Are we in the end times ?

[LetGodBeTrue]

You mean ...The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and terrible day of the Lord come. ...
happened in 70 AD from the fires burning and the smoke just darkened the day from the perspective of those local people on the ground? Yeah, maybe but I think its really a cosmic event because of Rev 8.

What is the TIMING of the events of the Book of Revelation? John was shown those things which were to SHORTLY take place; the time was NEAR (Rev. 1:1, 3: 22:6, 10). Revelation 8 falls within THAT time frame. The vision John was shown was to, in his day, SOON take place.

Furthermore, Revelation is a book of symbolism and numerous metaphors. As students of God's Word, we MUST understand the Hebrew OT, prophetic mind. When we bring our western thinking concerning terms and descriptions, we often mistranslate. Revelation 8 is not a cosmic event literally--the meaning is being presented in cosmic METAPHORS. The timing is clear. The entire Book of Revelation deals with the events leading up to and including the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple in A.D. 70. Please study OT prophetic symbolism.

 

[LetGodBeTrue]

Really. If you think this current world is the best it can be under Jesus' rule, well, you don't have very high asperations for our savior's abilities.

His KINGDOM is not, never has been, nor ever will be OF THIS WORLD. Did He not Himself say that? The Jews knew of TWO ages. The one they were then living in in that first-century time and the one Jesus said was THEN about to come (Matthew 12). This current world is NOT the kingdom. Even Abraham, when he was still living in the promised land, considered himself a "stranger longed for a "better country," a "heavenly city whose builder and maker is God" (Heb. 11). Abraham did NOT expect the physical land of Israel to be the Kingdom. Why do we long for him that which he himself did not long?

 

[LetGodBeTrue]

In Daniel 9:27 the Messiah CONFIRMED the Old Covenant - "He shall confirm a covenant with many", and at the last supper He made the new covenant: "For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins." (Matt. 26:28). All the animal sacrifice was meant to COVER the sin, only His blood washes away the sin. The old Levitical system was legally ended on the cross, A.D. 70 was the nail in the coffin that officially, physically and historically ended the system. This all has fallen into the 70 week prophecy. I had a long and detailed discussion on that in my first thread on this forum to demonstrate that Jesus, not Antichrist, fulfilled those 70 weeks.

Jesus confirmed the New Covenant.

 

[LetGodBeTrue]

Yes we're definitely at the end times. Unlike any other times in history, for the first time we have the capability to blow up the whole earth with nukes, and also the capability to tamper with human DNA; from the perspective of bible prophecies, for the first time Israel was reborn in the Holy Land, and many Jews come to Jesus. This is not another "hard times create strong men" cycle. This is the end.

There's an interesting ancient rabbonic phylosophy regarding to the end of the world, that all physical beings of the global population is like a bucket, and the spiritual beings are like water slowly poured into that bucket to fill it up. As the global population increases, the bucket grows bigger, and more water is pour into it. Even at times of war, famine, plague and natural disasters like the Black Plague when there were massive casualties, there was still a net increase of global population, so it was still able to contain the water; but when there's a significant net DECREASE of global population, then the water will overflow, you'll see all those fallen angels being released as it is described in Revelation, then the end will come.

Where does the Scripture even suggest that the earth will be "blown up"?
OT Israel was NOT reborn in 1948. Modern Israel is NOT OT Israel. That physical nation was destroy and the "power of the holy people" was "completely shattered." Jesus judged that nation in A.D. 70 and warned them that He would do so in Matthew 23. There is NO end of the world. The Bible speak of the "time of the end" and not the "end of time." The time of the end was the ending of the Old Covenant economy and the full expression of the new. Even in the Apostles' day the OLD was growing old, becoming obsolete, and ready to pass away" (Heb. 8).

2 Peter 3 does NOT speak of the destruction of the world but the destruction of Judaism, the Old Covenant, the Mosaic Law, etc. in A.D. 70! Peter taught nothing about the burning up of the earth but rather of the "burning up" of the STOICHEIA--the things of the OLD. They were burned up in the FERVENT fires set by the Romans in the Jewish Wars. The earth endures forever.

 

[LetGodBeTrue]

Yes, some of these books I have present that view. They haven't convinced me yet. But I am still reading.

Getting the timing of the Book of Revelation correct is essential. John was shown the things which were to SHORTLY take place; the time was NEAR (Rev. 1:1, 3; 22:6, 10). The entire book deals with the events leading up to and including the destruction of the Temple and the city in A.D. 70.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

First time i heard something like that was about mid 1950s . Been a long time ago cant remember where i heard it... again not a date but claiming the 2000 would be the day of rest . their for rapture would be happening just before the "day of rest "

First, approximately 2000 year started to count from the baptizing of Jesus when he was 30, not from His birth, so at least give it the benefit of the doubt till 2030; second, toray's Gregorian calendar is not as accurate as you think, and it's definitely not synchronized with God's calendar; third, the definition of a "year" varies in the bible, it could be a 365-day solar year, a 354-day lunar year (plus additional leap month), a 360-day prophetic year (plus one addition month every 6th and 40th year) or even 364-day Qumran year according to the Dead Sea Scrolls; and fourth, the currently available Jewish calendar is also unreliable, so don't count on that either.

 

[LetGodBeTrue]

I think you may have a point here, sort of. I've always wondered about Hebrews 8:13. AD 70 could be the point at which it finally disappeared.

There's no question that the old covenant ended when Christ died and rose from the dead. With the introduction of the new, the old ended but not everyone accepted it. It wouldn't totally disappear until AD 70.

Christ died and rose from the dead (out of Hades), but as the Great High Priest, He had to finish His priestly duties. When He ascended, He entered the Most Holy Place in the heavenly Temple and sprinkled His sacrificial blood on the heavenly altar. Like the earthly high priest, he also had to exit the Most Holy Place as proof of the fulfillment of the sacrifice and its acceptance by God. Christ did that in A.D. 70 when He exited the Holy of Holies and came to judge those Old Covenant apostate Jews for their guilt in the shedding of "all the righteous blood" on the earth (Mat. 23). That was the Great Tribulation and the Judgment.

It was then that full salvation came. Paul taught this when He told the Romans of his day to awake from THEIR sleep; the night was far spent and the day was at hand. He told them: "NOW is your SALVATION nearer than when you first believed" (Rom. 13). They were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise; their salvation was assured but it was not yet complete. Jesus told His disciples that when THEY saw the things He had warned them about begin to take place, THEY were to look up because THEN their SALVATION would draw near. Again, they also were already "saved" in the sense of full assurance. Full salvation involved the destruction of Sheol/Hades and the RESURRECTION of the righteous and unrighteous. The former were given all aspects of eternal life and the latter were judged and perished. THAT was the resurrection hope of Israel for which Paul had been imprisoned. It is not the hope of the Church and it does not involve physical bodies coming up out of their graves.

In A.D. 70, with the destruction of the Temple and the city, the Old Covenant of death and relegation to Sheol of all who died was completely done away with and the New Covenant of life and restoration to God was fully enacted. From that point, all saints die and go immediately into the presence of God. There is no more Hades; no more waiting. The Groom has come for His Bride and they are forever together.

 

[LetGodBeTrue]

Another new member with bizarre ideas.

What "bizarre ideas"?

 

[LetGodBeTrue]

This interpretation would not fit all of the scriptures on the Last Days. Those texts cover more than just the end of Judaism.
And what do we say about Israel today. Are they now exempt from Last Day destruction prophesies?

That which calls itself "Israel" today has no real connection to OT Israel. God completely destroyed that nation in A.D. 70 (the "power of the holy people" was "completely shattered"). Peter wrote: "The end of ALL things is AT HAND" (1 Peter 4:7). He spoke of the end of the Old Covenant age the things pertaining to it.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

Where does the Scripture even suggest that the earth will be "blown up"?

"Nations were angry, and Your wrath has come, And the time of the dead, that they should be judged, And that You should reward Your servants the prophets and the saints, And those who fear Your name, small and great, and should destroy those who destroy the earth." - Rev. 11:18

OT Israel was NOT reborn in 1948. Modern Israel is NOT OT Israel. That physical nation was destroy and the "power of the holy people" was "completely shattered." Jesus judged that nation in A.D. 70 and warned them that He would do so in Matthew 23. There is NO end of the world. The Bible speak of the "time of the end" and not the "end of time." The time of the end was the ending of the Old Covenant economy and the full expression of the new. Even in the Apostles' day the OLD was growing old, becoming obsolete, and ready to pass away" (Heb. 8).

Modern Israel serves a holy purpose, it gathers all the Jews scattered around the world to the Holy Land, the Land of Canaan. Also, the victory of the Yom Kippur war in 1967 gave all previously closeted Jewish Christians a great sense of pride and security to openly brandish their Jewish inheritage while professing their faith in Yeshua, and that brought more Jews to Yeshua, that had never happened in history.

 

[Beckie]

Christ died and rose from the dead (out of Hades), but as the Great High Priest, He had to finish His priestly duties. When He ascended, He entered the Most Holy Place in the heavenly Temple and sprinkled His sacrificial blood on the heavenly altar. Like the earthly high priest, he also had to exit the Most Holy Place as proof of the fulfillment of the sacrifice and its acceptance by God. Christ did that in A.D. 70 when He exited the Holy of Holies and came to judge those Old Covenant apostate Jews for their guilt in the shedding of "all the righteous blood" on the earth (Mat. 23). That was the Great Tribulation and the Judgment.

It was then that full salvation came. Paul taught this when He told the Romans of his day to awake from THEIR sleep; the night was far spent and the day was at hand. He told them: "NOW is your SALVATION nearer than when you first believed" (Rom. 13). They were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise; their salvation was assured but it was not yet complete. Jesus told His disciples that when THEY saw the things He had warned them about begin to take place, THEY were to look up because THEN their SALVATION would draw near. Again, they also were already "saved" in the sense of full assurance. Full salvation involved the destruction of Sheol/Hades and the RESURRECTION of the righteous and unrighteous. The former were given all aspects of eternal life and the latter were judged and perished. THAT was the resurrection hope of Israel for which Paul had been imprisoned. It is not the hope of the Church and it does not involve physical bodies coming up out of their graves.

In A.D. 70, with the destruction of the Temple and the city, the Old Covenant of death and relegation to Sheol of all who died was completely done away with and the New Covenant of life and restoration to God was fully enacted. From that point, all saints die and go immediately into the presence of God. There is no more Hades; no more waiting. The Groom has come for His Bride and they are forever together.

Kinda fits right in the Words of Jesus Mat_24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

Mat_24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

This is so frustrating that everybody's quoting this line while ignoring the fig tree parable.

 

[ewq1938]

Christ died and rose from the dead (out of Hades), but as the Great High Priest, He had to finish His priestly duties. When He ascended, He entered the Most Holy Place in the heavenly Temple and sprinkled His sacrificial blood on the heavenly altar. Like the earthly high priest, he also had to exit the Most Holy Place as proof of the fulfillment of the sacrifice and its acceptance by God. Christ did that in A.D. 70 when He exited the Holy of Holies and came to judge those Old Covenant apostate Jews for their guilt in the shedding of "all the righteous blood" on the earth (Mat. 23). That was the Great Tribulation and the Judgment.

It was then that full salvation came. Paul taught this when He told the Romans of his day to awake from THEIR sleep; the night was far spent and the day was at hand. He told them: "NOW is your SALVATION nearer than when you first believed" (Rom. 13). They were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise; their salvation was assured but it was not yet complete. Jesus told His disciples that when THEY saw the things He had warned them about begin to take place, THEY were to look up because THEN their SALVATION would draw near. Again, they also were already "saved" in the sense of full assurance. Full salvation involved the destruction of Sheol/Hades and the RESURRECTION of the righteous and unrighteous. The former were given all aspects of eternal life and the latter were judged and perished. THAT was the resurrection hope of Israel for which Paul had been imprisoned. It is not the hope of the Church and it does not involve physical bodies coming up out of their graves.

In A.D. 70, with the destruction of the Temple and the city, the Old Covenant of death and relegation to Sheol of all who died was completely done away with and the New Covenant of life and restoration to God was fully enacted. From that point, all saints die and go immediately into the presence of God. There is no more Hades; no more waiting. The Groom has come for His Bride and they are forever together.

The heresy of full preterism.

 

[Beckie]

This is so frustrating that everybody's quoting this line while ignoring the fig tree parable.

Kinda fits right in the Words of Jesus Mat_24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

Mar 13:28 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When her branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is near:
Mar 13:29 So ye in like manner, when ye shall see these things come to pass, know that it is nigh, even at the doors.
Mar 13:30 Verily I say unto you, that this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done.
Mar 13:31 Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.


Jesus still said Mar 13:30 Verily I say unto you, that this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

Jesus still said Mar 13:30 Verily I say unto you, that this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done.

"When her branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves". Define that.

 

[Beckie]

"When her branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves". Define that.

you brought the challenge you tell me

 

[Dino246]

This is so frustrating that everybody's quoting this line while ignoring the fig tree parable.

Quoting clear plain words of Jesus while "ignoring" a parable... maybe because the parable says parabolically what the clear statement says clearly.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

you brought the challenge you tell me

Could be the Zionism Movement or the Messianic Movement - or both. Honestly I'm no expert on that. Bottom line is, this is a global revival of the Jewish people.

 

[Amanuensis]

What is the TIMING of the events of the Book of Revelation? John was shown those things which were to SHORTLY take place; the time was NEAR (Rev. 1:1, 3: 22:6, 10). Revelation 8 falls within THAT time frame. The vision John was shown was to, in his day, SOON take place.

Furthermore, Revelation is a book of symbolism and numerous metaphors. As students of God's Word, we MUST understand the Hebrew OT, prophetic mind. When we bring our western thinking concerning terms and descriptions, we often mistranslate. Revelation 8 is not a cosmic event literally--the meaning is being presented in cosmic METAPHORS. The timing is clear. The entire Book of Revelation deals with the events leading up to and including the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple in A.D. 70. Please study OT prophetic symbolism.

The reason I believe that many of these prophesies are literal is because of the way OT prophesies have been fulfilled in the past.
I am ok with calling "soon" the last 2000 years of man's history. A final book for the church to read as they evangelize the world for 2000 years knowing that the end is near is an accurate description of "soon" for me. No one can prove it had to happen in the first century in order to be "soon" It is not a strong argument in the context of the history of mankind. It is not a strong argument as to eschatological theology since it is just been a few days in the eternal scope of things. It is not a strong argument because it suggests that one can arbitrarily tell God what is soon and what isn't from their own finite and ignorant frame of reference.

The reference to a star in the oracle of Balaam turned out to be a real star. The prophesy of Daniel that we will shine as the stars and be bright as the firmament will turn out to be exactly that when we are transfigured with the glory manifest in reality and visibly.

As we study the OT prophesies that have been fulfilled such as the ones about Jesus crucifixion we learn that many were literal such as casting lots for his clothes and many others and those Rabbis that had developed elaborate allegories to explain them were dead wrong.

So yes, do study OT prophesies and how they were fulfilled but do not make the mistake of the unspiritual Rabbis and explain them away to fit a presupposition that turns out wrong.

Instead we should observe the way way they have been fulfilled in the past as your guide to how they will be fulfilled in the future.

For example I do expect a bunch of meteorites to hit the earth and cause world wide cataclysmic damage. The stars falling to the earth like figs falling from a tree is going to happen literally. They are not stars in the modern classification but in the ancient classification which saw meteorites as falling stars. Mark my words. It is coming soon.

I know that there are very good scholars that I respect that like to apply it to the 2st century but I have not been persuaded by their reasoning. It seems so arbitrary and unprovable. Sometimes it has so very little basis to support these interpretations and so I have nothing to stand on. I feel safer taking the literal approach except when it is obvious or explained by someone in the text how to interpret it. I know that the lampstand are not lampstand but churches because Jesus tells us that. But when it says stars fall to the earth like unripen figs I think it will really be meteorites that kill people. Even so, Come Lord Jesus.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

Quoting clear plain words of Jesus while "ignoring" a parable... maybe because the parable says parabolically what the clear statement says clearly.

This parable is of paramount importance regarding the end times, it was recorded in almost identical words in all three synoptic gospels. If you don't understand this parable, you're not gonna truly understand that seemingly "clear" statement, because "these things" are directly referring to the "budding" of the fig tree.