Are we under law and grace or just under grace which is it

starfield · Jun 7, 2013

Gal.2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified

What are "works of the law"? Any rule, command, or law that a person observes in an attempt to be accepted in right standing with God is a "work of the law."
In other words, works of the Law are a righteousness produced by one's self, belonging to one's self, offered to God as a means of meeting God's standard for acceptance.

Works of the Law have always been man's attempt to be accepted by God. Paul says, "[Let me] be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ--the righteousness that comes from God and is by faith" Php 3:9

It takes a radical revelation of the Gospel of grace to abandon faith in the works of the Law. God's standard of righteousness is the righteousness of God (grace) alone.

In contrast to the works of the Law, there is the "work of faith," . These may be the same actions that others do as works of the Law, but the motivation is different. Works of faith are the fruit of relationship with God whereas works of the Law are done to try to obtain relationship with God .

By definition, the word grace means unmerited, unearned, undeserved favor. Therefore, the good news is, grace has nothing to do with you. Grace existed before you ever came to be. Another way of saying it is, grace is God’s part. Faith is defined as being a positive response to what God has already provided by grace. In other words, faith is your positive response to God’s grace, or faith only appropriates what God has already provided for you. Therefore, faith is your part.
Grace and faith work together, and they must be in balance.
Of course, as you alluded to in the OP, there are natural laws.....that might be for another thread.

Amen!

homwardbound · Jun 7, 2013

matt7777777 said:

Bein not under law thus we throuigh Christ do we not obey law and agree with it. We know that by this we are not God and have given up Godhood and thus see why there is laws not to speed and why there are red and green lights. Because we are now considerate, compassionate and loving to our neighbors thinking ahead of time is what I am thinking aobut in doing will it harm my neighbor harm them, because in essence that would be the same as harming God the creator of all, so I choose by god's grace to say no to harming my neighbor, because I do not want to be harmed, knowing that God throguh his Son gave me righteousness, his to partake in and therefore I no longer need any law to school master me, and just follow God's leading trusting god along the way and whenever I amke a mistake or a thousand, I apologize first to my neighbor and then thank God for already taking that sin away back at the cross
Thnaks for you insight, hope waht I have learned also fits for you somewhere somehow in your walk

homwardbound · Jun 7, 2013

john832 said:

isn't his commandment in a nutshell LOVE God with all and our neighbor as self, or better yet as God loves us?
So depending on how much I see God loving me would be a direct action to my neighbor yes? So if
I do not see God loving me 100% whether I ahve sinned or might sin, then how will I treat my neighbor? Would there be a direct connection.
So if I see God just love me period, how will I then treat my neighbor, even if they do not see the way I see or even if they disagree with me, or even if they sin against me?

homwardbound · Jun 7, 2013

Widdekind said:

Grace = sufficient (literally "strength enough") to sustain Paul on his missions throughout the Roman empire

God Charitably strengthens Christians

But also, Christians are required to keep Jesus' commandments, "Christians are under Grace & Laws-of-NT = Commandments of Christ". Note that "commandment" (entole) = "order", i.e. "follow Jesus' orders" (if you accept Jesus as Lord = order-giver).
[TABLE="width: 100%"]
[TR]
[TD="class: vRefa"]

Jhn 14:15
[/TD]
[TD="class: vDispa"]If [SUP]1437[/SUP] ye love [SUP]25[/SUP] me [SUP]3165[/SUP], keep [SUP]5083[/SUP] my [SUP]1699[/SUP]commandments [SUP]1785[/SUP].
[/TD]
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[TR]
[TD="class: vRefb, bgcolor: #F5F5F5"]

Jhn 14:21
[/TD]
[TD="class: vDispb, bgcolor: #F5F5F5"]He that hath [SUP]2192[/SUP] my [SUP]3450[/SUP] commandments [SUP]1785[/SUP], and[SUP]2532[/SUP] keepeth [SUP]5083[/SUP] them [SUP]846[/SUP], he [SUP]1565[/SUP] it is [SUP]2076[/SUP] that loveth [SUP]25[/SUP] me [SUP]3165[/SUP]: and [SUP]1161[/SUP] he that loveth [SUP]25[/SUP] me [SUP]3165[/SUP]shall be loved [SUP]25[/SUP] of [SUP]5259[/SUP] my [SUP]3450[/SUP] Father [SUP]3962[/SUP], and [SUP]2532[/SUP] I[SUP]1473[/SUP] will love [SUP]25[/SUP] him [SUP]846[/SUP], and [SUP]2532[/SUP] will manifest [SUP]1718[/SUP]myself [SUP]1683[/SUP] to him [SUP]846[/SUP].
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: vRefa"]

Jhn 15:10
[/TD]
[TD="class: vDispa"]If [SUP]1437[/SUP] ye keep [SUP]5083[/SUP] my [SUP]3450[/SUP] commandments [SUP]1785[/SUP], ye shall abide [SUP]3306[/SUP] in [SUP]1722[/SUP] my [SUP]3450[/SUP] love [SUP]26[/SUP]; even as [SUP]2531[/SUP] I[SUP]1473[/SUP] have kept [SUP]5083[/SUP] my [SUP]3450[/SUP] Father's [SUP]3962[/SUP]commandments [SUP]1785[/SUP], and [SUP]2532[/SUP] abide [SUP]3306[/SUP] in [SUP]1722[/SUP] his [SUP]846[/SUP]love [SUP]26[/SUP].
[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

Is not the commandment God's type of love best described in 1 cor 13:4-13. and I know no flesh can do this type of love as many are taught to try and just ask for forgiveness from God and God will give you more. Hmm!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Houston we ahve a problem here, What could it be? flesh maybe in the way over the new born agaqin Spirit from God by the resurrection at the cross, given to each and every beleiver as a gift from God, no work of our own done, Hmmm!!!!!!!!!!!!

Grandpa · Jun 7, 2013

john832 said:

I have heard a few people say that we are still under the Law but Christ has eliminated the penalty of breaking it.

How does that exactly work? How are we still under Law but not under the penalty of it?

homwardbound · Jun 7, 2013

RedTent said:

The law is something profound that only God fully understands. The heavens and our ocean operates by God's law. When we steal something from someone we are pushing against God's law.

Grace is something we, as Christians need to understand. A major characteristic of God is love. Another is that God is the creator of all things, God even created our minds. We cannot be the ruler, the truth is that God is. There are many things he made us able to do for ourselves, but we are going to die. Everyone does. God created us to live on with Him, but we have no control of that at all. God cannot live with sin, we have knowledge of sin so we cannot live in eternity. God gave us a way out of that, it is through Christ. We have forgiveness, and that forgiveness is grace. So you can bake an apple pie or repair a car, but it is impossible to live eternally without grace. As Christians we are able to have forgiveness and grace. Christians are under grace. Part of that grace is the HS, is the knowledge of God. There are many people who can hear people tell them the gospel, but their minds cannot really take it in because they are dead to that part of understanding. When they receive this understanding, grace is made available to them.

Now, we have grace but law still has to fit in. We are given the HS, and that leads us to living within the law. It is through the law that we have the good things of life. God cannot give grace to a liar. He can give grace to someone who told a lie and is forgiven, but he cannot give grace to someone who can be identified as a liar. We can put up a barrier between us and God through sin, and we can come closer to God through obedience.

I could give you lots of scripture to back up my statements, but understanding grace, law, and obedience needs to be done with many scriptures. I am giving God principles from much study, you need to study and see if what you read fits with these principles. I may not speak for God, I may only report what God says.

may be this in short Sister
[h=3]Romans 3:31[/h]New International Version (NIV)

[SUP]31 [/SUP]Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law.

Upholding the Law trusting God to do his Love through us in place of us being under the letter of the Law that kills. Is that put well, This is what I got out of what you said and I thank God for you

homwardbound · Jun 7, 2013

jimmydiggs said:

seeing it from this angle, saved by Faith and then did as God asked through trusting God, believing God that whatever God says we beleive and do in response to this amazing Merciful God
So we do this
Micah 6:8
He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy and to walk humbly with your God.

homwardbound · Jun 7, 2013

jimmydiggs said:

you are correct, it is just true and Holy, the problem being when it flowed through flesh and blood, flesh and blood being weak could not hold up
Kind of like ten apples in a tub of water, no one can hold all ten apples under the water att he same time with just their hands it is impossible yes? So tihs is why Christ came to do this for us and did it, and forus to respond to this in complete thankfulness, then by God the Father raising us to new life at the resurrection the same as hh already did for his Son yes?

homwardbound · Jun 7, 2013

4enlightment said:

If you are in a relationship with someone and are having problems, you seek counseling to help improve your relationship. The counselor give you some laws to follow to help you in your relationship. In the beginning of the laws you are a slave, but as time goes by you should understand that the laws aren't laws, but they are for you to recondition yourself from an hostile relationship to a more suitable relationship. In order to learned from the laws you is that you must put more emphasis in understanding the laws. The Jews just pattern themselves to followed the laws without understanding the purpose of laws.

Matthew 23:23“Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices—mint, dill and cumin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law—justice,mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former.

Matthew 13:15For this people’s heart has become calloused; they hardly hear with their ears, and they have closed their eyes. Otherwise they might see with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their hearts and turn, and I would heal them.’

These are what the laws of the prophets true meanings, and which Jesus has summed them all up into two meanings.

Matthew 22
37 Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ 38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”

Thank you and a little bit more to fit
Matthew 9:13But go and learn what this means: ‘I desire mercy, not sacrifice.’ For I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners.”

homwardbound · Jun 7, 2013

Cobus said:

this all is done by and through the finished work of Christ at the cross this is waht God the Father reveals to his children what his son did for us, and the full Gospel of the cross includes the resurrection where we all that god shows this to are born again and then God lives through us not just in us, doing the work that you and I could never do.
Tell me does Oil and water mix ever? Can it appear to mix by stirring it up? Yet when it settles down it seprerates yes?
So it is the same with Law and Grace it does not mix and can't ever mix, just as oil and water can't.
Just as new wine can't stay in an old wine skin, the bag bursts and the new wine is wasted.
Just as is with so many trying to fit the new life in with the old Flesh self. When one needs the born again life that God has provided through the cross at the resurrection of His Son Jesus Christ for all that will believe God then recieve the free gift and are thankfull, with praises and thankgsgiving, in response loving God because God first loved us, then our neighbor as Christ loved us via the cross, where he took away our disease sin that caused death, by dieiing in our stead, so that once we see tihs then we get boprn again by the resurrection
Faith in God's finished work through Christ saves and we thus respond doing what is right by the Grace of God.
Does works of God follow Faith (trust) in God?
Or does works create Faith (belief, trust) in God
And since Christ is perfect and walked the earth perfect, there really was no need for him to go to a cross was there?
So since we both know this, he then went for you, me and all that will put their trust in him yes?
Just some food for thought as come to see the truth hidden in Christ at the cross

homwardbound · Jun 7, 2013

Cobus said:

If I ever became exactly like Christ in and of me, then I would not need God, if I ever considered myself to have attained as Paul so clearly points out
[h=3]2 Corinthians 12:7[/h]New International Version (NIV)

[SUP]7 [/SUP]or because of these surpassingly great revelations. Therefore, in order to keep me from becoming conceited, I was given a thorn in my flesh, a messenger of Satan, to torment me.

So every time I think I have attained look out here comes a messenger to buffet me if I really do belong to Christ, if not then I am self righteous and am stumbling over the stumbling stone.
I will glory in my iniquities because by this I need Christ and Father always and forever, remaining humble and glorifying God thanking God for this amazing salvation provided to all that will beleive and then see.

Skinski7 · Jun 7, 2013

[TABLE="width: 500"]
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[TD]LAW
Do not murder!
Obey this and no act of murder will occur.[/TD]
[TD]GRACE
Love your neighbour!
Obey this and no act of murder will occur.[/TD]
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[/TABLE]

Jesus taught this about the law...

1. He did not come to destroy the law but to fulfill it (Mat 5:17).
2. Our righteousness must exceed that of the scribes and Pharisees (Mat 5:20).

Paul taught this about love and how it relates to the law.

1. Love fulfills the law (Gal 5:14).
2. Love does not work ill and thus fulfills the law. (Rom 13:10).

Jesus taught that righteousness is internal as opposed to merely external.

1. Anger within is equivalent an act of murder without (Mat 5:21-22).
2. Lust within is equivalent to an act of adultery without (Mat 5:27-28).
3. Genuine love is not conditioned on what one received in return (Mat 5:44).

Thus when Jesus said, "Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect" (Mat 5:48) it is clearly in the context of having a loving heart within which by nature produces good conduct outwardly.

Jesus observed that the Pharisees lacked this inward purity and thus remained defiled.

Mat 23:25 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess.
Mat 23:26 Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also.
Mat 23:27 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness.
Mat 23:28 Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity.

Love fulfills the law (Gal 5:14) whereby it does not produce ill (Rom 13:10).

Faith works by love (Gal 5:6) which stands in opposition to an outward adherence to the law.

Gal 5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.
Gal 5:5 For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.
Gal 5:6 For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.

Obeying outward rules and regulations apart from a faith that works by love is to fall from grace. Righteousness is by faith (Gal 5:5) a faith that works by love (Gal 5:6).

It is the Spirit of life in Jesus Christ which sets us free from the law of sin and death (Rom 8:2) by which the righteousness of the law is fulfilled in us who walk after the Spirit (Rom 8:2). The fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, goodness and self control (Gal 5:22-23) because love works no ill (Rom 13:10). This is why faith does not void the law but rather establishes it (Rom 3:31).

It is by a faith that works by love (Gal 5:6) that we access the grace of God (Rom 5:2) which teaches us to deny ungodliness and worldly lusts to live soberly uprightly and godly in the present age (Tit 2:11-12) by which the salvation of our souls is wrought in us (Heb 5:9) by the power of God (Col 2:12).

Grace abounded whilst sin abounded (Rom 5:20) yet does this mean we are to continue in sin that grace abound even more (Rom 6:1)?

NO!

Grace reigns through righteousness unto eternal life (Rom 5:21), grace does not reign through sin unto death.

We receive grace for obedience to the faith (Rom 1:5) that we may walk in it yielding our members to righteousness as opposed to yielding our members to sin (Rom 6:13-18) the fruit of which produces holiness (Rom 6:22) the end of which is eternal life. Thus the gift of God to all men is eternal life THROUGH Jesus Christ (Rom 6:23) in whom we abide (Joh 15:4-5) for we keep his commandments (Joh 14:21) whereby the love of God is perfected in us so that we can walk as he walked (1Joh 2:5-6).

So are we under the law and grace or just under grace?

If we are led of the Spirit we are not under the law (Gal 5:18) because LOVE FULFILLS THE LAW (Gal 5:6) and FAITH WORKS BY LOVE (Gal 5:6) thus when faith has come we are not under the schoolmaster of the law (Gal 3:25) for the law has been established in the heart (Rom 3:31) by which we are changed into the very image of Jesus Christ by His very Spirit (2Cor 3:18).

Where is the above preached today? What happened purity of heart being manifest in those who abide in the Spirit of life in Jesus Christ?

2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
2Pe 3:11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
2Pe 3:12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
2Pe 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
2Pe 3:14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.
2Pe 3:15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
2Pe 3:16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
2Pe 3:17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.
2Pe 3:18 But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.

RedTent · Jun 7, 2013

Everyone here expresses and knows well about grace, they have faith although they forget faith results in works, they know what the HS does. They know Christ paid for our sin, although I don't think they know that we have to live on this earth with the results of our sin. If you steal and repent, God forgives but you still have to go to jail! I think there is a pitiful, a very sad lack of understanding about the blessings of working for the Lord.

We are human, so it is in human things we can work. We can wash our hands when we first get out of bed, and do it as God talks of washing. Sure, that is often in the OT, the OT is scripture, too. Christ wiped out the need for the temple, for animal blood, Christ made you priests, but Christ did not wipe out washing hands as a symbol. We can check on the family in our church family who is out of work, and think of him as family. Just because we are told and can understand all about faith, love, grace, forgiveness does not mean that we can not know about works as well.

I am studying the life of people who are obedient as much as they can be. That is seldom found in the Christian community, I had to go into the Mormon and Jewish communities to find it. The blessings of works are huge, even without the knowledge of Christ.

I have read in this very post about the works that the Jews do, criticizing them for their works. We know the seriousness of them not recognizing their Messiah, but we are not understanding the blessings of their devotion to God. In the 10th and 11th century of our world, it was the works of the Jews showing God to the world that kept the knowledge of a God ruling our world before man, more than the Catholic Church did.

God tells us to look for fruits. Our understanding of Christ's forgiveness, our receiving the HS does have fruits, but we are denying ourselves many blessings because we don't take the next step in our understanding. We need to understand obedience.

Widdekind · Jun 7, 2013

The Gospel of John records Jesus seemingly saying, that Jesus faithfully Recited to the Apostles on earth, the "Orders" he received from God in heaven; and that "The Order" he received, was that Christians "love one another" (John 13,15).

[TABLE="width: 100%"]
[TR]
[TD="class: vRefb, bgcolor: #F5F5F5"]

Jhn 12:49[/TD]
[TD="class: vDispb, bgcolor: #F5F5F5"]For [SUP]3754[/SUP] I [SUP]1473[/SUP] have [SUP]2980[/SUP] not [SUP]3756[/SUP] spoken [SUP]2980[/SUP] of [SUP]1537[/SUP]myself [SUP]1683[/SUP]; but [SUP]235[/SUP] the Father [SUP]3962[/SUP] which sent [SUP]3992[/SUP] me[SUP]3165[/SUP], he [SUP]846[/SUP] gave [SUP]1325[/SUP] me [SUP]3427[/SUP] a commandment[SUP]1785[/SUP], what[SUP]5101[/SUP] I should say [SUP]2036[/SUP] , and [SUP]2532[/SUP] what [SUP]5101[/SUP] I should speak[SUP]2980[/SUP] .[/TD]
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[TD="class: vRefa"]

Jhn 12:50[/TD]
[TD="class: vDispa"]And [SUP]2532[/SUP] I know [SUP]1492[/SUP] that [SUP]3754[/SUP] his [SUP]846[/SUP] commandment[SUP]1785[/SUP]is [SUP]2076[/SUP] life [SUP]2222[/SUP] everlasting [SUP]166[/SUP]: whatsoever [SUP]3739[/SUP] I [SUP]1473[/SUP]speak [SUP]2980[/SUP] therefore [SUP]3767[/SUP], even as [SUP]2531[/SUP] the Father [SUP]3962[/SUP]said [SUP]2046[/SUP] unto me [SUP]3427[/SUP], so [SUP]3779[/SUP] I speak [SUP]2980[/SUP] .[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: vRefb, bgcolor: #F5F5F5"]

Jhn 13:34[/TD]
[TD="class: vDispb, bgcolor: #F5F5F5"]A new [SUP]2537[/SUP] commandment[SUP]1785[/SUP] I give [SUP]1325[/SUP] unto you [SUP]5213[/SUP], That [SUP]2443[/SUP] ye love [SUP]25[/SUP] one another [SUP]240[/SUP]; as [SUP]2531[/SUP] I have loved[SUP]25[/SUP] you [SUP]5209[/SUP], that [SUP]2443[/SUP] ye [SUP]5210[/SUP] also [SUP]2532[/SUP] love [SUP]25[/SUP] one another [SUP]240[/SUP].[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: vRefa"]

Jhn 14:15[/TD]
[TD="class: vDispa"]If [SUP]1437[/SUP] ye love [SUP]25[/SUP] me [SUP]3165[/SUP], keep [SUP]5083[/SUP] my [SUP]1699[/SUP]commandments[SUP]1785[/SUP].

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Jhn 14:21[/TD]
[TD="class: vDispa"]He that hath [SUP]2192[/SUP] my [SUP]3450[/SUP] commandments[SUP]1785[/SUP], and [SUP]2532[/SUP]keepeth [SUP]5083[/SUP] them [SUP]846[/SUP], he [SUP]1565[/SUP] it is [SUP]2076[/SUP] that loveth [SUP]25[/SUP] me[SUP]3165[/SUP]: and [SUP]1161[/SUP] he that loveth [SUP]25[/SUP] me [SUP]3165[/SUP] shall be loved [SUP]25[/SUP]of [SUP]5259[/SUP] my [SUP]3450[/SUP] Father [SUP]3962[/SUP], and [SUP]2532[/SUP] I [SUP]1473[/SUP] will love [SUP]25[/SUP]him [SUP]846[/SUP], and [SUP]2532[/SUP] will manifest [SUP]1718[/SUP] myself [SUP]1683[/SUP] to him[SUP]846[/SUP].[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: vRefb, bgcolor: #F5F5F5"]

Jhn 15:10[/TD]
[TD="class: vDispb, bgcolor: #F5F5F5"]If [SUP]1437[/SUP] ye keep [SUP]5083[/SUP] my [SUP]3450[/SUP] commandments[SUP]1785[/SUP], ye shall abide [SUP]3306[/SUP] in [SUP]1722[/SUP] my [SUP]3450[/SUP] love [SUP]26[/SUP]; even as [SUP]2531[/SUP] I [SUP]1473[/SUP] have kept [SUP]5083[/SUP] my [SUP]3450[/SUP] Father's [SUP]3962[/SUP] commandments[SUP]1785[/SUP], and[SUP]2532[/SUP] abide [SUP]3306[/SUP] in [SUP]1722[/SUP] his [SUP]846[/SUP] love [SUP]26[/SUP].[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: vRefa"]

Jhn 15:12[/TD]
[TD="class: vDispa"]This [SUP]3778[/SUP] is [SUP]2076[/SUP] my [SUP]1699[/SUP] commandment[SUP]1785[/SUP], That [SUP]2443[/SUP] ye love [SUP]25[/SUP] one another [SUP]240[/SUP], as [SUP]2531[/SUP] I have loved [SUP]25[/SUP] you [SUP]5209[/SUP].[/TD]
[/TR]
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[/TD]
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RedTent · Jun 7, 2013

Right! God is love and so is the law. God created a world for man to live in with joy and abundance, and it is through God's law that He tells us we can have that. Love is the basis of all things.

Cobus · Jun 8, 2013

Homey you ask if water and oil mixes.... YES IT DOES, when you add a little "carrier" like NP9 or if you heat them up enough. GRACE and LAW join 100% when God adds His Spirit!
God said... HEREBY WE KNOW THAT WE ARE IN HIM AND HIM IN US.... IF WE KEEP HIS COMMANDS... You see Homey, God KEEPS HIS OWN COMMANDS IN US WHEN HE IS IN US... That is PERFECTION. And Paul had it.

Hoomey name Paul's sin if you can! You want to make Paul a sinner, then NAME HIS SIN!

RedTent · Jun 8, 2013

Cobus said:

This is a lot of human thinking and words. God in us means that we have the Holy Spirit within us. We always have a choice, we can listen to the HS or we can listen to the flesh that is also within us. To talk of perfection is not to talk of the human, for the human knows good and evil, we have since the beginning. This sound good, lots of poetry sounds good. We are looking for truth.

Paul was a man, not perfection. Paul was given words from God, and God is perfection. We even have to learn something of the man that Paul was, because God's words came through the man.

Grace and Law join because Scripture tells us we are saved through grace, and scripture tells us we are to obey the law. We know both are truth. One does not cancel the other, it takes both. It is up to us to put on the armor of God, to look at these two truths through God's eyes.

HeRoseFromTheDead · Jun 8, 2013

Cobus said:

He doesn't have to. Every man has a corrupted, sinful nature that he has to live with. You say it no longer exists, but you are delusional and in denial to say such a thing. If the sinful old man no longer existed, there would not be so many admonitions to put the old man to death every moment/day so that they can live in Christ.

homwardbound · Jun 8, 2013

RedTent said:

I undersatand what you are saying, yet I see something maybe further, works yes important, but more importantly the works from where do I think need to be discerned so we won't get burned as I know I have been and still not hard hearted over it, just a lot more aware, and can discern much wiser than before. Works Sister are a by-product of God through the believer in God. Noah's works were a by-product from God through Noah by Naoh's beleif in God and the same with all the Saints.
Self works do not produce life, beleif first does in the resurrection and works follow works of Love Gods' type
The above is just some things that I have learned and am still learning
Love your thoughts

homwardbound · Jun 8, 2013

Cobus said:

Wow!!!!! you do amaze me. Paul said that he puts whatever behind hoim and moves on towards the mark
Philippians 3:12[ Pressing Toward the Goal ] Not that I have already attained, or am already perfected; but I press on, that I may lay hold of that for which Christ Jesus has also laid hold of me.
[h=3]2 Corinthians 12:1-21[/h]New King James Version (NKJV)

[h=3]The Vision of Paradise[/h]12 It is doubtless not profitable for me to boast. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord: [SUP]2 [/SUP]I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago—whether in the body I do not know, or whether out of the body I do not know, God knows—such a one was caught up to the third heaven. [SUP]3 [/SUP]And I know such a man—whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows— [SUP]4 [/SUP]how he was caught up into Paradise and heard inexpressible words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter. [SUP]5 [/SUP]Of such a one I will boast; yet of myself I will not boast, except in my infirmities. [SUP]6 [/SUP]For though I might desire to boast, I will not be a fool; for I will speak the truth. But I refrain, lest anyone should think of me above what he sees me to be or hears from me.
[h=3]The Thorn in the Flesh[/h][SUP]7 [/SUP]And lest I should be exalted above measure by the abundance of the revelations, a thorn in the flesh was given to me, a messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I be exalted above measure. [SUP]8 [/SUP]Concerning this thing I pleaded with the Lord three times that it might depart from me. [SUP]9 [/SUP]And He said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for My strength is made perfect in weakness.” Therefore most gladly I will rather boast in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me. [SUP]10 [/SUP]Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in needs, in persecutions, in distresses, for Christ’s sake. For when I am weak, then I am strong.
[h=3][/h]I glory in my infirmities and the power of the cross reasts upon Paul ,me and all those the put their trust in God via the cross where we are made dead to sin by the death, and alive to God by the resurrection, serving God in the Spirit of God. The only one perfect is God and the only way to be on God living is through Christ back at the cross.
We are not saved by works we are saved first and thus works are done through us by God's resurrecting us in God's Spirit

Are we under law and grace or just under grace which is it

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