Are Holy Spirit baptisms claims provable?

[jb]

For those interested you can find a bit of a study Here on this subject.

 

[DJ2]

I would say that you believe you can figure God out with your mind

you cannot

You are quite mistaken – I do not assume that at all.

if one is speaking in a demonic tongue, that is hardly the Holy Spirit

If I may ask, what to you constitutes a “demonic tongue”, what makes it ‘demonic’??? I’d be curious to know. Can you provide a current example/reference?

do you believe the devil exists?

Pure evil certainly exists just as pure good does.

we are not talking about the same things and you are not going to understand what I write but I do understand what you are saying

Only to you. Based upon your understanding of tongues, they can only be different things. I certainly understand what you’re writing. You, like many others, tend to describe the experience; the actual ‘tongue’ is hardly ever really looked at.

it seems the only posts you make here (maybe I'm wrong...but those are the only ones I seem to see) are about tongues and in those posts you do what you are doing here

do you have any other things to say?

you say the same things over and over and so do I in my responses to you...as do others

I do post on other topics, but my primary interest is the phenomenon of “tongues”. I don’t see where having a concentrated interest in a particular (Biblical) subject is an issue. I’m pretty sure I’m not the only person who primarily posts on subjects of particular interest.

if your desire is to convince Christians that are filled with the Spirit of God that they are not filled with God's Spirit, you are never going to do that

I’m not sure where you’re getting that; I’m certainly not trying to convince anybody that they are not filled with God’s Spirit.

And, yes, I suppose I tend to argue various points about ‘tongues’ more than other topics.

As I’ve likely said before somewhere on this forum, some people are quick to tell me that I am trying to ‘explain/understand the spiritual in earthly terms’, or something along those lines.

Indeed, there are many things in religion that must be taken on faith; they can neither be proved nor can they be disproved. ‘Tongues’ is just not one of these things; it is something very tangible which can be, and has been, studied on many different levels across many different disciplines; mine happens to be linguistics.

If “tongues” were a supernatural phenomenon (don't misunderstand here - I refer to 'tongues" themselves, not the 'tongues experience'), it seems reasonable to suggest that some sort of scientific account or explanation of the behavior would not be possible, or at least extremely difficult at best. Yet, this is quite obviously not the case.

so, kindly look at my responses for further communication because they are not going to change...if you decide to accept Jesus as your Savior, you will have a different understanding

I’m not trying to change your responses. No, I don’t think so – glossolalia is what it is.

Indeed, there are many things in religion that must be taken on faith; they can neither be proved nor can they be disproved. ‘Tongues’ is just not one of these things; it is something very tangible which can be, and has been, studied on many different levels across many different disciplines; mine happens to be linguistics.

If “tongues” were a supernatural phenomenon (don't misunderstand here - I refer to 'tongues" themselves, not the 'tongues experience'), it seems reasonable to suggest that some sort of scientific account or explanation of the behavior would not be possible, or at least extremely difficult at best. Yet, this is quite obviously not the case.​

This is the ugly truth that those in the Pentecostal groups will not address and so are bound to the chains of its lies. Great harm is done by these groups in the defense of this obvious falsehood. Many outside the church falsely mock Christianity because of a mistaken belief that these beliefs are part of the Word of God. They see this bizarre behavior as proof that Christianity is nothing more then emotion and tomfoolery.

To be fair many non-Pentecostal groups, unwilling to offend anyone are unwilling to stand up and call out these antics.

 

[notuptome]

Perhaps you have not read the same scriptures I have read in the New Testametn on the subject........

It , and I praphrase here, does teach when we cannot find the words we would like to express our deepest spiritual feelings, the Holy Spirit intervenes with a sigh expressing without words but a sigh what is intended......so it is with speaking in an unknown tongue.

Now, use your noggin here. if the Scripture teaches one must not speak in tongues in the congregation unless there is someone elsto interpret, it stands to even human logic that the one speakingintonges is not able to interpret.

So it is when one prays in tongues. the desire to express oneself is satisfied by teh HOly Spirit when uttering the unknown tongue in prayer.

It makes perfect sense to me, but I am easy I suppose in that regard.

The Holy Spirit making intercession for us with groaning that cannot be uttered is not speaking in an unknown or unknowable tongue.

Ro 8:26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.

For tongues to be able to be interpreted they must be known languages. Someone must understand the language or hear the language spoken in their language as in Acts at Pentecost.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[hornetguy]

Perhaps you have not read the same scriptures I have read in the New Testametn on the subject........

It , and I praphrase here, does teach when we cannot find the words we would like to express our deepest spiritual feelings, the Holy Spirit intervenes with a sigh expressing without words but a sigh what is intended......so it is with speaking in an unknown tongue.

Now, use your noggin here. if the Scripture teaches one must not speak in tongues in the congregation unless there is someone elsto interpret, it stands to even human logic that the one speakingintonges is not able to interpret.

So it is when one prays in tongues. the desire to express oneself is satisfied by teh HOly Spirit when uttering the unknown tongue in prayer.

It makes perfect sense to me, but I am easy I suppose in that regard.

Romans 8.... and it specifically states that no words are included....it is the Spirit praying directly to God... not through us.

[SUP]26 [/SUP]In the same way the Spirit also helps our weakness; for we do not know how to pray as we should, but the Spirit Himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words;

 

[7seasrekeyed]

This is the ugly truth that those in the Pentecostal groups will not address and so are bound to the chains of its lies. Great harm is done by these groups in the defense of this obvious falsehood. Many outside the church falsely mock Christianity because of a mistaken belief that these beliefs are part of the Word of God. They see this bizarre behavior as proof that Christianity is nothing more then emotion and tomfoolery.

To be fair many non-Pentecostal groups, unwilling to offend anyone are unwilling to stand up and call out these antics.

let's see.....


noose is not a Christian

kavik is not a Christian

they like this post

Many outside the church falsely mock Christianity

uh huh

 

[notuptome]

let's see.....


noose is not a Christian

kavik is not a Christian

they like this post



uh huh

Guilt by association? One can only wonder.

Could be ignorance is contagious.


For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[Noose]

let's see.....


noose is not a Christian

kavik is not a Christian

they like this post



uh huh

Christians are those that are given the right to be called sons of God.
If you believe in your heart and confess with your mouth that Jesus Christ is Lord, He came in flesh and died for our sins you shall be saved.
So, what criteria did you use to disqualify me? The thief on the right hand of Jesus believed and was saved, no one can say that he wasn't saved because he didn't believe in speaking in tongues.

I insist, meaningless blabber that we hear today in the churches is a sure sign of demonic spirits.

1 Cor 14:6Now, brothers and sisters, if I come to you and speak in tongues, what good will I be to you, unless I bring you some revelation or knowledge or prophecy or word of instruction? 7Even in the case of lifeless things that make sounds, such as the pipe or harp, how will anyone know what tune is being played unless there is a distinction in the notes? 8Again, if the trumpet does not sound a clear call, who will get ready for battle? 9So it is with you. Unless you speak intelligible words with your tongue, how will anyone know what you are saying? You will just be speaking into the air. 10Undoubtedly there are all sorts of languages in the world, yet none of them is without meaning. 11If then I do not grasp the meaning of what someone is saying, I am a foreigner to the speaker, and the speaker is a foreigner to me. 12So it is with you. Since you are eager for gifts of the Spirit, try to excel in those that build up the church.13For this reason the one who speaks in a tongue should pray that they may interpret what they say. 14For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my mind is unfruitful. 15So what shall I do? I will pray with my spirit, but I will also pray with my understanding; I will sing with my spirit, but I will also sing with my understanding.16Otherwise when you are praising God in the Spirit, how can someone else, who is now put in the position of an inquirer,[SUP]d[/SUP] say “Amen” to your thanksgiving, since they do not know what you are saying? 17You are giving thanks well enough, but no one else is edified.18I thank God that I speak in tongues more than all of you. 19But in the church I would rather speak five intelligible words to instruct others than ten thousand words in a tongue.20Brothers and sisters, stop thinking like children. In regard to evil be infants, but in your thinking be adults. 21In the Law it is written:“With other tongues
and through the lips of foreigners
I will speak to this people,
but even then they will not listen to me,

says the Lord.”[SUP]e[/SUP]​

22Tongues, then, are a sign, not for believers but for unbelievers; prophecy, however, is not for unbelievers but for believers. 23So if the whole church comes together and everyone speaks in tongues, and inquirers or unbelievers come in, will they not say that you are out of your mind? 24But if an unbeliever or an inquirer comes in while everyone is prophesying, they are convicted of sin and are brought under judgment by all,25as the secrets of their hearts are laid bare. So they will fall down and worship God, exclaiming, “God is really among you!”

 

[hornetguy]

So, what criteria did you use to disqualify me?

I think she used the criteria of your online profile, that states you are "not Christian".

 

[DJ2]

I would say that you believe you can figure God out with your mind

you cannot

if one is speaking in a demonic tongue, that is hardly the Holy Spirit

do you believe the devil exists?

we are not talking about the same things and you are not going to understand what I write but I do understand what you are saying

it seems the only posts you make here (maybe I'm wrong...but those are the only ones I seem to see) are about tongues and in those posts you do what you are doing here

do you have any other things to say?

you say the same things over and over and so do I in my responses to you...as do others

if your desire is to convince Christians that are filled with the Spirit of God that they are not filled with God's Spirit, you are never going to do that

so, kindly look at my responses for further communication because they are not going to change...if you decide to accept Jesus as your Savior, you will have a different understanding

if one is speaking in a demonic tongue, that is hardly the Holy Spirit​

I too am curious for you to give an example of the demonic tongues, that is hardly the Holy Spirit.

 

[7seasrekeyed]

Christians are those that are given the right to be called sons of God.
If you believe in your heart and confess with your mouth that Jesus Christ is Lord, He came in flesh and died for our sins you shall be saved.
So, what criteria did you use to disqualify me? The thief on the right hand of Jesus believed and was saved, no one can say that he wasn't saved because he didn't believe in speaking in tongues.

I insist, meaningless blabber that we hear today in the churches is a sure sign of demonic spirits.

1 Cor 14:6Now, brothers and sisters, if I come to you and speak in tongues, what good will I be to you, unless I bring you some revelation or knowledge or prophecy or word of instruction? 7Even in the case of lifeless things that make sounds, such as the pipe or harp, how will anyone know what tune is being played unless there is a distinction in the notes? 8Again, if the trumpet does not sound a clear call, who will get ready for battle? 9So it is with you. Unless you speak intelligible words with your tongue, how will anyone know what you are saying? You will just be speaking into the air. 10Undoubtedly there are all sorts of languages in the world, yet none of them is without meaning. 11If then I do not grasp the meaning of what someone is saying, I am a foreigner to the speaker, and the speaker is a foreigner to me. 12So it is with you. Since you are eager for gifts of the Spirit, try to excel in those that build up the church.13For this reason the one who speaks in a tongue should pray that they may interpret what they say. 14For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my mind is unfruitful. 15So what shall I do? I will pray with my spirit, but I will also pray with my understanding; I will sing with my spirit, but I will also sing with my understanding.16Otherwise when you are praising God in the Spirit, how can someone else, who is now put in the position of an inquirer,[SUP]d[/SUP] say “Amen” to your thanksgiving, since they do not know what you are saying? 17You are giving thanks well enough, but no one else is edified.18I thank God that I speak in tongues more than all of you. 19But in the church I would rather speak five intelligible words to instruct others than ten thousand words in a tongue.20Brothers and sisters, stop thinking like children. In regard to evil be infants, but in your thinking be adults. 21In the Law it is written:“With other tongues
and through the lips of foreigners
I will speak to this people,
but even then they will not listen to me,

says the Lord.”[SUP]e[/SUP]​

22Tongues, then, are a sign, not for believers but for unbelievers; prophecy, however, is not for unbelievers but for believers. 23So if the whole church comes together and everyone speaks in tongues, and inquirers or unbelievers come in, will they not say that you are out of your mind? 24But if an unbeliever or an inquirer comes in while everyone is prophesying, they are convicted of sin and are brought under judgment by all,25as the secrets of their hearts are laid bare. So they will fall down and worship God, exclaiming, “God is really among you!”

oh really

yet you say the following in your profile:

Age34About Noose

Gender:male

Marital Status:married

Spiritual Status:not Christian

Country Flag/Nationality:KenyaCountry (Location):Kenya

Favorite Bible Verse:Rev 17:4 I heard another voice from heaven, saying, "Come out of her, my people, so that you will not participate in her sins and receive of her plagues;

so silence may be your best option

anyone, including the devil himself, can use scripture for their own purposes

 

[7seasrekeyed]

I too am curious for you to give an example of the demonic tongues, that is hardly the Holy Spirit.

can you prove you are actually a Christian?

I don't know you at all

you are just posts in a forum

see how that works?

 

[Bladerunner]

can you prove you are actually a Christian?

I don't know you at all

you are just posts in a forum

see how that works?

Yes, I can........I am a Premillennialist who believes completely in the Word of GOD(Bible), the Millennium and the Rapture and Gospel of Jesus Christ. (1 Cor 15:1-4).

I read the Bible; Literally, Historically and Grammatically

Because of this, I am one of the minorities of True Christians on this Forum.

Are You in this minority?

 

[DJ2]

can you prove you are actually a Christian?

I don't know you at all

you are just posts in a forum

see how that works?

Talk about not answering the question. I write:

I too am curious for you to give an example of the demonic tongues, that is hardly the Holy Spirit.

and you answer with:

can you prove you are actually a Christian?

Though you have not given me the courtesy of an answer I will still answer yours.

No, I can not prove I am a Christian. Actually no one can truly prove their Christianity. This is the point of the OP, that claims of Holy Spirit baptism are not provable. Hence these claims, while they may be true hold no weight in these discussions. Just as claims of the Pope to be the Vicar of Christ are meaningless, so are all claims no matter what degree. Even if there was a "Vicar of Christ" walking the Earth without a valid way to prove this the claim is meaningless.

When a pimple faced 21 year old Mormon "elder" knocks on your door do you accept his claim to have been ordained by God and the Church to proclaim the gospel of Jesus Christ? Do you accept his insistence that those who ordained him have both raised the dead and healed the sick? Does this even matter in your discussion? The same is true with those who imply that "their" Holy Spirit baptism is proof of God's acceptance of their theology. "I must be thinking right or God would not have baptized me with the Holy Spirit".

See how that works?

Now would you do me the courtesy of answering my question.

 

[DJ2]

let's see.....


noose is not a Christian

kavik is not a Christian

they like this post



uh huh

It is better to be on the side of truth even if you have to rub elbows with a few non-Christians then dirty your hands with the lies of false teachers.

 

[DJ2]

With regards to not stuttering when speaking ‘tongues’ – this just further illustrates that tongues are produced within the speaker’s subconscious; it’s a phenomenon that requires no conscious effort to produce. It's sort of akin to what happens while dreaming. When a person who stutters dreams, if they Are speaking in their dream, they typically do not stutter

Stuttering is, in part, a result of conscious language production. When engaged in glossolalia, the language production centers of the brain are not overly active as glossolalia is not language. Another reason why a person who stutters when speaking will not do so when engaged in glossolalia; they're not producing actual language.

I don’t think non-stuttering in people who stutter is really all that odd or a sign of anything; another common example is that people who stutter, do not do so when they sing; in fact, many famous singers started off singing as a way to work through childhood stuttering (Elvis Presley is perhaps the best example).

Mel Tillis was a severe stutterer yet found singing a simple way to control it. He turned that talent into a career.

 

[DJ2]

Yes, I can........I am a Premillennialist who believes completely in the Word of GOD(Bible), the Millennium and the Rapture and Gospel of Jesus Christ. (1 Cor 15:1-4).

I read the Bible; Literally, Historically and Grammatically

Because of this, I am one of the minorities of True Christians on this Forum.

Are You in this minority?

Don't answer!! Don't go over to the dark side!!

 

[7seasrekeyed]

Talk about not answering the question. I write: and you answer with:

Though you have not given me the courtesy of an answer I will still answer yours.

No, I can not prove I am a Christian. Actually no one can truly prove their Christianity. This is the point of the OP, that claims of Holy Spirit baptism are not provable. Hence these claims, while they may be true hold no weight in these discussions. Just as claims of the Pope to be the Vicar of Christ are meaningless, so are all claims no matter what degree. Even if there was a "Vicar of Christ" walking the Earth without a valid way to prove this the claim is meaningless.

When a pimple faced 21 year old Mormon "elder" knocks on your door do you accept his claim to have been ordained by God and the Church to proclaim the gospel of Jesus Christ? Do you accept his insistence that those who ordained him have both raised the dead and healed the sick? Does this even matter in your discussion? The same is true with those who imply that "their" Holy Spirit baptism is proof of God's acceptance of their theology. "I must be thinking right or God would not have baptized me with the Holy Spirit".

See how that works?

Now would you do me the courtesy of answering my question.

oh

you are one of those 'answer my question' game players

here I'll answer this one

When a pimple faced 21 year old Mormon "elder" knocks on your door do you accept his claim to have been ordained by God and the Church to proclaim the gospel of Jesus Christ?

I would tell him about that stuff they advertise on tv...for the pimples...

 

[7seasrekeyed]

It is better to be on the side of truth even if you have to rub elbows with a few non-Christians then dirty your hands with the lies of false teachers.

seems your truth is relative

relative to your personal beliefs

 

[Noose]

oh really

yet you say the following in your profile:

Age34About Noose

Gender:male

Marital Status:married

Spiritual Status:not Christian

Country Flag/Nationality:KenyaCountry (Location):Kenya

Favorite Bible Verse:Rev 17:4 I heard another voice from heaven, saying, "Come out of her, my people, so that you will not participate in her sins and receive of her plagues;

so silence may be your best option

anyone, including the devil himself, can use scripture for their own purposes

Good and i have this to tell you, a christian is by heart and not by declaration- if speaking meaningless words and bringing confusion is what makes someone a christian, i don't want to be one, thanks.

The thief crucified on the right hand of Jesus was a christian not because you approve of him but because he believed.

A famous man once said ".. you are the light of the world, ... you put a lamp on a lamp stand and not underneath the bed..." what he actually meant was, let people see and judge by what you do and not what you declare; he also asked, "..if the light that is in you is dark, how dark is your darkness?"

 

[Waggles]

Good and i have this to tell you, a christian is by heart and not by declaration- if speaking meaningless words and bringing confusion is what makes someone a christian, i don't want to be one, thanks.

The thief crucified on the right hand of Jesus was a christian not because you approve of him but because he believed.

A famous man once said ".. you are the light of the world, ... you put a lamp on a lamp stand and not underneath the bed..." what he actually meant was, let people see and judge by what you do and not what you declare; he also asked, "..if the light that is in you is dark, how dark is your darkness?"

Gobbledegook
What religion are you again?
Not be declaration !!!
That's certainly not what Jesus and the Apostles preach
Why do you think water baptism by full immersion in public
is mandatory?
Why do true believers speak forth in tongues when baptized in
the Holy Spirit ? So all can be of one accord.

The thief on the cross was not a Christian.
The outpouring of the Holy Spirit had not as yet occurred.