Are Former Christians Who Later Became Murderers and Anti-Christians Still Saved?

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Jun 20, 2022
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#81
Now, the only question is WHEN does a person receive the gift of eternal life? Do you know? That would be the only way to support your view is by showing the gift is received at the end of one's life.

Your turn.

when the person is sincere and allows through surrender for God to take Control.

a mental salvation without a heart condition attached is no more different than knowing right from wrong and giving the correct answer to stay out of trouble.
 
Jan 31, 2021
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#82
FreeGrace2 said:
Now, the only question is WHEN does a person receive the gift of eternal life? Do you know? That would be the only way to support your view is by showing the gift is received at the end of one's life.

Your turn.
when the person is sincere and allows through surrender for God to take Control.
Thank you for your brutal honesty about being so anti-biblical. Prove to me that your claim is in the Bible. I've never seen the words "sincere" or "surrender" in regard to salvation.

The only words I find in regard to salvation are "believe" and "faith". Your view isn't even close to the Bible.

a mental salvation without a heart condition attached is no more different than knowing right from wrong and giving the correct answer to stay out of trouble.
And once again, please prove your claim from the Bible. That means you must find where the Bible warns against "a mental salvation w/o a heart condition attached".

btw, what kind of "heart condition" are you referring to? 3 vessel blockage, 4 vessel blockage, ischemia, or what?
 
#83
There are numerous examples of Christians and their countries who abandon Jesus and God completely.

The peoples of Russia and Germany were once fervant Christians before they changed, become anti-Christs and murderers of innocents on a massive scale.

The BIG QUESTION is, " Are they still saved because they believed in Jesus at one time in their lives?
All they that take the sword shall perish with the sword. No murderer hath eternal life abiding in him. He that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints. The fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

So, the question is, are these examples of peoples who once were true Christians and turned anti-Christ and murderers still saved because they once believed in Jesus?
Just because you "once believed in Jesus" means nothing. Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. The question is, did they obey the gospel of God? For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also. Jesus Christ said, go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
 
Jun 20, 2022
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#84
Thank you for your brutal honesty about being so anti-biblical. Prove to me that your claim is in the Bible. I've never seen the words "sincere" or "surrender" in regard to salvation.

The only words I find in regard to salvation are "believe" and "faith". Your view isn't even close to the Bible.
How do you believe in God without surrendering to Him?

the demons believe, are you saying according to your logic they have eternal security?


And once again, please prove your claim from the Bible. That means you must find where the Bible warns against "a mental salvation w/o a heart condition attached".

btw, what kind of "heart condition" are you referring to? 3 vessel blockage, 4 vessel blockage, ischemia, or what?
Pharaoh had a hardened heart.
Believers do not!
did Pharaoh believe in God and accept Him as his God?
a hardened heart cannot be saved.
the Heart is the KEY to Salvation!

Romans 10:
9 For if you confess with your mouth
that Yeshua is Lord,
and [[((believe in your heart))]]
that God raised Him from the dead,
you will be saved.

notice, the mind Game you play on here is not BIBLICAL!

you must ...
confess with your mouth that Yeshua is Lord, and [[((believe in your heart))]]!!
 
Jan 31, 2021
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#85
How do you believe in God without surrendering to Him?
Your question reveals your lack of understanding. Salvation is a trust issue. Once faith in Christ, THEN the believer is commanded to obey, surrender, etc. You have the cart before the horse.

the demons believe, are you saying according to your logic they have eternal security?
James 2:19 has been sooooo abused by well meaning but very ignorant pastors.

The verse that demons believe that "God is One", or they believe in monotheism, which was particular to Israel. All the Gentile religions were polytheistic.

Now, does believing that "God is One" salvific? No, it is not. So it's not even about believing for salvation.

So, you see, it is YOUR logic that is off. Not mine.

Pharaoh had a hardened heart.
Believers do not!
Some do. And the Bible reveals that.

did Pharaoh believe in God and accept Him as his God?
No. So what? What's your point?

a hardened heart cannot be saved.
There are a LOT of people who had very hardened hearts who did come to faith. It seems you are quite naive about things.

the Heart is the KEY to Salvation!
Do you have a verse for this?

Romans 10:
9 For if you confess with your mouth
that Yeshua is Lord,
and [[((believe in your heart))]]
that God raised Him from the dead,
you will be saved.
Do you what the "heart" is?

notice, the mind Game you play on here is not BIBLICAL!
Please describethis "mind game" you accuse me of. I have no idea. Quote it please.

you must ...
confess with your mouth that Yeshua is Lord, and [[((believe in your heart))]]!!
Of course. Where do you think the heart is? In your chest? Nope.

In the Bible, the "heart" is the seat of the person, their personality, their emotions, their thoughts, consciousness, conscience, etc.

Again, as I said, salvation is a trust issue.

You trust from your heart. Believing and trusting are the same thing. If you believe someone, you trust them.

If you can't trust someone, how can you believe anything they say?
 
Jun 20, 2022
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#86
Your question reveals your lack of understanding. Salvation is a trust issue. Once faith in Christ, THEN the believer is commanded to obey, surrender, etc. You have the cart before the horse.


James 2:19 has been sooooo abused by well meaning but very ignorant pastors.

The verse that demons believe that "God is One", or they believe in monotheism, which was particular to Israel. All the Gentile religions were polytheistic.

Now, does believing that "God is One" salvific? No, it is not. So it's not even about believing for salvation.

So, you see, it is YOUR logic that is off. Not mine.


Some do. And the Bible reveals that.


No. So what? What's your point?


There are a LOT of people who had very hardened hearts who did come to faith. It seems you are quite naive about things.


Do you have a verse for this?


Do you what the "heart" is?


Please describethis "mind game" you accuse me of. I have no idea. Quote it please.


Of course. Where do you think the heart is? In your chest? Nope.

In the Bible, the "heart" is the seat of the person, their personality, their emotions, their thoughts, consciousness, conscience, etc.

Again, as I said, salvation is a trust issue.

You trust from your heart. Believing and trusting are the same thing. If you believe someone, you trust them.

If you can't trust someone, how can you believe anything they say?
you clearly are wrong and have been wrong the entire time. you are one when given facts and Biblical proofs will deny it over and over to believe as you do. you are now debating what heart means in a verse that claims "confess with your mouth that Yeshua is Lord, and [[((believe in your heart))]].

Paul uses the word [[καρδιά]] which means HEART, CORE of the body, the TICKER which all relates to the human HEART.

get over it, Dude, take your False Idealism's elsewhere!
 
Jan 31, 2021
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#87
you clearly are wrong and have been wrong the entire time.
Well, thanks for your opinion. Now, can you prove your claim? How am I wrong about James 2:19? And be specific.

you are one when given facts and Biblical proofs will deny it over and over to believe as you do.
That's rather hard to believe since my views and beliefs come straight from biblical FACTS.

iow, I study the Bible the way Bereans did. They "searched the Scriptures DAILY to see if what __________ said is true." I plunk in the name of those who make statements regarding the Bible. And IF IF IF I can't find any verse that says what they are saying, I KNOW that is they THEY who are wrong.

you are now debating what heart means in a verse that claims "confess with your mouth that Yeshua is Lord, and [[((believe in your heart))]].
No kidding. What did you think I think that "heart" means? I even gave you a definition of it.

Paul uses the word [[καρδιά]] which means HEART, CORE of the body, the TICKER which all relates to the human HEART.
Well, maybe YOU think with your "ticker", but that would mean you come from a different planet, or maybe even solar system.

So, which planet or solar system?

get over it, Dude, take your False Idealism's elsewhere!
Said the apparent alien.

Just so you know, you have NO IDEA how kardia is used in the Bible. It is NEVER used for your "ticker". It's ALWAYS used for the inner being, where the conscience, emotions, etc reside. Basically, it is the soul.

But aliens who think with their "ticker" won't understand that. Sorry.
 

DJT_47

Well-known member
Oct 20, 2022
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#88
There are numerous examples of Christians and their countries who abandon Jesus and God completely.

The peoples of Russia and Germany were once fervant Christians before they changed, become anti-Christs and murderers of innocents on a massive scale.

The BIG QUESTION is, " Are they still saved because they believed in Jesus at one time in their lives?

The first example I'll give is that of Communist Russia. Russia was a fervently Christian/Orthodox country for centuries. Then came the Communist uprising in which they turned from God/Jesus and became an atheist state. They murdered and persecuted many Christians. Former Christians in Russia fully supported this murder and turning from Jesus!

The second example is Christian Germany. When Hitler came to power, Germany was a Christian nation. But with the Nazis, Jews were hated/persecuted/murdered by the millions. Germans who used to be Christians could no longer accept Jesus and turned from Him. Why? Because Jesus was a Jew and the Nazi Germans couldn't accept a Jew for a God. They invented an Aryanized Jesus who wasn't Jewish at all. The German people turned from Jesus enmasse!

So, the question is, are these examples of peoples who once were true Christians and turned anti-Christ and murderers still saved because they once believed in Jesus?

Did Jesus forgive all these their sins and take them to heaven even though they were unrepentant sinners?
Your premise is a bit skewed. Belief doesn’t equate to being a Christian.

Also, read the warning to the newly converted Jews in Hebrews 6:6-7 regarding falling away which still is applicable if one does this today.

And murderers can be saved. Jeffrey Dahlmer was saved while in prison. He was baptized into Christ for the forgiveness of sins.
 
Oct 27, 2022
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#90
There are numerous examples of Christians and their countries who abandon Jesus and God completely.

The peoples of Russia and Germany were once fervant Christians before they changed, become anti-Christs and murderers of innocents on a massive scale.

The BIG QUESTION is, " Are they still saved because they believed in Jesus at one time in their lives?

The first example I'll give is that of Communist Russia. Russia was a fervently Christian/Orthodox country for centuries. Then came the Communist uprising in which they turned from God/Jesus and became an atheist state. They murdered and persecuted many Christians. Former Christians in Russia fully supported this murder and turning from Jesus!

The second example is Christian Germany. When Hitler came to power, Germany was a Christian nation. But with the Nazis, Jews were hated/persecuted/murdered by the millions. Germans who used to be Christians could no longer accept Jesus and turned from Him. Why? Because Jesus was a Jew and the Nazi Germans couldn't accept a Jew for a God. They invented an Aryanized Jesus who wasn't Jewish at all. The German people turned from Jesus enmasse!

So, the question is, are these examples of peoples who once were true Christians and turned anti-Christ and murderers still saved because they once believed in Jesus?

Did Jesus forgive all these their sins and take them to heaven even though they were unrepentant sinners?
John 3:16 says whosoever believes in Jesus has eternal life. We all go to heaven before God to be judged for our actions in the flesh. Some will make it and some won't. Did those folks truly repent or are they still in sin? God is the heart knower and will make the judgement call.
 

arthurfleminger

Well-known member
Aug 18, 2021
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#91
John 3:16 says whosoever believes in Jesus has eternal life. We all go to heaven before God to be judged for our actions in the flesh. Some will make it and some won't. Did those folks truly repent or are they still in sin? God is the heart knower and will make the judgement call.
Yes, Jesus will make the final judgement for each of us. "For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may be recompensed for his deeds in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad." (Corithians)

Unusual that Corinthians doesn't say we'll be judged by 'faith alone' but instead by our own deeds???????????
 
Jan 31, 2021
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#92
John 3:16 says whosoever believes in Jesus has eternal life. We all go to heaven before God to be judged for our actions in the flesh. Some will make it and some won't.
Are you saying that some who have been given eternal life "won't make it"?? Could you explain what that means?

Did those folks truly repent or are they still in sin? God is the heart knower and will make the judgement call.
Paul said, in the present tense, that he was the worst of sinners. Let that sink in.

What do you mean by God "making the judgment call"?
 
Jan 31, 2021
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#93
Yes, Jesus will make the final judgement for each of us. "For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may be recompensed for his deeds in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad." (Corithians)

Unusual that Corinthians doesn't say we'll be judged by 'faith alone' but instead by our own deeds???????????
Do you think that the JSC is to determine whether one will enter heaven or hell???
 

Snacks

Well-known member
Feb 10, 2022
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#94
There are numerous examples of Christians and their countries who abandon Jesus and God completely.

The peoples of Russia and Germany were once fervant Christians before they changed, become anti-Christs and murderers of innocents on a massive scale.

The BIG QUESTION is, " Are they still saved because they believed in Jesus at one time in their lives?

The first example I'll give is that of Communist Russia. Russia was a fervently Christian/Orthodox country for centuries. Then came the Communist uprising in which they turned from God/Jesus and became an atheist state. They murdered and persecuted many Christians. Former Christians in Russia fully supported this murder and turning from Jesus!

The second example is Christian Germany. When Hitler came to power, Germany was a Christian nation. But with the Nazis, Jews were hated/persecuted/murdered by the millions. Germans who used to be Christians could no longer accept Jesus and turned from Him. Why? Because Jesus was a Jew and the Nazi Germans couldn't accept a Jew for a God. They invented an Aryanized Jesus who wasn't Jewish at all. The German people turned from Jesus enmasse!

So, the question is, are these examples of peoples who once were true Christians and turned anti-Christ and murderers still saved because they once believed in Jesus?

Did Jesus forgive all these their sins and take them to heaven even though they were unrepentant sinners?
Planning on murdering someone?
 
Oct 27, 2022
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#95
Are you saying that some who have been given eternal life "won't make it"?? Could you explain what that means?


Paul said, in the present tense, that he was the worst of sinners. Let that sink in.

What do you mean by God "making the judgment call"?
I John 3:15 states that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him. A murderer is suppose to be given a death penalty thus dispatching him to the Father where his trial will be held along with the person that was murdered. The fate of that murderer lies in the Father's hands.
 
Jan 31, 2021
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#96
I John 3:15 states that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.
The key here is "abiding". John's concept of abiding is always of that it is a reciprocal relationship, even as Jesus said in John 15, "Abide in Me and I in you".

Since Jesus Christ Himself IS eternal life, to say that someone does not have eternal life abiding in him is equivalent to saying that he does not have Christ abiding in him. iow, abiding is about fellowship. A believer who murders is clearly OUT OF FELLOWSHIP with the Lord. He is grieving (Eph 5:18) or quenching (1 Thess 5:19) the Holy Spirit.

A murderer is suppose to be given a death penalty thus dispatching him to the Father where his trial will be held along with the person that was murdered. The fate of that murderer lies in the Father's hands.
Exactly! And the FATE of EVERY believer is to NEVER PERISH, as Jesus clearly stated in John 10:28.

If any believer who commits murder goes to the LOF, then Jesus lied in John 10:28. It's that clear.

I refuse to believe that Jesus ever lied. So you need to square yourself with John 10:28.
 

Hazelelponi

Well-known member
Jul 8, 2019
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#97
If they abandoned their faith in the Lord then no, they won't be saved. It's hard to imagine a scenario where someone has faith in Him yet becomes actively anti-Christian.

Once saved always saved is one of the most harmful doctrines ever to infect the body of Christ.
Once saved, always saved teaches those who turn their back on God were never Christian, never actually saved in the first place - regardless of what they told others or believed themselves to be. Jesus' words " I never knew you" states never. (Matthew 7:23)
 

RaceRunner

Well-known member
Oct 13, 2022
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#98
Once saved, always saved teaches those who turn their back on God were never Christian, never actually saved in the first place - regardless of what they told others or believed themselves to be. Jesus' words " I never knew you" states never. (Matthew 7:23)
JESUS NEVER KNEW THEM!
 
Oct 20, 2022
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#99
I agree with the other member, this isn't the place to correct historic inaccuracies.

Though as pertains to Nazi Germany, AH was intolerant of any who didn't fall into lockstep.

Go along,live. Don't, die.

Same with Tzar Russia.

Are they Christians?

Soldiers kill under orders. And there are chaplains in every unit.

For me, I believe Father is Sovereign and all knowing. The fact he is such and calls us to himself eternally tells me he knows who are his own no matter what comes.

No one takes us from Jesus hand.

I'd think that includes ourselves being unable to leave what God alone bestowed and sealed in us.

Just my thoughts.💞🕊️
 
Jan 31, 2021
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Once saved, always saved teaches those who turn their back on God were never Christian, never actually saved in the first place - regardless of what they told others or believed themselves to be. Jesus' words " I never knew you" states never. (Matthew 7:23)
Correction: OSAS does not teach that. Calvinists teach that.

Jesus taught that believer have eternal life in John 5:24. He also taught that recipients of eternal life shall never perish in John 10:28.

It's not difficult to connect the dots here. Once given the gift of eternal life, the recipient shall not (cannot) perish.

In Matt 7:21-23, what is clear is that the crowd had never believed, as you correctly note. Their entire appeal for entering the kingdom is based on what THEY did for Him, not what He did for them. Which is a big difference.