Are we under law and grace or just under grace which is it

homwardbound · Jun 8, 2013

Yes one can alter natural, and get it to mix which apoparently yuo attempt to do. Yet by nature oil and water does not mix.This is what it seems you are missing out on, trying to defy nature, only yuo know the truth here and your motive here, and I do not need to know it, for God does and if God sees fit God will permit you to see the truth but for some reason since youhaven't recieved the Holy Ghost by God yet, there must ne a reason, maybe there is error in your truth somewhere that is keeping you from the reception of this new life you seem to be craving for and have not gotten yet.
Just some food for thought for yuor salvation found in Christ and through Christ alone

RedTent · Jun 8, 2013

homwardbound said:

Works must be a by-product of God. It is so hard to learn and accept. I have chosen work that I want to do in the church, for instance, and it didn't work out at ALL.

But then we are supposed to be willing to give up our very lives for God, and I worry about giving up television for His work with children at a ranch near us.

I have read books like "Jewish Life in the Middle Ages" by Abrahams, and "Mudhouse Sabbath" by Winner. Winner is an orthodox Jew who accepted Christ. The book is about the difference it made in how she lives her life, including how she misses the rituals Paul tells us we need not do, and why she misses them. I went back to history of the first 500 years after the resurrection to see the progression of our church separating itself from the synagogue, along with a careful study of Paul. My eyes are opened to making everyday routines part of our worship like is told of in the OT, that doing this has nothing to do with not learning all of Christ and NT teachings, but to a closer walk with Christ.

loveme1 · Jun 8, 2013

Love is the answer.

RedTent · Jun 8, 2013

loveme1 said:

Isn't this the whole of God! God is love shown in His creation and how it works, love is the law and how it operates the world, Love is all.

But like all things that we say is the answer, it leads us on. In the earliest Hebrew the written word love was a picture of bringing gifts. They didn't have words for abstract ideas without the literal. I think God thinks in Hebrew, like it says about faith. "Faith without works is dead". We have to carry out the abstract idea to make it true and complete.

Widdekind · Jun 9, 2013

RedTent said:

yes...

but...

the (true Spirit of the) Law is fulfilled, by following Jesus, and obeying his orders, e.g. "love one another"

the Christian claim, is that by following Jesus Christ, and obeying His orders, you are actually fulfilling the Spirit of the Law (but not the Letter of the Law)

iamsoandso · Jun 9, 2013

Galatians 5;4,,,,,,,,,,notice both are spoken of,,,,,but to those who are still subject to the law,,,,,,,,,,,,they have no part in the other.,,,,,,,,you are asking,,,"one or the other",,,,,"both is the answer",,,,one applies to the dead,one to the living,,,,,,,,

homwardbound · Jun 9, 2013

RedTent said:

When one sees the Old Testament as the Giant and does not have the "New" (the Midget) to coincide together one can be lost in their own work ethics and not ssee God
And this is usually not seen all the way home because one does not put the midget (New Teastament) on top of the Giants shoulder (Old Testament) to be able to see our home in Heaven consecrated by Christ for us that do believe, thorugh the cross death and then resurrection where new life is recieved

homwardbound · Jun 9, 2013

RedTent said:

I do not see it as us carrying it out I see it as God carrying it out through us, so there then is no room for pride and or biastfullness, God getting all the credit

enoch1nine · Jun 9, 2013

Being under the law is when you worry about your salvation because of breaking the letter of the law or keeping it.
Being under grace is knowing that even though you mess up, the Father calls you beautiful for worrying about hurting others, and thus keeping the law.

The difference in the two pertains to the reason you are keeping the law.
If you keep it in it's essence "love thy neighbor", you're under grace.
If you keep it in it's letter "a list of rules", you're under the law,
condemned because you do it "to appease an angry god, baal" instead of "because it keeps you from hurting others"

piper27 · Jun 9, 2013

Could the real 'work' be believing and abiding?? (only!!)

“For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also” (James 2:26). After God formed Adam, He breathed into him the breath of life (Gen. 2:7). This Hebrew word “breath” is also rendered “spirit” in other places (e.g., Job 26:4 and Prov. 20:27). Adam’s body and soul (physical, mental, and emotional parts) had no life in them until “spirit” was imparted. Your spirit is your life-giving part!

In your spirit, you’ve got the same power that raised Jesus Christ from the dead (Eph. 1:18-20). However, it’s possible to have this power and never manifest it. If your soul, like a valve, stays closed to this truth, you won’t experience it. Without opening the valve by renewing your mind to God’s Word, the eternal reality in your spirit won’t be able to impact the temporal “reality” of your physical realm. All that resurrection life and power just stays locked up inside until you look into the spiritual mirror long enough to see the real you and release it!
You could actually die with all of the power that raised Jesus from the dead sitting untapped within you. It would be like dying of thirst while leaning against a well full of life-giving water! If you’re dominated by what you feel, your soul is agreeing with the natural realm. “I feel sick and my body hurts. The doctor said I’m dying. Here’s my medical record to prove it!” Even though you have the resurrection life of God in your spirit, your soul can keep it shut off so that not one drop of life-giving power ever touches your physical body.
You can experience depression, anger, and bitterness all the while possessing God’s love, joy, and peace in your spirit (Gal. 5:22). Since this applies to every area of your life, can you see how pivotal your soul is?
Your body doesn’t really control anything. It just goes with the flow of what it sees, tastes, hears, smells, and feels unless otherwise influenced by the soul. It’s amoral—neither good nor bad. Left to itself, your body just reacts to and goes along with what’s happening in the physical realm.
When your soul agrees with your spirit, the life of God in you will manifest itself in your physical body. You’ll experience healing, deliverance, anointing, victory, power, joy, prosperity—on and on it goes! (Chapter 2 - Spirit Soul & Body - Andrew Wommack Ministries)

loveme1 · Jun 9, 2013

RedTent said:

Isn't this the whole of God! God is love shown in His creation and how it works, love is the law and how it operates the world, Love is all.

But like all things that we say is the answer, it leads us on. In the earliest Hebrew the written word love was a picture of bringing gifts. They didn't have words for abstract ideas without the literal. I think God thinks in Hebrew, like it says about faith. "Faith without works is dead". We have to carry out the abstract idea to make it true and complete.

Certainly so, for Love is a doing word

RedTent · Jun 9, 2013

homwardbound said:

I especially like this! Everytime man used his ego instead of thinking as God's child, he got in trouble. The OT gave us more about how doing carried out love, in the NT we are told more about love to be carried out in doing. Our doing can be so much more real through the HS and Christ.

But I think we have to take into consideration that at the very first the Jews wanted to evangelize by having new converts first become ritual Jews then accept Christ. They called it the law they had to obey, not talking of learning God principles but things like circumcision. It would be like us sending missionaries out to teach circumcision instead of Christ. Sometimes scripture uses the word "law" to address this, and sometimes we get what scripture says about this as also being against the law spoken of in psalm 119.

Widdekind · Jun 9, 2013

conclusion of "Sermon on Mount" = Matt 7 = Christians "bear fruit" & "act"

Entering the Kingdom

“Enter through the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the road is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who go through it. How narrow is the gate and difficult the road that leads to life, and few find it.

“Beware of false prophets who come to you in sheep’s clothing but inwardly are ravaging wolves. You’ll recognize them by their fruit. Are grapes gathered from thornbushes or figs from thistles? In the same way, every good tree produces good fruit, but a bad tree produces bad fruit. A good tree can’t produce bad fruit; neither can a bad tree produce good fruit. Every tree that doesn’t produce good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. So you’ll recognize them by their fruit.

“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord!’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of My Father in heaven. On that day many will say to Me, ‘Lord, Lord, didn’t we prophesy in Your name, drive out demons in Your name, and do many miracles in Your name?’ Then I will announce to them, ‘I never knew you! Depart from Me, you lawbreakers!’

The Two Foundations

“Therefore, everyone who hears these words of Mine and acts on them will be like a sensible man who built his house on the rock. The rain fell, the rivers rose, and the winds blew and pounded that house. Yet it didn’t collapse, because its foundation was on the rock. But everyone who hears these words of Mine and doesn’t act on them will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand. The rain fell, the rivers rose, the winds blew and pounded that house, and it collapsed. And its collapse was great!”

notconformed2theworld · Jun 9, 2013

Galatians 3:2-6, 10 KJV

This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh? Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain. He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness. For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

One or the other...and the law is alot harder to keep than to just believe that Christ fulfilled all aspects of the law and to believe that he dwells in us and now we are made righteous by the spirit of Christ. If the law was so easy to keep then why did Israel backslide so many times? Why was there a need for Jesus? No one can disagree that the law is the first 5 books of the bible...if u keep the sabbath but you don't stone someone for adultery then you are cursed because you do not keep all the things in the law.
Jesus always told the disciples to have faith. Faith comes from within...works of the law are external.
So you say that I'm not keeping the commandments or law of God...but yet God lives inside me thru his holy spirit. And Jesus said he will send us a comforter that will show us all things and help us.

John 14:26 KJV
But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

The holy spirit teaches us to be righteous in the eyes of God by faith and not works of the law.

John 16:13-15 KJV

Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you. All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

As the law was a schoolmaster to the Jews...the holy spirit is now the teacher of the church. Once again Paul says we don't receive the spirit by works of the law but by faith.

Think...why didn't God send the holy spirit without measure before Christ? Because no one had faith in keeping the law Cuz they couldn't and they knew they couldn't. But Jesus kept the law and now our faith of his fulfillment is in him and know we can please God. Without faith it is impossible to please Him. His grace and love are shed abroad in our hearts by the holy ghost.

homwardbound · Jun 10, 2013

piper27 said:

Could the real 'work' be believing and abiding?? (only!!)

“For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also” (James 2:26). After God formed Adam, He breathed into him the breath of life (Gen. 2:7). This Hebrew word “breath” is also rendered “spirit” in other places (e.g., Job 26:4 and Prov. 20:27). Adam’s body and soul (physical, mental, and emotional parts) had no life in them until “spirit” was imparted. Your spirit is your life-giving part!

In your spirit, you’ve got the same power that raised Jesus Christ from the dead (Eph. 1:18-20). However, it’s possible to have this power and never manifest it. If your soul, like a valve, stays closed to this truth, you won’t experience it. Without opening the valve by renewing your mind to God’s Word, the eternal reality in your spirit won’t be able to impact the temporal “reality” of your physical realm. All that resurrection life and power just stays locked up inside until you look into the spiritual mirror long enough to see the real you and release it!
You could actually die with all of the power that raised Jesus from the dead sitting untapped within you. It would be like dying of thirst while leaning against a well full of life-giving water! If you’re dominated by what you feel, your soul is agreeing with the natural realm. “I feel sick and my body hurts. The doctor said I’m dying. Here’s my medical record to prove it!” Even though you have the resurrection life of God in your spirit, your soul can keep it shut off so that not one drop of life-giving power ever touches your physical body.
You can experience depression, anger, and bitterness all the while possessing God’s love, joy, and peace in your spirit (Gal. 5:22). Since this applies to every area of your life, can you see how pivotal your soul is?
Your body doesn’t really control anything. It just goes with the flow of what it sees, tastes, hears, smells, and feels unless otherwise influenced by the soul. It’s amoral—neither good nor bad. Left to itself, your body just reacts to and goes along with what’s happening in the physical realm.
When your soul agrees with your spirit, the life of God in you will manifest itself in your physical body. You’ll experience healing, deliverance, anointing, victory, power, joy, prosperity—on and on it goes! (Chapter 2 - Spirit Soul & Body - Andrew Wommack Ministries)

Christ was born a life-giving Spirit and today gives this life-Spirit by the resurrection of the cross after he first took care of the sin debt, death, thus giving us life by his spirit of God he gave us starting at the dayof Pentecost

homwardbound · Jun 10, 2013

Widdekind said:

conclusion of "Sermon on Mount" = Matt 7 = Christians "bear fruit" & "act"

Entering the Kingdom

“Enter through the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the road is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who go through it. How narrow is the gate and difficult the road that leads to life, and few find it.

“Beware of false prophets who come to you in sheep’s clothing but inwardly are ravaging wolves. You’ll recognize them by their fruit. Are grapes gathered from thornbushes or figs from thistles? In the same way, every good tree produces good fruit, but a bad tree produces bad fruit. A good tree can’t produce bad fruit; neither can a bad tree produce good fruit. Every tree that doesn’t produce good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. So you’ll recognize them by their fruit.

“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord!’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of My Father in heaven. On that day many will say to Me, ‘Lord, Lord, didn’t we prophesy in Your name, drive out demons in Your name, and do many miracles in Your name?’ Then I will announce to them, ‘I never knew you! Depart from Me, you lawbreakers!’

The Two Foundations

“Therefore, everyone who hears these words of Mine and acts on them will be like a sensible man who built his house on the rock. The rain fell, the rivers rose, and the winds blew and pounded that house. Yet it didn’t collapse, because its foundation was on the rock. But everyone who hears these words of Mine and doesn’t act on them will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand. The rain fell, the rivers rose, the winds blew and pounded that house, and it collapsed. And its collapse was great!”

and it is by faith we walk in christ and are justified, the day will reveal it

JLHillsSr · Jun 10, 2013

To understand grace and law, one has to know what each means.

Gen 6:3 KJV - And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also [is] flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.

This spirit is the Holy Spirit. Prior to this point, it was not uncommon for man to live over 500 years. This I attribute to the ability to leave the body and enter into a state that was taken away by the loss of the Holy Spirit. Noah was the last to live by this set of rules. That is until Christ.

Since the cross the Holy Spirit has re-entered and so has the kingdom lost in the days of Noah.

What I find interesting, is the fact stated here:

Jos 24:2 KJV - And Joshua said unto all the people, Thus saith the LORD God of Israel, Your fathers dwelt on the other side of the flood in old time, [even] Terah, the father of Abraham, and the father of Nachor: and they served other gods.
Jos 24:3 KJV - And I took your father Abraham from the other side of the flood, and led him throughout all the land of Canaan, and multiplied his seed, and gave him Isaac.

Is this a literal or spiritual account?

CRUCIFIEDWITHCHRIST · Jun 10, 2013

Your not under the law if you be led by the spirit. If you are led by the spirit you will not fulfill the lust of the flesh. Any one that is transgressing is under the law. Jesus came to destroy the works of the devil and to fulfill the law. Those that are in Christ have crucified the flesh. The important issue is knowing how to come to this place. Most people if God permitt see that they need to be obedient and so that in self effort try to do what Jesus says and fall short. The lord actually tells you to do something that you cannot do without him. It brings a man to the place where he truly calls on the lord to save him. In one place it says no man can tame the tongue and then there is the verse that says let no corrupt communication come forth. A man cannot tame his tongue but God can. For every strong hold in a person's life , God is faithful to remove it, if we will come as little children and ask. It is not your responiblity to keep your self's from sin. It is God's and sense it is God's how good a job do you think the creator of the universe can do? We are saved by faith in him. A person has to be honest and examine if they are having that full assurance of faith in him,being kept from all the evil being one with the father and the son.

JLHillsSr · Jun 10, 2013

CRUCIFIEDWITHCHRIST said:

Your not under the law if you be led by the spirit. If you are led by the spirit you will not fulfill the lust of the flesh. Any one that is transgressing is under the law. Jesus came to destroy the works of the devil and to fulfill the law. Those that are in Christ have crucified the flesh. The important issue is knowing how to come to this place. Most people if God permitt see that they need to be obedient and so that in self effort try to do what Jesus says and fall short. The lord actually tells you to do something that you cannot do without him. It brings a man to the place where he truly calls on the lord to save him. In one place it says no man can tame the tongue and then there is the verse that says let no corrupt communication come forth. A man cannot tame his tongue but God can. For every strong hold in a person's life , God is faithful to remove it, if we will come as little children and ask. It is not your responiblity to keep your self's from sin. It is God's and sense it is God's how good a job do you think the creator of the universe can do? We are saved by faith in him. A person has to be honest and examine if they are having that full assurance of faith in him,being kept from all the evil being one with the father and the son.

I did not mean to say that the Spirit is the law. The flesh is the restraint, and without the Holy Spirit, we are not capable of leaving it.

CRUCIFIEDWITHCHRIST · Jun 10, 2013

Hello brother my post was not directed at you. God bless JLHILLSR

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