Are Roman Catholics Christians

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Nov 12, 2015
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To be saved you have to believe in Jesus.
To believe in Jesus, it would seem logically necessary to have some vague idea of who or what he is.
The Mormons don't have even the remotest idea who he is.

In fact, the messiah they believe in is the EXACT OPPOSITE of the person the Bible calls Jesus.


I want them to be saved.

But this is just how it is.


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I can't explain it at all max. I'm not kidding when I say I was completely floored and dazed. I'm not sure I could even relate the whole episode. The two men came to the house I was housesitting. I knew they were coming. The woman whose house I was watching had told me she arranged for them to come and talk with me. About...three hours before they were to arrive, the Holy Spirit came on me real strong. The only other time He had ever come on me that strong and insistently and for a long period of time was on the day I first received Him.

I know that for that three hours I did not sit down. And I know I walked around the whole house, back and forth for the entire three hours. And I know I was praying, I'm absolutely certain of that. But...I can't recall at all WHAT I was praying. I do also recall that while I prayed for that three hours, I was crying off and on - mostly on.

Then they came and...we began talking...and the one young man and I were both covered in those odd goosebumps that come on me when the Spirit is just really strongly there and it feels like...my hair isn't laying on my scalp but feels like it must be sticking straight up. And I mentioned it because I could see it on his arms. And he said the Holy Spirit does that to him sometimes.

The rest of the conversation was wonderful and the young man and I just had real joy talking about God and the Spirit and Jesus.

At some point, maybe an hour or so later, I became aware that the second young man wasn't saying anything and I could see he felt uncomfortable. He said they had to go and could they come back. I said yes they could. He asked about three evenings from then and I agreed. Then the first young man said, oh but we don't have to wait until then! So I said, oh! You should come back tomorrow night if you can! I can make us dinner! He said, yes, we can!

The next evening, when the doorbell rang, that young man was not there. The second young man was and he was with a very unpleasant and dour older man. I asked after the first young man and mr. dour snapped at me that he had to be sent away two states over for some business.

I instantly knew (don't know how) that the nervous young man had tattled on the other young man in some fashion and that he had gotten in trouble for not...doing what he had been sent to the house to do.

I had the sudden certainty that I should tell them to leave but I didn't follow the certainty until they sat down and the old man began speaking. It was quite surprising. He began attacking me, right from the start. I don't remember much of what he was yelling, but I do remember that I said, that's not what the bible states. It says thus and thus. And I do remember that whatever it was had to do with the Holy Spirit. So the man had come armed with all I and the young man had said about the Holy Spirit the evening before. That was when I followed my certainty instead of trying to be polite. I asked them to leave immediately and to not come back.

I prayed for that first young man like I had never prayed before (except for the evening before :)). I just didn't stop until quite suddenly I knew I could stop and he would be okay. (Don't know how I knew, I just did somehow).

I guess there are many odd things about the whole episode but do you know what I found the oddest? When the Spirit came on me so strongly and I prayed before they arrived the first night, there was awareness...but there is also some sense of... not quite remembering exactly what I prayed for three hours AND when that other spirit that was with the old man was there, I ALSO had an awareness but once again some sense of not quite remembering exactly what he said and what I replied (other than that I knew it was about the Holy Spirit.) That is just the oddest thing to me.
 
Nov 12, 2015
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Most people here have said that Roman Catholics can be true Christians, they argue that God looks at the heart and not which denomination you happen to worship in.
I find it hard to believe that a truly converted believer in Christ can continue to worship as a Roman Catholic but I can't accept that over a billion Catholics are all lost and won't make it to heaven.
Can we truly know by studying God's Word how God He will deal with these people, there's an element of mystery to it. I don't think it's black and white as I would like it to be
I think it's not black and white for the reason that we aren't meant to judge or condemn men, to declare them saved or condemned. It's Gods' work to judge men.
 

shrume

Senior Member
Jun 26, 2017
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You free to your opinion...it was a valid question based upon the dozens of times that he makes a post that is off
Dozens of times? Off how, dcon? Different from what you believe?

and or has nothing to do with the current subject...
Can you provide even -one- example?

You seem to have trouble conversing civilly with people who understand some things differently than you do.

...just an observation. Take it for what it's worth, just my opinion.
 
Nov 12, 2015
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I agree with you absolutely, but in the case of the Roman Church. It would be painfully obvious to a person who has heard the true Gospel to miss the all of the BIG contradictions.
I'm not talking about minor things, I'm talking about fundamental things which expose it as apostate. The RCC is in stark contradiction to Biblical Christianity, it doesn't teach that God's Word is the final authority.
I don't need to list all of the errors, someone has listed them in a recent post, have a look.
No church or denomination or gathering has perfect knowledge or is without any errors of any sort. Some have more errors and some less I suppose. And some with more minor errors or misunderstandings of God and some with more major errors or misunderstandings.

The one catholic woman I know who is no longer catholic, when I asked her why she left and began to attend another church, she said: well...I just couldn't DO all they told me I had to. It was impossible. No one could do it. Even if I didn't have children and a family, I still couldn't do it all. I haven't had time to speak with her again yet but I really want to ask what all those things were that they told her she had to do. I think I'm going to see her next week, so I'm going to ask. Oh, and she also said that what I'd told her in our talks matched what Jesus said much more than what they told her and that she could understand what I said and what Jesus said but that whenever she went to the priest with a question, he gave her another book to read that explained it, and that when she had some question about something in that book he'd just give her another book to explain it, and then she got so many books there was no more room in her house for any more and yet the questions never were answered.

But that woman was in the catholic church and I'm very certain she had received the Holy Spirit. I'd guess it was about...two years she was there before she left and all that time she had the Spirit. Confusions for sure, but the Spirit also.
 

MarkWilliams

Active member
Jun 13, 2018
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M...,
Christ purchased the right for you and I to repent and gain forgiveness of our sin.
We are judged after earthly physical death.
Wrong.....The Bible clearly teaches and requires ...repentance.
Our filthy rags...is symbolic...for our efforts to be righteous...in sufficiently... in G-'ds eyes.


M...,

Study scriptures... "road is hard t find..."gate is narrow"......"few will make it".
What does that mean to you? Obviously, we do not know. But, If I were to assess...I would opine that only 10 to 15% of folks who lived on this earth will meet G-d's requirements.
I said "the Bible doesn't teach repentance, faith and good works" you said that I said "the Bible doesn't teach repentance" can you spot the difference. I congratulate you in advance
 
P

pjharrison

Guest
Roman Catholics or not Christians. They preach another Jesus, not they same Jesus in the Bible.
 

MarkWilliams

Active member
Jun 13, 2018
408
174
43
No church or denomination or gathering has perfect knowledge or is without any errors of any sort. Some have more errors and some less I suppose. And some with more minor errors or misunderstandings of God and some with more major errors or misunderstandings.

The one catholic woman I know who is no longer catholic, when I asked her why she left and began to attend another church, she said: well...I just couldn't DO all they told me I had to. It was impossible. No one could do it. Even if I didn't have children and a family, I still couldn't do it all. I haven't had time to speak with her again yet but I really want to ask what all those things were that they told her she had to do. I think I'm going to see her next week, so I'm going to ask. Oh, and she also said that what I'd told her in our talks matched what Jesus said much more than what they told her and that she could understand what I said and what Jesus said but that whenever she went to the priest with a question, he gave her another book to read that explained it, and that when she had some question about something in that book he'd just give her another book to explain it, and then she got so many books there was no more room in her house for any more and yet the questions never were answered.

But that woman was in the catholic church and I'm very certain she had received the Holy Spirit. I'd guess it was about...two years she was there before she left and all that time she had the Spirit. Confusions for sure, but the Spirit also.
I wasn't referring to some errors, I'm talking about the ELEPHANT in the room. I know it's not easy for everyone to spot an ELEPHANT in a room, that's why we have so many spiritually blind people in (so called Churches)
 

Jackson123

Senior Member
Feb 6, 2014
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I do read both sides. I read Protestant Conservatives, Protestant Liberals, I read Biblical Scholars that do not associate with Christianity, I read Orthodox and Catholic authors.

One of my favorite authors is a Jewish Biblical Scholar out of University of Georgia, Richard Elliot Friedman, his book "Who Wrote the Bible (Old Testament)" is one of the most influential books I have read. At the same time, one of my favorite Conservative Authors is George Eldon Ladd, his books on the Kingdom has been a tremendous influence on my view of the NT. Just to round it out a bit, I read Peter Enns (considered Liberal by Conservatives), I am buying books by Karl Barth because I believe his insight theologically and his response to the German Death of God theology and World War II, is very helpful in where America is today.

To paint a picture of where I am coming from and what I believe is that, Protestantism is Nihilistic, and it goes back in part, to Martin Luther's attack on Aristotle. Catholic Europe spent a good thousand years trying to settle the issue and it was settled by Thomas Aquinas (Read: The Closing of the Western Mind by Charles Freeman) and Martin Luther attacked it and it unbalanced Europe and upended it. Which led to the Reformation, 30 years war, the establishment of the State over the Church, the French Revolution, The Enlightenment, The founding of America, Napoleon, Hegel and Marx and the founding of Communism and Marxism, the unification of Germany, Bismark, World War I and World War II, the Death of God theologically and philosophically. Everything that most Christians fight against or believe against, stems from Martin Luther. Within 50 years you had the Scientific Revolution which went after the central meaning of myth that has been established up to that point (See Jordan Peterson Maps of Meaning). In my post above I mentioned that I am reading the book "The Cave and the Light" by Arthur Herman and he documents the struggle between these two men from the past 3000 years.
You said protestant is nihilistic

ni·hil·is·tic
ˌnīəˈlistik,ˌnēəˈlistik/Submit
adjective
rejecting all religious and moral principles in the belief that life is meaningless.
"an embittered, nihilistic teenager"
Feedback

I don't think so, Martin protest against immorality of saling the forgiveness certificate by catholic.

So Martin is not rejecting moral principle, but pro moral principle.

So what you believe is exactly 180 degree opposites with reality.
 
Nov 12, 2015
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I wasn't referring to some errors, I'm talking about the ELEPHANT in the room. I know it's not easy for everyone to spot an ELEPHANT in a room, that's why we have so many spiritually blind people in (so called Churches)
I'm going to step away from conversation with you until the MarkWilliams who first came in here and grabbed our hearts comes back.
 

Paul1979

New member
Jun 19, 2018
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You said protestant is nihilistic

ni·hil·is·tic
ˌnīəˈlistik,ˌnēəˈlistik/Submit
adjective
rejecting all religious and moral principles in the belief that life is meaningless.
"an embittered, nihilistic teenager"
Feedback

I don't think so, Martin protest against immorality of saling the forgiveness certificate by catholic.

So Martin is not rejecting moral principle, but pro moral principle.

So what you believe is exactly 180 degree opposites with reality.
That is not the Nihilism I am referring to.

Nihilism that I am referring to is "Devaluation of Values", Nihilism is the process of Devaluation. Nietzsche defines it has "The Highest Values being Devalued", this is a process, and he defined it as Nihilism and the Value being devalued was God (God as Value) within European Culture.

That Definition of Nihilism is really Existential Nihilism. There are many forms of Nihilism, Political Nihilism, Legal Nihilism, Moral Nihilism, among many others.

I know what you are trying to do, definition: BOOM! I am Wrong!

I have studied Nihilism for the past 10 years, Nietzsche, Heidegger, Vatimo, and many other philosophers who have written on the subject. Nihilism is not used as you defined, and by the way, that is a fallacy, it is called an appeal to authority.

Protestantism is Nihilistic, because, it was born out of Nihilism. In simple terms, when The Ottoman Empire captured Constantinople, all of the Greek Philosophers and Scholars came to Italy and it triggered the Renaissance. The Renaissance occurred because two hundred years earlier Thomas Aquinas settled the Aristotle Issue within Europe. Which Martin Luther would destroy!

The Greek Philosophers and the Established Aristotelian Theology of the Catholic Church merged together, it sparked the Renaissance. The same thing happened in the 800's with Islam and it happened again with the American Revolution. Theology and Philosophy merged together in the proper context and the Islamic Golden Age was born and the Renaissance was born, and the American Revolution took place. That creates a very high valued Temporal Value that will decline. That decline is Nihilism.

The Reformation was born out of that decline, because, it was an antiphilosophical movement, just as its counterpart was antitheological The Enlightenment. Martin Luther almost singlehandedly upended Europe. Europe spent almost a thousand years settling the Plato/Aristotle struggle and Martin Luther upends it in a few years, almost completely destroying the legacy of Aristotle.

You want sources? I will give you whatever source you want for everything I just said. I hope you like to read!
 

OstrichSmiling

Well-known member
Jun 17, 2018
1,027
409
83
To be saved you have to believe in Jesus.
To believe in Jesus, it would seem logically necessary to have some vague idea of who or what he is.
The Mormons don't have even the remotest idea who he is.

In fact, the messiah they believe in is the EXACT OPPOSITE of the person the Bible calls Jesus.


I want them to be saved.

But this is just how it is.


----------
I believe if you return to the discussion I was having with stunnedbygrace you'll see we were not discussing the Mormons. We were discussing one Mormon she met and who had the Holy Spirit.
 
Nov 12, 2015
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You don't even appear to have a rational grasp of nihilism or existential nihilism...
You think Protestantism was born out of the idea that nothing has value?
I think you just like to hear yourself talk...
 

Jackson123

Senior Member
Feb 6, 2014
6,625
417
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That is not the Nihilism I am referring to.

Nihilism that I am referring to is "Devaluation of Values", Nihilism is the process of Devaluation. Nietzsche defines it has "The Highest Values being Devalued", this is a process, and he defined it as Nihilism and the Value being devalued was God (God as Value) within European Culture.

That Definition of Nihilism is really Existential Nihilism. There are many forms of Nihilism, Political Nihilism, Legal Nihilism, Moral Nihilism, among many others.

I know what you are trying to do, definition: BOOM! I am Wrong!

I have studied Nihilism for the past 10 years, Nietzsche, Heidegger, Vatimo, and many other philosophers who have written on the subject. Nihilism is not used as you defined, and by the way, that is a fallacy, it is called an appeal to authority.

Protestantism is Nihilistic, because, it was born out of Nihilism. In simple terms, when The Ottoman Empire captured Constantinople, all of the Greek Philosophers and Scholars came to Italy and it triggered the Renaissance. The Renaissance occurred because two hundred years earlier Thomas Aquinas settled the Aristotle Issue within Europe. Which Martin Luther would destroy!

The Greek Philosophers and the Established Aristotelian Theology of the Catholic Church merged together, it sparked the Renaissance. The same thing happened in the 800's with Islam and it happened again with the American Revolution. Theology and Philosophy merged together in the proper context and the Islamic Golden Age was born and the Renaissance was born, and the American Revolution took place. That creates a very high valued Temporal Value that will decline. That decline is Nihilism.

The Reformation was born out of that decline, because, it was an antiphilosophical movement, just as its counterpart was antitheological The Enlightenment. Martin Luther almost singlehandedly upended Europe. Europe spent almost a thousand years settling the Plato/Aristotle struggle and Martin Luther upends it in a few years, almost completely destroying the legacy of Aristotle.

You want sources? I will give you whatever source you want for everything I just said. I hope you like to read!

So you Defined nihilism as devaluation of values and Martin devalued God values?

I don't think so, I read definition of value from the dictionary below, values can mean ones judgement.

God not sale forgiveness certificate. Catholic devalued God rule and sale forgiveness certificate, Martin not devalued God he did all the way around.

val·ue
ˈvalyo͞o/Submit
noun
1.
the regard that something is held to deserve; the importance, worth, or usefulness of something.
"your support is of great value"
synonyms: worth, usefulness, advantage, benefit, gain, profit, good, help, merit, helpfulness, avail; More
2.
a person's principles or standards of behavior; one's judgment of what is important in life.
"they internalize their parents' rules and values"
synonyms: principles, ethics, moral code, morals, standards, code of behavior
"society's values are passed on to us as children"
verb
 

Paul1979

New member
Jun 19, 2018
27
2
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You don't even appear to have a rational grasp of nihilism or existential nihilism...
You think Protestantism was born out of the idea that nothing has value?
I think you just like to hear yourself talk...
Do you understand Nihilism?

Your understanding is just off the popular understanding of Nihilism.
 

Paul1979

New member
Jun 19, 2018
27
2
3
So you Defined nihilism as devaluation of values and Martin devalued God values?

I don't think so, I read definition of value from the dictionary below, values can mean ones judgement.

God not sale forgiveness certificate. Catholic devalued God rule and sale forgiveness certificate, Martin not devalued God he did all the way around.

val·ue
ˈvalyo͞o/Submit
noun
1.
the regard that something is held to deserve; the importance, worth, or usefulness of something.
"your support is of great value"
synonyms: worth, usefulness, advantage, benefit, gain, profit, good, help, merit, helpfulness, avail; More
2.
a person's principles or standards of behavior; one's judgment of what is important in life.
"they internalize their parents' rules and values"
synonyms: principles, ethics, moral code, morals, standards, code of behavior
"society's values are passed on to us as children"
verb
You are just posting definitions.
 

Paul1979

New member
Jun 19, 2018
27
2
3
You don't even appear to have a rational grasp of nihilism or existential nihilism...
You think Protestantism was born out of the idea that nothing has value?
I think you just like to hear yourself talk...
I take it you have never read Nitzsche? Heidegger? Gianni Vattimo?

Ever read anything on the concept of the Death of God?

If you have not, you are absolutely misunderstanding what I am arguing.
 
Nov 12, 2015
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Do you understand Nihilism?

Your understanding is just off the popular understanding of Nihilism.
Listen sir, I've spent two days already hearing men say that I don't understand what dead means and how it really means eternally existing.

Now I don't have the time to listen to how I don't understand what nihilism means either.

You guys can all rewrite the meanings of every single word in the dictionary if you want, but I'm too old and tired to relearn all of the words with different meanings.

I think a good word is commonsense.You can probably better say it as two separate words - common sense.
I know common sense seems boring to some people. But I think it's valuable. :D
 

Paul1979

New member
Jun 19, 2018
27
2
3
Listen sir, I've spent two days already hearing men say that I don't understand what dead means and how it really means eternally existing.

Now I don't have the time to listen to how I don't understand what nihilism means either.

You guys can all rewrite the meanings of every single word in the dictionary if you want, but I'm too old and tired to relearn all of the words with different meanings.

I think a good word is commonsense.You can probably better say it as two separate words - common sense.
I know common sense seems boring to some people. But I think it's valuable. :D
As I told the other guy, I have been studying this for over 10 years and what is unfortunate is that most people do not have the proper understanding of what Nihilism really is. People who do not know philosophy post the dictionary definition and it is woeful misstates the actual meaning.