Are Satan’s claims and accusations legitimate?

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S

Scribe

Guest
#1
Are Satan’s claims and accusations legitimate? Is he to be granted a legitimate right as god of this age? How has the ransom theory of the Atonement wrongly affirmed satanic claims and rights? What is wrong with such affirmations of satanic rights?
 

AndyMaleh

Well-known member
Jun 26, 2020
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#2
Do not give any attention to Satan. He doesn't deserve it. Focus all your attention on God and doing good instead. That's what Jesus Christ wants.
 

Blain

The Word Weaver
Aug 28, 2012
19,215
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#3
Are Satan’s claims and accusations legitimate? Is he to be granted a legitimate right as god of this age? How has the ransom theory of the Atonement wrongly affirmed satanic claims and rights? What is wrong with such affirmations of satanic rights?
Think in our flesh he wants us to believe it I have done so far more than I care to admit but we are born of the spirit and it is the spirit and blood of Christ that redeems us. For instance yes it is true we are sinners just as the devil loves to point that out but in Christ we are sinless. So really it is about if you are looking at the flesh or the spirit which one are we?

We are who God says we are regardless what we think or what the devil says whether there is any truth to it doesn't matter there is only one truth.
Look to the cross
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
24,610
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#4
Are Satan’s claims and accusations legitimate? Is he to be granted a legitimate right as god of this age? How has the ransom theory of the Atonement wrongly affirmed satanic claims and rights? What is wrong with such affirmations of satanic rights?
Satan is a LIAR AND THE FATHER OF LIES. He has no rights to anything, and no ransom was paid to Satan by God and Christ. That is false doctrine.

The Bible calls him "the god of this world" for the simple reason that the unbelieving and ungodly world is under his control, and he orchestrates events through his minions.
 

p_rehbein

Senior Member
Sep 4, 2013
30,292
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#5
How has the ransom theory of the Atonement wrongly affirmed satanic claims and rights?
1 Timothy, Chapter 2:

3For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
4Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
5For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

6Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

How do you come to the conclusion that our being "ransomed" is a THEORY? Are you saying that the Word of God is a "theory?" What is in Scripture is the Word of God, yes?

Maybe you will have the chance to debate this with Jesus Himself one day............after all, His blood was the "ransome" paid........

1 Peter, Chapter 1:

18Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;
19But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:

"redeemed" is "ransomed"

Thus: IMO, it is impossible for the Word of God to: "wrongly affirmed satanic claims and rights?"
 

p_rehbein

Senior Member
Sep 4, 2013
30,292
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#6
Atonement


A covering (for sin).
And he shall bring a ram without blemish out of the flock, with thy estimation, for a trespass offering, unto the priest: and the priest shall make an ATONEMENT for him concerning his ignorance wherein he erred and wist it not, and it shall be forgiven him. ( Leviticus 5:18 )​

ransom
RAN'SOM, n.

4. In Scripture, the price paid for a forfeited life, or for delivery or release from capital punishment.

Then he shall give for the ransom of his life, whatever is laid upon him. Ex. 21.

5. The price paid for procuring the pardon of sins and the redemption of the sinner from punishment.

Deliver him from going down to the pit; I have found a ransom. Job. 33.

The Son of man came - to give his life a ransom for many. Matt. 20. Mark 10.


reconciliation
RECONCILIA'TION, n. L. reconciliatio.

2. In Scripture, the means by which sinners are reconciled and brought into a state of favor with God, after natural estrangement or enmity; the atonement; expiation.


Scripture is clear and does not contradict itself.............
 

soggykitten

Well-known member
Jul 3, 2020
2,322
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#7
In Hebrews 2 we read, Jesus came as a man to die in order to “destroy him who holds the power of death – that is, the devil,” a power Satan had held “from the beginning”.
I think that tells us that Satan has no more power over death since we who are faithful will not taste the second death.But Satan remains the lord of this world, as we see in 1 John 5:19 and that the world is under his control. We are warned that we have to keep our guard up too. 1 Peter 5:8 says, “Be alert and of sober mind. Your enemy the devil prowls around like a roaring lion looking for someone to devour.”

I don't know why God arranged this. But it is what it is.
 
S

Scribe

Guest
#8
1 Timothy, Chapter 2:

3For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
4Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
5For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

6Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

How do you come to the conclusion that our being "ransomed" is a THEORY? Are you saying that the Word of God is a "theory?" What is in Scripture is the Word of God, yes?

Maybe you will have the chance to debate this with Jesus Himself one day............after all, His blood was the "ransome" paid........

1 Peter, Chapter 1:

18Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;
19But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:

"redeemed" is "ransomed"

Thus: IMO, it is impossible for the Word of God to: "wrongly affirmed satanic claims and rights?"
The question is about satan's so called rights to the world, to death, to hell etc. The teachings that have been in the church for centuries that Jesus had to pay a ransom to the devil, or satisfy some kind of legal right that the devil held over mankind. The ransom Jesus paid was to satisfy the just judgment of God but some will teach about having to satisfy some claim that the devil had. The questions came from a theology book.
 
Dec 28, 2016
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#9
Are Satan’s claims and accusations legitimate? Is he to be granted a legitimate right as god of this age? How has the ransom theory of the Atonement wrongly affirmed satanic claims and rights? What is wrong with such affirmations of satanic rights?
Which claims and accusations are you referring to? What satanic "rights?" Scripture?
 
L

lenna

Guest
#10
The question is about satan's so called rights to the world, to death, to hell etc. The teachings that have been in the church for centuries that Jesus had to pay a ransom to the devil, or satisfy some kind of legal right that the devil held over mankind. The ransom Jesus paid was to satisfy the just judgment of God but some will teach about having to satisfy some claim that the devil had. The questions came from a theology book.
personally, I never heard of this 'pay the devil his due' scenario

I agree God required a perfect sacrifice, the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world, and all the devil got to do was watch
 

Grandpa

Senior Member
Jun 24, 2011
11,551
3,189
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#11
personally, I never heard of this 'pay the devil his due' scenario

I agree God required a perfect sacrifice, the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world, and all the devil got to do was watch
If the devil knew that Christ was paying the ransom I'm sure he would have tried to prevent it.

So, it doesn't seem like the ransom was going to the devil but to God.
 

CS1

Well-known member
May 23, 2012
12,411
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#14
The question is about satan's so called rights to the world, to death, to hell etc. The teachings that have been in the church for centuries that Jesus had to pay a ransom to the devil, or satisfy some kind of legal right that the devil held over mankind. The ransom Jesus paid was to satisfy the just judgment of God but some will teach about having to satisfy some claim that the devil had. The questions came from a theology book.
hmm, How does God pay a ransom to the devil? Is the devil going to get out of the Lake of fire when God places him there? No. Sin is the only problem Jesus is the answer. The Payment of sin was made to a Holy God who demands Blood for sin. We are all guilty and the devil was not the cause of that, we did, our own willful disobedience. the devil just hurls accusations and accuses us because HE is saying Look what your creation did, you did not let me get away with that and you call yourself Holy? That is where Jesus shows with in Himself the payment of our sins and we are justified. Something the devil can never have. Anyone want to guess why the devil hates us so much?
 
Jan 12, 2019
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#15
The question is about satan's so called rights to the world, to death, to hell etc. The teachings that have been in the church for centuries that Jesus had to pay a ransom to the devil, or satisfy some kind of legal right that the devil held over mankind. The ransom Jesus paid was to satisfy the just judgment of God but some will teach about having to satisfy some claim that the devil had. The questions came from a theology book.
The ransom was not to Satan, but to God's law. Romans 7

Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?


2 For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband.


3 So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man.


4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.


5 For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.


6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
24,610
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#16
The ransom was not to Satan, but to God's law. Romans 7
That passage says nothing about a ransom being paid to the Law. The Bible is very clear that the ransom for souls was paid to God (the LORD).

When thou takest the sum of the children of Israel after their number, then shall they give every man a ransom for his soul unto the LORD, when thou numberest them; that there be no plague among them, when thou numberest them. (Exod 30:12)

Then He [God] is gracious unto him [the one about to die], and saith, Deliver him from going down to the pit [Sheol]: I have found a ransom [Christ]. (Job 33:24)

None of them can by any means redeem his brother, nor give to God a ransom for him: (For the redemption of their soul is precious, and it ceaseth for ever). (Psa 49:8)

[Christ says] I will ransom them from the power of the grave; I will redeem them from death: O death, I will be thy plagues; O grave, I will be thy destruction: repentance shall be hid from mine eyes. (Hos 13:14)

Even as the Son of Man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many. (Mt 20:28; Mk 10:45)

For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time. (1 Tim 2:5,6)

Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood. (Acts 20:28)
 
Jan 12, 2019
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#17
That passage says nothing about a ransom being paid to the Law. The Bible is very clear that the ransom for souls was paid to God (the LORD).

When thou takest the sum of the children of Israel after their number, then shall they give every man a ransom for his soul unto the LORD, when thou numberest them; that there be no plague among them, when thou numberest them. (Exod 30:12)

Then He [God] is gracious unto him [the one about to die], and saith, Deliver him from going down to the pit [Sheol]: I have found a ransom [Christ]. (Job 33:24)

None of them can by any means redeem his brother, nor give to God a ransom for him: (For the redemption of their soul is precious, and it ceaseth for ever). (Psa 49:8)

[Christ says] I will ransom them from the power of the grave; I will redeem them from death: O death, I will be thy plagues; O grave, I will be thy destruction: repentance shall be hid from mine eyes. (Hos 13:14)

Even as the Son of Man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many. (Mt 20:28; Mk 10:45)

For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time. (1 Tim 2:5,6)

Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood. (Acts 20:28)
What do you understand by verse 1 then, the Law had dominion over all of us?

God gave the Law so okay, if you want to claim that the ransom is paid to God, instead of the Law, I am fine with that too.
 
S

Scribe

Guest
#19
@Scribe? I was hoping for an answer to the above so I know what you're getting at.
They were questions from a Systematic Theology book I thought I would post to see if they generated a good discussion.

Here is the narrative from the book:

Among Christians, the tendency to emphasize the role of Satan has even led at times to a willingness to legitimize his position and role over against God, as though Satan had a rightful claim to persons or governments, as though his position as “god of this age” should be respected by people, even by God! Contrary to what some might think, there is in Jude 9 no respect for Satan in the angelic hesitation to bring a slanderous accusation against him. The angel Michael held back any accusation based on his own authority in order to say, “The Lord rebuke you!” This means that any rejection of Satan’s deceptive claims can come only from God’s authority and God’s grace, not from one’s own self-generated wisdom or authority.

Actually, a notion of satanic rights was supported by the ransom theory of the Atonement advocated by certain early and medieval Latin theologians of the West and by Origen in the East. This theory assumed that Satan had a right to govern and oppress humanity because of human rebellion against God. Christ was sent to pay Satan a ransom for the release of humanity. This ransom theory, however, eliminates from the beginning any real opposition between God and Satan. Assumed is God’s acceptance of Satan’s position and role and God’s willingness to deal with Satan on Satan’s terms. Satan is allowed to have his own legitimate place apart from God’s redemptive purpose, a place that God must respect in God’s effort to redeem humanity!

Over against this ransom theory is the biblical teaching that Satan’s position and role are based on a lie (John 8:44). They have no legitimacy that God must recognize and to which God must conform! The triumph of God’s grace over the forces of darkness grants no respectful and legitimate place to their role and claims. Satan, as “god of this age,” has an illegitimate position granted to him by humanity’s own spiritual blindness and rebellion (2 Cor. 4:4). A “payment” was indeed made by Christ on the cross, not to Satan, but to God on humanity’s behalf.71

Horton, Stanley M.. Systematic Theology: Revised Edition . BookMasters. Kindle Edition.
 
Dec 28, 2016
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#20
@Scribe those are some good thoughts to sort through.

I often wonder if "the god of this world" in 2 Corinthians 4 is really referring to Satan as many suggest.