Are there any God ordained feasts I can partake in?

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R

Ralph-

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"They are valuable illustrations of spiritual realities." So are the sacrifices.
Yep.


That same argument could be used to justify sacrificing and eating a lamb at Passover, "all the while knowing it's an illustration of ..."
Yep, again.
Is there a problem with that?
Of course not.
....except if a person is incapable of worshiping that way without it feeling to them like they are trying to be justified by what they are doing.



Saying that you don’t really mean your observance as an act of obedience but only as a symbolic gesture does not negate the fact that the very act of observing a commandment is an act of obedience, no matter your motives.
How do you get that?

Just because you may be incapable of doing something for a reason other than a required obedience of law doesn't mean everyone else is incapable of that too.

I'll say it again.........take a big step of Christian maturity, folks........stop projecting your feelings and ways onto others. They aren't just like you. I know that it is the natural tendency of us all to think 'since I feel and think this way surely everyone else must to', but it's completely and utterly false. Everyone else doesn't think and feel the way you do. There are people who can keep a Mosaic observance without thinking they are trying to justify themselves and can do it out of love and appreciation for God. Especially when the alternative system of worship created for us by the early Catholic church is clearly pagan to them.


So the problem in observing the Mosaic Feasts, just like with observing the Mosaic sacrifices, is that you are observing the shadows and promises of what Messiah would one day do as if he has not yet come and accomplished everything those old shadows promised.
No. That is the problem for you.

Just because you are incapable of observing the feast and sabbath cycle in appreciation and love for what God has done for us in Christ doesn't mean everybody else is incapable too. As I say, take a big step of Christian maturity. Let other believers be able to think different thoughts and have different feelings than you think they have to have because you have them. They belong to Christ too. If you are concerned that they are wrong God has accepted them too and is able to make them stand:

"God has accepted him. 4Who are you to judge the servant of another? To his own master he stands or falls; and he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand. "-Romans 14:3-4



That is the reason God removed everything He had provided for the Old Covenant's observance rendering it not only ineffectual but literally impossible to practice those things which in the former days made reconciliation and fellowship with God possible. Because in these last days he has made a new and living Way.
Since the observances are not required for justification you do not need to do them to the letter of the law. So it does not matter that the temple is not here anymore. You can still worship God in love and thankfulness and appreciation through the Mosaic observances without the temple.
 

Pilgrimer

Junior Member
Jan 1, 2018
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It's pretty obvious that the lord's supper has become the new covenant passover.
It's more than that. The Lord's Supper is the New Covenant celebration of ALL the feasts, and ALL the sacrifices.

It is rather mind-blowing that all those myriads of Old Covenant commandments and ordinances concerning all those feast days and the manifold accompanying sacrifices and offerings, which is what the people feasted on, spread out over the course of a year, celebrated over and over year after year were all designed to predict and teach about that one single New Covenant feast, the body and blood of Jesus, symbolized by a simple meal of bread and wine. We can spend our entire lives studying all the jots and tittles that lie within that humble lot and portion that we as New Covenant believers partake of, and still not fully comprehend all it signifies.

But THAT is what the Law was given to do, to be our teacher, to teach us what the Lord's Supper signifies in order to bring us closer and closer to Christ.

If you desire to "keep God's feasts" in spirit and in truth, then keep the Lord's Supper growing continually in understanding and appreciation of just what all that simple bread and wine signifies.

In Christ,
Pilgrimer
 
Sep 4, 2012
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The more I think about it, observing the festivals as a reverent observance would be like offering animals as sacrifices for the same reason.
 

Blik

Senior Member
Dec 6, 2016
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"They are valuable illustrations of spiritual realities." So are the sacrifices.



That same argument could be used to justify sacrificing and eating a lamb at Passover, "all the while knowing it's an illustration of ..."




I understand your point but I think there is more to it than what you are suggesting. Observance of the Mosaic feasts wasn’t just a commemoration of what God had done, it was commanded in the Mosaic Law as an act of covenant obedience. Saying that you don’t really mean your observance as an act of obedience but only as a symbolic gesture does not negate the fact that the very act of observing a commandment is an act of obedience, no matter your motives.

But what you said about communion (the Eucharist, the Lord’s Supper, the Marriage Supper of the Lamb, the Wedding Feast, all different terms used in the New Testament) shows that you don’t fully grasp what the one and only New Covenant “feast” really is. Just as the sacrifice of Jesus fulfills every jot and tittle of the Mosaic sacrifices, that one “supper” also fulfills every jot and tittle of the Mosaic feasts. When New Testament believers partake of the bread and wine (body and blood), we are remembering not God delivering the Jews from Egypt, but God delivering the church from sin in fulfillment of what God delivering the Jews from Egypt foreshadowed.

So the problem in observing the Mosaic Feasts, just like with observing the Mosaic sacrifices, is that you are observing the shadows and promises of what Messiah would one day do as if he has not yet come and accomplished everything those old shadows promised.

That is the reason God removed everything He had provided for the Old Covenant's observance rendering it not only ineffectual but literally impossible to practice those things which in the former days made reconciliation and fellowship with God possible. Because in these last days he has made a new and living Way.

In Christ,
Pilgrimer
You delve deeper, not just at the surface of obedience!

That sends us to the book of James, where does actions come in with our worship. James explains that just as actions without understanding doesn't fly, neither does understanding without actions.
 

Pilgrimer

Junior Member
Jan 1, 2018
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Especially when the alternative system of worship created for us by the early Catholic church is clearly pagan to them.

Ah, I think this is really the crux of the matter. I don’t know which came first, the legalism or the anti-Christianism, or perhaps they worked together, but that must be what has drawn you away from the simplicity of the Gospel and prevented you from maturing in the faith.


"God has accepted him. 4Who are you to judge the servant of another? To his own master he stands or falls; and he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand. "-Romans 14:3-4



You left out the part where Paul says mature Christians are to receive those who are weak in the faith whose conscience makes them feel compelled to practice laws (dietary, holy days, sabbaths, etc. Romans 14:1-2).



My friend, the bottom line is that the one and only way to worship God and truly show him our love and appreciation for all He has done is by commemoration of the sacrifice of His Son. That sacrifice alone has saved us. That sacrifice alone has washed us and made us clean. That sacrifice alone has delivered us from bondage. That sacrifice alone has atoned for our sins. That sacrifice alone has clothed us in righteousness. That sacrifice alone has made us fit for the Marriage Supper. That sacrifice alone has made us citizens of God’s Kingdom. That sacrifice alone has opened to us the gates of the Holy City. That sacrifice alone has parted the veil into the Holy of Holies. That sacrifice alone has made us presentable fruits to God. And there is no feast or commemoration whereby you can truly worship God and show Him your love and appreciation than by observing the Lord’s Supper, lovingly, meditatively, thankfully, worshipfully, in full and honest recognition that we owe absolutely everything God has done for us to that one sacrifice alone



To add anything to it is to say it is not enough.



In Christ,

Pilgrimer
 

Blik

Senior Member
Dec 6, 2016
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It's more than that. The Lord's Supper is the New Covenant celebration of ALL the feasts, and ALL the sacrifices.

It is rather mind-blowing that all those myriads of Old Covenant commandments and ordinances concerning all those feast days and the manifold accompanying sacrifices and offerings, which is what the people feasted on, spread out over the course of a year, celebrated over and over year after year were all designed to predict and teach about that one single New Covenant feast, the body and blood of Jesus, symbolized by a simple meal of bread and wine. We can spend our entire lives studying all the jots and tittles that lie within that humble lot and portion that we as New Covenant believers partake of, and still not fully comprehend all it signifies.

But THAT is what the Law was given to do, to be our teacher, to teach us what the Lord's Supper signifies in order to bring us closer and closer to Christ.

If you desire to "keep God's feasts" in spirit and in truth, then keep the Lord's Supper growing continually in understanding and appreciation of just what all that simple bread and wine signifies.

In Christ,
Pilgrimer
A covenant is a relationship that is established. As an example in ancient times there was a marriage covenant established when a couple became engaged. It is the way of a relationship between us and God. The old ways of our relationship with God wasn't discontinued when we were given a new way to relate to Him, it was a way to make it better.

The old relationship had animal sacrifice for atonement, this was brought forward to a relationship to Christ's sacrifice for forgiveness.

When God established this new way of relating, or rather of not breaking the old way but bringing it forward, the relationship we have with Him by celebrating the feasts was not part of it. God's plan of redemption for us was established and does no and will not change. The Lord's supper is celebrating that Christ died for us, a celebration we are given to reinforce our faith. We ALSO have the celebration of Passover, also a celebration of Christ. The seven feasts outline God's plan of redemption for us, nothing came along to take its place.
 

Blik

Senior Member
Dec 6, 2016
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Ah, I think this is really the crux of the matter. I don’t know which came first, the legalism or the anti-Christianism, or perhaps they worked together, but that must be what has drawn you away from the simplicity of the Gospel and prevented you from maturing in the faith.





You left out the part where Paul says mature Christians are to receive those who are weak in the faith whose conscience makes them feel compelled to practice laws (dietary, holy days, sabbaths, etc. Romans 14:1-2).



My friend, the bottom line is that the one and only way to worship God and truly show him our love and appreciation for all He has done is by commemoration of the sacrifice of His Son. That sacrifice alone has saved us. That sacrifice alone has washed us and made us clean. That sacrifice alone has delivered us from bondage. That sacrifice alone has atoned for our sins. That sacrifice alone has clothed us in righteousness. That sacrifice alone has made us fit for the Marriage Supper. That sacrifice alone has made us citizens of God’s Kingdom. That sacrifice alone has opened to us the gates of the Holy City. That sacrifice alone has parted the veil into the Holy of Holies. That sacrifice alone has made us presentable fruits to God. And there is no feast or commemoration whereby you can truly worship God and show Him your love and appreciation than by observing the Lord’s Supper, lovingly, meditatively, thankfully, worshipfully, in full and honest recognition that we owe absolutely everything God has done for us to that one sacrifice alone

To add anything to it is to say it is not enough.

In Christ,

Pilgrimer
Right on! But to tell God no, I will not celebrate your redemption plan is to dishonor Christ.
 

Blik

Senior Member
Dec 6, 2016
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Right on! But to tell God no, I will not celebrate your redemption plan is to dishonor Christ.
To celebrate Christ with the feasts is NOT going away from Christ.

Today's church is wrapping all ways of celebrating and living for Christ except Sunday church into the word legalism. When our body responds to what is in our minds it is not legalism. Legalism is doing as an act of worship without the heart and mind's involvement.

When the Pharisee put on sackcloth and made a show of praying in order to impress the people around him, that was legalism because he expected the act of praying to act as obedience. If we celebrate the feasts as a fun supper with friends only, that is legalism. To praise the Lord with a feast is worship.
 

BenFTW

Senior Member
Oct 7, 2012
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Right on! But to tell God no, I will not celebrate your redemption plan is to dishonor Christ.
That is a whole lot of children of God dishonoring Christ then, in your judgement. Do you suppose it brings honor to Jesus when people partake in Communion, that is in remembrance of what He did through His flesh and blood? Why then do you say that people who do not celebrate feasts foreshadowing Christ are dishonoring Christ, when they celebrate Him as often as they like (through Communion)?

Which is greater to God? To celebrate a feast that pointed to the work of the Messiah, or to actually celebrate the work of the Messiah, honoring Him in gratitude for what He endured for our sake, and the joy set before Him?
 

Pilgrimer

Junior Member
Jan 1, 2018
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A covenant is a relationship that is established. As an example in ancient times there was a marriage covenant established when a couple became engaged. It is the way of a relationship between us and God. The old ways of our relationship with God wasn't discontinued when we were given a new way to relate to Him, it was a way to make it better.
The Old Covenant was the promise, the betrothal. The New Covenant is the promise fulfilled, the marriage. So I would have to disagree, being married means the old relationship of being betrothed ended.

The old relationship had animal sacrifice for atonement, this was brought forward to a relationship to Christ's sacrifice for forgiveness.

When God established this new way of relating, or rather of not breaking the old way but bringing it forward, the relationship we have with Him by celebrating the feasts was not part of it.
I don't agree. What exactly do you think the whole point of the feasts were? They were days set aside when the people would come up to Jerusalem and offer up sacrifices and offerings and that evening they would feast on portions of those sacrifices and offerings. That's what these "feasts" were, meals where the people "feasted on" portions of the sacrifices in remembrance of things God had done in the past. The sacrifices were the central part of the feast, that's why the Jews had to come to Jerusalem to observe them, to be able to make the required sacrifices at the Temple.

On regular days only the priests on duty in the Temple ate of the sacrifices. But on feast days God received the sacrifices and offerings and then in turn gave each person a portion to eat in celebration of things He had done. That's what "feast" means, to eat a meal, and the meal the people ate at the feasts was their lot and their portion of the sacrifices. You can't separate a sacrifice from the feast at which you feasted on that sacrifice. A feast without the food is not a feast.


The Lord's supper is celebrating that Christ died for us, a celebration we are given to reinforce our faith. We ALSO have the celebration of Passover, also a celebration of Christ ...
That's not true. The Jews were told to observe the Passover to "remember" what God had done in delivering them from Egypt. Now the Mosaic Passover predicted (foreshadowed, was a type or figure or symbolic of) the sacrifice that Christ would one day make to deliver the church from sin, but the Mosaic Passover was not a feast given to "remember" the sacrifice of Christ as it had not yet happened. The Lord's Supper is the only feast at which we we "remember" the sacrifice of Jesus, but it is also the New Covenant Day of Atonement, and the New Covenant Feast of Firstfruits, and the New Covenant Pentecost, and the New Covenant Trumpets and the New Covenant Tabernacles, all of which have myriad details that teach us all about what Jesus' sacrifice means for us.

There are immeasurable treasures to be gleaned from studying these things and what they can teach us about the Gospel and I always encourage students to look into them, but there is nothing to be gained from practicing these old commandments. In fact, everyone I have ever encountered that practices these things always lose sight of the Gospel and wind up observing the shadows of God's Plan of Salvation and not discerning the substance of it.

In Christ,
Pilgrimer
 

Pilgrimer

Junior Member
Jan 1, 2018
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To celebrate Christ with the feasts is NOT going away from Christ.
The Mosaic feasts were not "remembrances" of Christ. They were remembrances of things God had done in the past, during Old Testament times.

The Lord's Supper is the "remembrance" of Christ, and the things God has done during New Testament times. The Lord's Supper is the only remembrance of Christ because absolutely everything that God has done was accomplished through that one sacrifice.

Today's church is wrapping all ways of celebrating and living for Christ except Sunday church into the word legalism.
No, "legalism" usually refers to observance of Mosaic Commandments (whatever the reason).

When our body responds to what is in our minds it is not legalism. Legalism is doing as an act of worship without the heart and mind's involvement.

When the Pharisee put on sackcloth and made a show of praying in order to impress the people around him, that was legalism because he expected the act of praying to act as obedience. If we celebrate the feasts as a fun supper with friends only, that is legalism. To praise the Lord with a feast is worship.
Jesus never accused the Pharisees of legalism, but of hypocrisy, which is what outward acts of religious duty without sincere devotion is called. Legalism is adherence to outward acts of religious duty, regardless of the motive.

In Christ,
Pilgrimer
 

Pilgrimer

Junior Member
Jan 1, 2018
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That is a whole lot of children of God dishonoring Christ then, in your judgement.
I wouldn't judge observing Mosaic feasts to be dishonoring Christ, but rather I think it is a weak and immature way to honor Christ.

Do you suppose it brings honor to Jesus when people partake in Communion, that is in remembrance of what He did through His flesh and blood?
That depends. If it is done as a religious duty without sincere faith, or as a fix to gain salvation without living a life trusting in and depending on the reality of that sacrifice, then no, that would be hypocrisy and not at all honoring to Christ. In fact, Paul goes much further and states that anyone who takes the Lord's Supper unworthily, not discerning the Lord's body, is guilty of the body and blood of Jesus, eating and drinking damnation to themselves (1 Corinthians 11:27-29). So it's a pretty heavy thing and should not be taken lightly but with deep and reverent soul-searching and appreciation of the mystery and magnitude of it all.

Why then do you say that people who do not celebrate feasts foreshadowing Christ are dishonoring Christ, when they celebrate Him as often as they like (through Communion)?

Could you reword that question, I think you may have meant "people do DO celebrate feasts foreshadowing Christ ..."?

Which is greater to God? To celebrate a feast that pointed to the work of the Messiah, or to actually celebrate the work of the Messiah, honoring Him in gratitude for what He endured for our sake, and the joy set before Him?

I think the substance is greater than the shadow for the simple reason that heavenly realities are greater than earthly types.

Which do you think is greater, the Passover lambs that foreshadowed Christ? Or Christ?

In Christ,
Pilgrimer
 

Blik

Senior Member
Dec 6, 2016
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That is a whole lot of children of God dishonoring Christ then, in your judgement. Do you suppose it brings honor to Jesus when people partake in Communion, that is in remembrance of what He did through His flesh and blood? Why then do you say that people who do not celebrate feasts foreshadowing Christ are dishonoring Christ, when they celebrate Him as often as they like (through Communion)?

Which is greater to God? To celebrate a feast that pointed to the work of the Messiah, or to actually celebrate the work of the Messiah, honoring Him in gratitude for what He endured for our sake, and the joy set before Him?
I cannot judge, that is the place for Christ. What I think has absolutely no importance at all, but what God thinks is all important. We are talking about determining what God thinks and we have His word to go on.

Yes, I think todays church is way, way off God's way. I cried when I first saw this, and worked long hours trying to disprove that idea. I went back in history to find out who started such thinking. I went through the reports of every single church council for 700 years. I compared every single idea to scripture and went into history to find out what motivated them.

You are saying that it is God's way to substitute the Lord's Supper for the feasts, and the only celebration we are told to do to celebrate Christ.

If I said that the feasts were given to us first, so they are foremost and the Lord's Supper is covered by that so we can say no to it wouldn't you know I am not speaking for the Lord? I is the same way when someone says the Lord's Supper covers the feast so the Lord tells us to do away with them.
 

Blik

Senior Member
Dec 6, 2016
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I wouldn't judge observing Mosaic feasts to be dishonoring Christ, but rather I think it is a weak and immature way to honor Christ.

That depends. If it is done as a religious duty without sincere faith, or as a fix to gain salvation without living a life trusting in and depending on the reality of that sacrifice, then no, that would be hypocrisy and not at all honoring to Christ. In fact, Paul goes much further and states that anyone who takes the Lord's Supper unworthily, not discerning the Lord's body, is guilty of the body and blood of Jesus, eating and drinking damnation to themselves (1 Corinthians 11:27-29). So it's a pretty heavy thing and should not be taken lightly but with deep and reverent soul-searching and appreciation of the mystery and magnitude of it all.
I think the action that people make --the act of letting the designated time God gives go by without acknowledging it is a dishonor of Christ. It is completely separate from the communion service, and I don't understand why people keep bringing up that service when we are speaking of the feasts.

And also, whenever anyone speaks of doing something that involves physical doing, it is brought up that physical doing alone isn't enough. Of course it isn't enough, but because it isn't it has nothing to do with the need to do. We are told to do, we are told to use our heart with our doing. One does not cancel out the other.

It is as if today's Christians can only have one thing at a time, they can't combine two things.
 

JGIG

Senior Member
Aug 2, 2013
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Did the Lord tell us that for all generations you must travel to Jerusalem to my festivals? I don't think God did.

Have you read the Old Testament???


7 They want to be teachers of the law, but they do not know what they are talking about or what they so confidently affirm. (from 1 Tim. 1)


The Law is nothing if not specific in how it is to be obeyed, including how animal sacrifices are to be made, by whom, and where.

If you are a male in your household, there are feasts that require your attendance in Jerusalem.

If you're interested in keeping the Law as God gave it, that is what is required.

-JGIG
 

JGIG

Senior Member
Aug 2, 2013
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Kind of a weird coincidence, but as I opened up my laptop the time was 1:19 AM, and as soon as I went to this thread you brought up Psalm 119. I read all of it, and it is powerful what the writer conveys, in how much they value God's precepts, commands, and ways. They value His word.
One of the questions I have (for those of the HRM, and those learning from them) is, when the temple in 70 AD was destroyed, how could obedience to the Law be fulfilled if a portion of it is no longer capable of being obedient to? If it is a covenant, and in that covenant we are to sacrifice animals for sin, and now we are no longer able to do so, doesn't that make the covenant obsolete? Since if you fail in one part you fail in all of it, not upholding one part makes all of it crumble, no?

Its been said that while the Law of Moses is holy, just and good, it has no power to make you so. I think its so important to understand that morality doesn't sanctify us, God does.

That God Himself allowed the Temple to be destroyed speaks to His willingness to further frustrate the keeping of the Law after the Work of Christ. And the Temple was not just destroyed - it was decimated.

It also speaks of the UNwillingness of Israel to get that temple and priesthood back up and running in order to properly keep the Laws given to Israel at Sinai! And for all those who are Torah pursuant - why are they not lending a hand to Israel to get that temple rebuilt? Many follow closely the Temple Institute to see how much progress is being made, but why not go over there and help them to get 'er done?!

-JGIG
 

JGIG

Senior Member
Aug 2, 2013
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Torah tells about God, and God was before creation God didn't just happen so Moses invented Him. At the time of Moses it was all written down, but these truths always were the truths of the world of God.
What is your source for the above information? I'm not clear on what you're saying - it 'was all written down' by Moses or at the time of Moses? Who do you say wrote it all down?

Torah is not an eternal written document, though I understand that some who are Torah pursuant would disagree with that statement.

Torah does not predate Moses.


The simplicity of Christ was also part of God and God is the I Am. You cannot know Christ separate from the Father, they are one. There is no scripture that opposes another scripture, they work together.

Aw, you changed what I said. I was referring to the simplicity that is IN Christ - the Gospel - the Good News of the Work of Christ. I agree - Christ is God, and Scripture does not oppose itself. There is a right dividing of the Scriptures, however, and not all Scriptures are written for every person. Commands to slay Philistines or build an ark, for example, are Scripture, but do not apply to all who read those commands.

Likewise, commands to keep certain feasts, days, and dietary laws do not apply to all who read those commands.


If Paul was teaching that we now do not need to learn from God or listen to God or God's law, then Paul is teaching something that is opposed to what God tells us and we would have to toss out all Paul said as not scripture. Paul gave us scripture, it does NOT oppose God.
Paul did indeed write that all Scripture is God-breathed and good for teaching - but Paul never said that we who are in Christ are to observe the Law. Quite the contrary, Paul teaches consistently that we who are in Christ are dead to the Law, free from the Law, released from the Law, etc.

A good study on this can be found here:




Paul was saying what I have repeated here, the rituals God gave to help the people obey the law, much as a schoolmaster guides children to school, are to be replaced by the Holy Spirit. That would not include the feasts because the feasts were given to us and we were told they were to be observed by all generations. If Paul said to ignore what God said Paul would not have been of God. God did not say you must be kosher for all generations. God didn't say that of circumcision. But we are to be led by the spirit what these rituals led to.

The Law, as given to Israel at Sinai, was given as a comprehensive unit. There is no picking and choosing which parts or how one might most conveniently 'keep' the parts of the Law they feel like keeping.



My information comes from many years of hours a day study. The deep sea scrolls were the source that started scholars to search ancient Hebrew history. It opened up many areas of study. For background information there are books on ancient Hebrews, but the authors of each history must be researched to be sure their source of information is accurate. They also have to be checked to be sure they don't have an agenda that would lead them to only give history that supports theirs.

I think you may mean the Dead Sea Scrolls. And the Dead Sea Scrolls didn't contradict anything in the established, accepted canon of Scripture, though there are many extra-biblical writings that folks in aberrant belief systems latch onto as if they were Scriptures.

So who are the authors that you consider to be reputable? Please post the references here so that we may examine those you have learned from for ourselves!

Thanks,
-JGIG
 

Blik

Senior Member
Dec 6, 2016
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What is your source for the above information? I'm not clear on what you're saying - it 'was all written down' by Moses or at the time of Moses? Who do you say wrote it all down?

Torah is not an eternal written document, though I understand that some who are Torah pursuant would disagree with that statement.

Torah does not predate Moses.

w, you changed what I said. I was referring to the simplicity that is IN Christ - the Gospel - the Good News of the Work of Christ. I agree - Christ is God, and Scripture does not oppose itself. There is a right dividing of the Scriptures, however, and not all Scriptures are written for every person. Commands to slay Philistines or build an ark, for example, are Scripture, but do not apply to all who read those commands.

Likewise, commands to keep certain feasts, days, and dietary laws do not apply to all who read those commands.

Paul did indeed write that all Scripture is God-breathed and good for teaching - but Paul never said that we who are in Christ are to observe the Law. Quite the contrary, Paul teaches consistently that we who are in Christ are dead to the Law, free from the Law, released from the Law, etc.

A good study on this can be found here:

The Law, as given to Israel at Sinai, was given as a comprehensive unit. There is no picking and choosing which parts or how one might most conveniently 'keep' the parts of the Law they feel like keeping.

I think you may mean the Dead Sea Scrolls. And the Dead Sea Scrolls didn't contradict anything in the established, accepted canon of Scripture, though there are many extra-biblical writings that folks in aberrant belief systems latch onto as if they were Scriptures.

So who are the authors that you consider to be reputable? Please post the references here so that we may examine those you have learned from for ourselves!
Thanks,
-JGIG
Over the years I have not written down every single book that I read. I do my own research of authors as I expect you to do. This is the result of MY study, check me out with your own study if you are interested in being sure that you understand God's word for us.

If I read history books I checked to be sure that the authors were at least endorsed by one of our leading universities. I also checked to see if he learned from up to date research and archeology findings. I suggest students do that.

The Torah is the first five books of the bible and tells of the world from the beginning. In it we can read of all the ways God interacts with mankind and what His policies are.

Some of it is very bewildering to today's readers because God dictated the His ideas to the men who wrote it and these men wrote them down using the way they understood the world to be---the world has changed today. It has to be read as in the context of the time it is speaking of. An exception to this is when that scripture tells us they are writing God's actual words as in "God says".

The commands have to be rightfully divided. Some Paul explained the Holy Spirit replaced for us. Some require something that is no more, like earthly priests for Christ is our priest or a temple that is no longer here.

Some must always be done, and those few are specified by God usually by the words "for all generations".

Dividing the law in this way is not picking and choosing, it is following God in a way that a study of all scripture tells us. The law is not given as one only unit.

All this is beside the point, for we are told to celebrate the feasts "for all generations". That is plain enough.

As an example: It is given as law for all males to have the foreskin cut in eight days old males. By studying all scripture we learn why that was made law, why it is no longer required, and what of the requirements of this law is still something we must do.
 

JGIG

Senior Member
Aug 2, 2013
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Over the years I have not written down every single book that I read. I do my own research of authors as I expect you to do. This is the result of MY study, check me out with your own study if you are interested in being sure that you understand God's word for us.

If I read history books I checked to be sure that the authors were at least endorsed by one of our leading universities. I also checked to see if he learned from up to date research and archeology findings. I suggest students do that.

The Torah is the first five books of the bible and tells of the world from the beginning. In it we can read of all the ways God interacts with mankind and what His policies are.
Actually, the Pentateuch, the first five books of the Bible, do not contain all of the ways God interacts with mankind.

God in the flesh, Christ, came to relate to mankind in a way pointing to and to ratify the New Covenant, which gave God's righteousness and new life as gifts - apart from the Law. See Romans chapters 1-3.


Some of it is very bewildering to today's readers because God dictated the His ideas to the men who wrote it and these men wrote them down using the way they understood the world to be---the world has changed today. It has to be read as in the context of the time it is speaking of. An exception to this is when that scripture tells us they are writing God's actual words as in "God says".
None of it is bewildering or confusing unless one tries to force a Torah-observance-for-those-in-Christ template into the Law given to Israel at Sinai. If one tries to do that, one must build some rather elaborate Scriptural contraptions . . .

The commands have to be rightfully divided. Some Paul explained the Holy Spirit replaced for us. Some require something that is no more, like earthly priests for Christ is our priest or a temple that is no longer here.

Some must always be done, and those few are specified by God usually by the words "for all generations".

Dividing the law in this way is not picking and choosing, it is following God in a way that a study of all scripture tells us. The law is not given as one only unit.

All this is beside the point, for we are told to celebrate the feasts "for all generations". That is plain enough.

As an example: It is given as law for all males to have the foreskin cut in eight days old males. By studying all scripture we learn why that was made law, why it is no longer required, and what of the requirements of this law is still something we must do.

Please provide us with the Scripture that tells you that the law can be divided. I can supply at least three Scriptures that say that if you disobey even one point in the Law, you disobey it all, supporting the concept that the Law is one comprehensive unit:

15 However, if you do not obey the Lord your God and do not carefully follow all his commands and decrees I am giving you today, all these curses will come on you and overtake you:
16 You will be cursed in the city and cursed in the country.
17 Your basket and your kneading trough will be cursed.
18 The fruit of your womb will be cursed, and the crops of your land, and the calves of your herds and the lambs of your flocks.
19 You will be cursed when you come in and cursed when you go out.
20 The Lord will send on you curses,confusion and rebuke in everything you put your hand to, until you are destroyed and come to sudden ruin because of the evil you have done in forsaking him. (from Deut. 28)
10 For all who rely on the works of the law are under a curse, as it is written: “Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law.” (from Gal. 3)

10 For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it. (from James 2)



-JGIG
 

Blik

Senior Member
Dec 6, 2016
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The Lord tells us and tells us about the law and STILL people pick out one part of the explanation parading it in front of everyone telling them look this is the full entire explanation. The law is a curse, the law is a blessing, the law guides us, the law is our death, and on and on.

I think there are hard hearts that have told the Holy Spirit NO to all teachings.