souls. For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭11:28-30‬ ‭KJV‬‬


“And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:

And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭24:46-47‬ ‭KJV‬‬
 

soberxp

Senior Member
May 3, 2018
646
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It's possible you posted this on the wrong thread
Any problems?One tenth of love is still love.Acts 4:32 The tithe is just a symbol, If you get 400000 pounds from tithe,So what can you give to God? 10% of 400000 pounds? or Use the money to help the homeless and others who need it,this is One tenth of love is still love.
 

Blackpowderduelist

Well-known member
Sep 2, 2020
2,156
941
113
Babylon
Any problems?One tenth of love is still love.Acts 4:32 The tithe is just a symbol, If you get 400000 pounds from tithe,So what can you give to God? 10% of 400000 pounds? or Use the money to help the homeless and others who need it,this is One tenth of love is still love.
What does that have to do with the subject at hand?
You'll have to forgive me because I'm missing the context here.
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
21,487
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Hello everybody,

I hope you are all well.
I have been lurking on this forum for some time and decided to join - thanks to the administrators for approving my profile very quickly.

The thing I'd like to get people's views on is whether we as a broad church are more accepting of charlatans and narcissists than we should be.

I had a bad experience at a so called church (Hillsong) about 2 years ago and haven't returned since.
I left because I didn't like how people were manipulated into tithing (not a requirement for modern day Christians) and side-lined if they didn't give in to the manipulation.
I gave to the Church myself, but eventually realised I was doing so under compulsion which is when my eyes were opened to the manipulation.

I also didn't like how closed the 'books' (financial records) were.
The pastor always said the the 'books' were open and free for all to examine, but when a couple of people from the church asked to look at the 'books', they were simply forwarded to the statutory accounts on a government website.
The statutory accounts provide a summary, not a full breakdown.

The pastor and his wife were also living the life of Riley: new car paid for by church, utility bills paid for by church, travel expenses paid for by church, near £40k a year wage (which doesn't include his wife's wage!).
I even witnessed the pastor say during a sermon that he is "God's gift to the church"! Massive ego.

I came to the conclusion that the church was being run like a business.
I did some research on Hillsong and realised that Hillsong is definitely money orientated.

Any thoughts?

Sorry in advance if this divides opinion.
Several years ago, my wife and I had a bad experience at a church in regards to tithing. We temporarily attended that church in which the new Pastor there was obsessed with building a new mega church and he even handed out pledge cards for people to fill out so they can pledge to give extra money on a monthly basis over a three year period (above and beyond 10%) directly to the "moving forward" project to build this new mega church (that they didn't really need) and to this day have never built.

More than a few people left that church because all that Pastor mainly talked about was money (primarily the 10% tithe) and building that new mega church. He would give slide shows on the screen of someone laying down and holding onto a balance beam, proclaiming, "I will give 2% but not 10% in order to beat the congregation over the head with guilt for not giving 10%.

During one sermon, the Pastor even mentioned that a member of that church came into his office one day, somewhat irate and said that he is leaving that church because he is tired of hearing about money all the time and needs to find a church where he can go "deeper" in the Word. That Pastor went on to say to the congregation that the word "deeper" is a code word for "I'm not tithing 10%." The Pastor also mentioned that he checked the records and sure enough that member of the church was not giving 10% and some months gave nothing at all and then acted like, "good riddance to him!" So sad... :(
 

Blackpowderduelist

Well-known member
Sep 2, 2020
2,156
941
113
Babylon
Several years ago, my wife and I had a bad experience at a church in regards to tithing. We temporarily attended that church in which the new Pastor there was obsessed with building a new mega church and he even handed out pledge cards for people to fill out so they can pledge to give extra money on a monthly basis over a three year period (above and beyond 10%) directly to the "moving forward" project to build this new mega church (that they didn't really need) and to this day have never built.

More than a few people left that church because all that Pastor mainly talked about was money (primarily the 10% tithe) and building that new mega church. He would give slide shows on the screen of someone laying down and holding onto a balance beam, proclaiming, "I will give 2% but not 10% in order to beat the congregation over the head with guilt for not giving 10%.

During one sermon, the Pastor even mentioned that a member of that church came into his office one day, somewhat irate and said that he is leaving that church because he is tired of hearing about money all the time and needs to find a church where he can go "deeper" in the Word. That Pastor went on to say to the congregation that the word "deeper" is a code word for "I'm not tithing 10%." The Pastor also mentioned that he checked the records and sure enough that member of the church was not giving 10% and some months gave nothing at all and then acted like, "good riddance to him!" So sad... :(
That pastor is a wolf and should be run out.
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
14,280
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Paul, with. all his education, or in spite of it, was called by Jesus to minister and preach to the gentiles.
Correct. Paul makes it crystal clear that he rejected his Pharisaical background after his conversion. Paul was taught directly by Christ and the Holy Spirit. So all this talk about the synagogues becoming seminaries under Paul is total nonsense.

The modern seminaries are a direct result of the Scholasticism which entered into the Catholic church, and continued under the Protestant Reformers. According to the teaching of Paul and Christ in the NT, the local church was the place where faithful men were to teach other faithful men, and thus continue faithfully handing down the true Gospel and Bible truth. Christ DID NOT authorize academic degrees as the requirement for His evangelists, pastors, and teachers. Indeed, taking the titles of Doctor, or Reverend, or Rabbi were strictly forbidden by Him.
 

Pilgrimshope

Well-known member
Sep 2, 2020
1,245
383
83
Correct. Paul makes it crystal clear that he rejected his Pharisaical background after his conversion. Paul was taught directly by Christ and the Holy Spirit. So all this talk about the synagogues becoming seminaries under Paul is total nonsense.

The modern seminaries are a direct result of the Scholasticism which entered into the Catholic church, and continued under the Protestant Reformers. According to the teaching of Paul and Christ in the NT, the local church was the place where faithful men were to teach other faithful men, and thus continue faithfully handing down the true Gospel and Bible truth. Christ DID NOT authorize academic degrees as the requirement for His evangelists, pastors, and teachers. Indeed, taking the titles of Doctor, or Reverend, or Rabbi were strictly forbidden by Him.
I agree , I think Theo sea of Paul using synagogues as a teaching forum like Jesus did also was at least what I was thinking that everywhere they went was a “ Seminary” The only actual one found in scripture would be of we stuck to the scriptures themselves and took them as a seminary of sorts along with this most important part

“If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.”
‭‭James‬ ‭1:5‬ ‭

I think prayer helps if we want to
Know and grasp I agree with your conclusion I’d rather go to a good solid Bible study at a good biblical church every few days and learn together that’s actually something I’m hungry for a local place like that in person
 
Oct 19, 2020
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Now I do agree that the divisions between all these churches is demonic. They are all doctrinal divisions because they have fallen away from the teaching of the Apostles. So here is the real problem these divisions have occured since the great reformation. Where men like Luther wanted to purge the corruption that had infiltrated the churches presbytery. Many of the other reformers wanted to redefine the theological terms and ideas. Churches that reject history of are highly suspect. Because you never learn what Polycarp taught/learned from John; yeah that guy who was on Patmos. Nor what Ireneaus taught, or who Athanasius is and why he penned the creed. Hint; it was an affirmation of the Trinity and what Trinity means. Written to combat people who were trying to remove or redefine the Trinity. Now the average evangelical don't understand the Trinity. They say stuff like water which is partialism one of the ideas refuted in the Athanasian Creed.
Pietism replace scholastic study.
I read here on this forum all manner of slander against Constantine, because of lack of education, because churches aren't educating people in our history, they don't know so they spread rumors. Which brings me to revivalism an invention of the early 1900s right along with Pentecostal-ism.

It doesn't help Constantine's cause for the things we are certain concerning him, not about what someone thinks of him.

Polycarp did write his own materials and we have that record. Irenaeus claims John oversaw the Church of Ephesus as Bishop [after his RELEASE from Patmos in 95 A.D.] and Polycarp preached under John. We can only assume, that Polycarp, would be teaching from the "knowledge" taught by John that we can find ourselves in the collection of [Gospel of John, I/II/III John, Revelation].

I believe the mere fact that Polycarp and other pupils of John were preaching, where John could observe them before his own death, was Christ ensuring the Church was taught and headed in the right direction.
 
Oct 19, 2020
723
160
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Agreed with that.
Because I was reading this morning and I hope you can understand what I'm saying.
I was reading in the psalms and I read this statement, " the Lord takes pleasure in those who fear him, and hope in his steadfast love. " This is so beautiful, because this is the gospel. That we become aware of our dire condition that we stand utterly condemned because our own evil, yet we have hope, faith, trust, in his steadfast love; manifested as Jesus life death and resurrection for us. That if we can trust in this we are saved. Amen.
That is [working] out your Salvation with "Fear and Trembling" which equals {Grace}!
 

Angela53510

Senior Member
Jan 24, 2011
11,247
2,405
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Yes! Many don't comprehend how many of the text books are from authors who have different denominational backgrounds. The vast majority of scripture interpretation is agreed upon by most commentaries. Where they differ it is up to the individual to make their decision on which is the better hermeneutic. I am loving the journey of discovering the best authors. I recently discovered these three books that have been useful in selecting commentaries.

New Testament Commentary Survey, D.A. Carson
Old Testament Commentary Survey, Temper Longman III
Commentary and Reference Survey: A Comprehensive Guide to Biblical and Theological Resources, John Glynn

This idea that I keep hearing that reading such books is "The Teachings of Men" is based on ignorance of what is in the books I read.
They are focused on the scripture in its entirety and help point out things that you may not notice upon a cursory reading of the scripture without years of familiarity in the rest of the bible. They are not teachings of men. They are explanations of scriptures by men who are filled with the Holy Spirit and seek to know Christ and make him known. Those that are not of that spirit, such as those who do not believe that the scriptures are the inspired Word of God I do not waste my time with. I don't read technical books about arguments about document theories for Genesis. I focus on books that will reveal Jesus in Genesis.

I used the Tremper Longmont III as one text for Old Testament Survey. We also had him do a Colloquy at the Theological school. That has been one amazing thing at both seminary and theological school. They have sessions where they bring in brilliant theologians in some areas. Daniel Block who writes OT commentaries was invited to teach an amazing course based his book, "The Gospel According to Moses." He tied the old and new testaments together in a way I never would have thought of.

I really am blessed by the things God has shown me, and the people I have been able to sit under and learn from, to say nothing of the many excellent books and commentaries I have read on a variety of topics.
 
S

Scribe

Guest
I used the Tremper Longmont III as one text for Old Testament Survey. We also had him do a Colloquy at the Theological school. That has been one amazing thing at both seminary and theological school. They have sessions where they bring in brilliant theologians in some areas. Daniel Block who writes OT commentaries was invited to teach an amazing course based his book, "The Gospel According to Moses." He tied the old and new testaments together in a way I never would have thought of.

I really am blessed by the things God has shown me, and the people I have been able to sit under and learn from, to say nothing of the many excellent books and commentaries I have read on a variety of topics.
I first discovered Tremper Longman III reading How to Read the Psalms, and How To Read Proverbs, two books by him on explaining the Hebrew poetry and literature styles that were helpful in understanding these books in a deeper way.
My Old Testament Survey Books have been:

They Spoke from God: A Survey of the Old Testament, William Williams

An Introduction to the Old Testament Pentateuch, Herbert Wolf

Dictionary of the Old Testament: Pentateuch A Compendium of Contemporary Biblical Scholarship Editors: T. Desmond Alexander, David W. Baker

Old Testament Survey; The Message, Form, and Background of the Old Testament, William Sanford Lasor, David Allan Hubbard, Frederic William Bush.

Looking up each author you find they have degrees from multiple seminaries and only one or two of them are Pentecostals. My point is that I am often having to explain to people that I am not just reading books from Assemblies of God authors, which seems to be the mistaken understanding of those who don't understand what is taught in Seminary.
 

notuptome

Senior Member
May 17, 2013
15,050
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I first discovered Tremper Longman III reading How to Read the Psalms, and How To Read Proverbs, two books by him on explaining the Hebrew poetry and literature styles that were helpful in understanding these books in a deeper way.
My Old Testament Survey Books have been:

They Spoke from God: A Survey of the Old Testament, William Williams

An Introduction to the Old Testament Pentateuch, Herbert Wolf

Dictionary of the Old Testament: Pentateuch A Compendium of Contemporary Biblical Scholarship Editors: T. Desmond Alexander, David W. Baker

Old Testament Survey; The Message, Form, and Background of the Old Testament, William Sanford Lasor, David Allan Hubbard, Frederic William Bush.

Looking up each author you find they have degrees from multiple seminaries and only one or two of them are Pentecostals. My point is that I am often having to explain to people that I am not just reading books from Assemblies of God authors, which seems to be the mistaken understanding of those who don't understand what is taught in Seminary.
I'm concerned that Tremper does not believe in a literal Adam and a literal Eve.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
17,475
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The modern seminaries are a direct result of the Scholasticism which entered into the Catholic church, and continued under the Protestant Reformers.
Maybe, but there is nothing inherently wrong with that.

According to the teaching of Paul and Christ in the NT, the local church was the place where faithful men were to teach other faithful men, and thus continue faithfully handing down the true Gospel and Bible truth.
Yes, Paul was discussing teaching within the context of the local church. However, nothing in those passages discourages seminary study. Seminaries enable people to train for ministry roles much faster than they could be taught in local churches. It would likely take ten years or more for a local church to teach through all the material that a decent seminary can cover in two or three. Further, not all local churches have pastors/elders who are gifted as teachers, and very few of those are sufficiently competent in Hebrew and Greek to teach them without doing more damage than good.

Christ DID NOT authorize academic degrees as the requirement for His evangelists, pastors, and teachers.
Nor did He preclude, forbid, or discourage formal education.

Indeed, taking the titles of Doctor, or Reverend, or Rabbi were strictly forbidden by Him.
Only "Rabbi" is actually forbidden. "Doctor" is an earned title, not a title of role. Few denominations use "Reverend", which does actually violate the gist of Jesus' words.

The terms that I find simply ridiculous are "Bishop", as it's not a title in Scripture, and "Elder", which is laughably misapplied to pimply teenagers in the false Mormon system.
 

CS1

Well-known member
May 23, 2012
7,161
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Big names backed Trump like Franklin Graham and many others. Some believe that God used trump to put the final pieces on the Chess Board. The real question is, did trump do anything that was God setting the scene for Unified and One World Government?
you can't be a part of setting up a one world government has a nationalist. Trump's America first was a direct attack on Globalism which was set up by H.W Bush and used the Kuwait war to do it. Trump came in and aggressively tried to remove the US as Global police. This is why so many pushed back. Those in the pentagon have had the Korean / Vietnam policing policies for years. Once we left Nam, war was something the US was tired of. During the cold war which Regan won, moved us out of the war error. H.W Bush who was CIA, and a WWII military vet, was solid in the idea of globalization. He is the one who coined " NEW World Order".

every president after him carried out his foreign policy. Clinton, Bush , and Obama. Trump did not.