Are women allowed to Preach?

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7seasrekeyed

Guest
Originally Posted by Stunnedbygrace

This is a longish post so I will only address first what I am most concerned over, then will comment on anything else in a moment. You seem to have the impression that if I won't submit to someone because they are not walking in love but are rather demanding others be under some law, that this means I am refusing to love them. You equate submission as BEING love. This isn't so. Submission is not defined as love. Submission is the result of love. If someone is teaching obeying law and I therefore don't recognize them as having authority, it does not mean I don't love them.
I don't really want to get into an exchange about this, but I will make note that submission is not a result of love

for example, Jesus said to submit to the authorities...render unto Caesar what is his and unto God what is His (wording might not be spot on but that is the gist of it

and Paul said the same...basically

so, we respect the law...but not when it counters the law of God...we are also supposed to pray for those in authority

however, I happen to think that in particular includes praying that evil is exposed

anyway, not looking for a response here from you




no love there I am sure
 
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7seasrekeyed

Guest
I lived in Florida for twenty years. You can have it, lol.

Is it true Trudeau is Fidel Castro's son?


Small teaching groups is what 'church' is all about, IMO. The church doesn't think so. It's still locked into it's golden calf style of meeting and worship. I've kind of resigned myself to it. Which means I don't have a church. And honestly, don't expect to have one.
well keep in mind I am from the far North haha...missed snow this year...but not the slush and rain part

I do like FL...but I'm not in love...I am more of a mountains and lakes kind of person...we are here for a few reasons

about Trudeau...I think he thinks he is a world stage leader of some kind...def a one worlder

if the church model changes, it will most likely be because it HAS to
 
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7seasrekeyed

Guest
Dino246;3516826]


I see Genesis 3:16 as a consequence of sin, not a punishment for it, nor a command to live a certain way. The consequence includes the statement, "but he shall rule over you". The way that non-Christian men treat women is a fulfillment of this: men rule over women, often in very unpleasant ways. Worldly men in the church have introduced all manner of unbiblical teachings and practices, so it doesn't surprise me at all that women have been excluded from church ministry for most of its history. I only have to look as far as the Catholic church, which also forbids its priests from marrying, to find an example.

and look at the consequences of that...all the sex scandals...not being allowed to marry is totally unbiblical! (as I am sure you know)

I have not done the historical research to answer your question fully, but I suspect that as women pressed for the right to vote, to work, and for other legitimate freedoms, that they also looked at Scripture and saw inconsistencies in both the translations and in church practices. For myself, I look at Scripture and also read what I can find relevant to the subject.


agree with bolded above
 
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Like the difference between Jesus teaching and just anyone else's teaching:


"for He (Jesus) was teaching them as one having authority, and not as their scribes."-Matthew 7:29


We all know by spiritual instinct this authority to teach exists. Describing it in words? Not so easy. But we all know this authority exists. I think examining Jesus in his ministry is how to learn the difference.


I'm also thinking about Paul's "not with words, but with power" statement.
I at least agree with you on one thing today- it is the power of speaking with the power of the Holy Spirit.
We just disagree that it only happens with men.
 
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You are just another victim of the church's misunderstanding about Paul's 'law vs. grace' thing.

You doing something because you're supposed to do it, and don't feel like doing it, is NOT 'law'.

This misunderstanding is easily the primary reason the church is in the pathetic state it is in today. This is the conclusion I have come to. You can trace almost every false doctrine back to the church's lack of knowledge about Paul's 'law vs. grace' teaching.
I have no idea what you have said here. Literally no idea.
I submit out of love. I don't love out of submission.
 
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I don't really want to get into an exchange about this, but I will make note that submission is not a result of love

for example, Jesus said to submit to the authorities...render unto Caesar what is his and unto God what is His (wording might not be spot on but that is the gist of it

and Paul said the same...basically

so, we respect the law...but not when it counters the law of God...we are also supposed to pray for those in authority

however, I happen to think that in particular includes praying that evil is exposed

anyway, not looking for a response here from you




no love there I am sure
I'm not really looking for an exchange here either but I will make a note that when talking of submission as putting anothers concerns above your own, (love seeks not its own) it does lead to submission. Love is not submission. It is possible to submit but not love. But it is impossible to love and not submit to one another in that love.

As for your last sentence, I don't understand what you mean.
 

Mem

Senior Member
Sep 23, 2014
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What has this to do with churchministrie? Nobody doubts and there are enough examples that God is uesing woman in the gospelministrie. But we are talking about preaching in the normal church situation, if I understand right the OP.
Romans 16:1, "I commend you to our sister Phoebe, a servant of the church in Cenchrea."
 
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7seasrekeyed

Guest
I'm not really looking for an exchange here either but I will make a note that when talking of submission as putting anothers concerns above your own, (love seeks not its own) it does lead to submission. Love is not submission. It is possible to submit but not love. But it is impossible to love and not submit to one another in that love.

As for your last sentence, I don't understand what you mean.
uh...do you misunderstand what Jesus and Paul said regarding submission? it's not what I think there...it is what is in the Bible

submission is an act of the will...a decision if you will...you don't have to love...everything is not about love in the Bible..in fact, OBEDIENCE is a pretty big act of love as Jesus says if you love me, you will obey me

see will and obey there together?

last sentence...I was referring to no love with regards to submission in the regard to 'authorities'

anyway........
 
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Women are allowed to preach,teach,give Bible studies,praise,and worship,and sing,and do all that a man can do,and all are instructed by Jesus to preacher the Gospel of Christ to all people.

But in the Church where the saints are gathered together to hear the word of God,and to praise,and worship God,it should be a man to take the lead according to the authority structure of God on earth.

This does not mean a man is above a woman according to spiritual salvation belonging to the kingdom of God,but God has an authority structure on earth according to the flesh so things run smooth,and there is not fighting over who will be in charge,as sometimes men and women like to be at odds with each other as marriages and the world testifies,and they will fight over their sex,their difference,like the world will fight over their ethnic groups,their difference,and as they will fight over all their differences.

1Co 11:2 Now I praise you, brethren, that ye remember me in all things, and keep the ordinances, as I delivered them to you.
1Co 11:3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.

1Co 11:10 For this cause ought the woman to have power on her head because of the angels.

1Co 11:15 But if a woman have long hair, it is a glory to her: for her hair is given her for a covering.

Heb 1:7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.

Heb 1:14 Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?

1Pe 1:12 Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.

The authority structure concerning the Church is God,Christ,man,woman,and angels,for the saints will have a higher position in heaven than that of the angels,for they will have a glorified body like God's glorified body,and rule with Christ in the millennial reign of Christ,a privilege the angels will never have for they are ministering spirits,and sent to minister to the saints.

All things were created with the plan of God to come in the flesh,the man Christ Jesus,and without that plan God would of not created anything He created.

God loves the angels,but it was all created for people,so the woman has the authority above the angels concerning the Church.

God has to have an authority structure on earth so things run smooth,and the adults do not fight over who should be in charge,like the government,schools,businesses,and the such,has an authority structure.

When the saints are gathered together to hear the word of God,and to praise,and worship God,it should be the man to take the lead,but that does not mean he is above the woman concerning spiritual salvation,and the kingdom of God.

1Co 11:11 Nevertheless neither is the man without the woman, neither the woman without the man, in the Lord.
1Co 11:12 For as the woman is of the man, even so is the man also by the woman; but all things of God.

Gal 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
Gal 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Concerning the kingdom of God there is no authority structure between a man and a woman,for the only thing that separates a man and a woman is the flesh,the soul,and spirit,are the same,which a man asked about marriage in the afterlife,and Jesus said they do not marry in the afterlife,but they are like the angels who have no gender.There is no gender among angels,and people in heaven.

A woman can preach,teach,give Bible studies,praise,and worship,and sing,but in the Church it is the man that should take the lead,but it is according to only that man that takes the lead for he has the floor,and runs the show by the Spirit,and all the saints whether man or a woman are to comply to that man's authority unless they know according to the Bible that he is not acting in accordance to the Bible,then what do you do walk out,confront him in front of everybody,or confront him privately.

Act 2:17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
Act 2:18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy.

1Co 14:26 How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying.

Jas 1:5 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.

The man that takes the lead and in charge directs the service,and when he is finished taking the lead,then the saints collectively can share teachings,and psalms,and tongues,and such things of the kingdom of God on earth.

Would this only include men,or can woman also be included,for it does not make sense that the women cannot sing,and say psalms,and give testimonies,and if God gives to all people the truth of His word liberally,then the saints can know as much as the preacher in knowledge of the word of God whether man or woman,and since the man in charge is not leading at that time,and has given it over to the saints,then it would seem as a woman could preach,and teach,and do what the men will do at that time,for in the Lord there is not that authority structure,and the man in charge gave it over to the saints.

Even if the man in charge conducts the singing part of the service,are the women to be quiet,and cannot give testimonies,but I think they can because the man in charge allowed it,and he cannot stop it anyway during that part of the service,so how can they keep completely silent in Church when they should have to praise,and worship,and sing,unto the Lord,being a saint of God.

1Co 14:34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.
1Co 14:35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.

1Co 14:40 Let all things be done decently and in order.

If the man in charge says to a woman you may speak,for he knows she has something to say,and he wants to hear it,then she can speak.

When the man in charge has the floor then nobody is to speak whether man or woman,so they might of had a problem with the women speaking too much at that Church when the man in charge had the floor,and were asking their husbands to clear some things up for them,or maybe saying out loud that they did not understand,but the Bible says to confront their husband at home about it,and not bother the Church service while the man in charge has the floor.

But the men are not to speak either if the man in charge does not allow it,but confront him after the service is over.

But the woman asking the husband at home does not mean he will actually know how to answer her,for if the man and the woman is given the same ability to understand God's word then he might not know either without looking in to it further,and when at home the man and the woman would have to jointly find out the interpretation,for it is not at Church but at home,so I doubt if the woman has to keep silent and let the man deal with it,and then tell her,for she can look in to it herself,and if she knows before him,tell him about it,but it means take it home and do not interrupt the Church service while the man that is in charge has the floor.

Some may take it too far when they believe a woman should keep quiet in Church,like the men of the world can take it too far with how they deal with their girlfriends,and wives,wanting to control in a manner that is not right.

If a woman is out and about and deals with a person who wants to know about the Bible is she to say wait and let me get a man to tell you,which she should not but tell the person about the Bible.

If a woman meets a man from Church does he have authority above her,but he does not.

The man in charge in the Church has the floor,do not interrupt,but deal with it later,and the men and woman are on an equal level,for it deals with God's Church,and behold the kingdom of God dwells within you,so if they have the Spirit they are part of the kingdom of God in which there is no difference between a man and a woman.

Let one man be in charge,with Christ in charge of him,and God in charge of Christ,and let the women and men of that Church be on an equal level as they should be.

Maybe with the exception of deacons that they may some authority,but not like the man in charge who has the authority over him.
 

wolfwint

Senior Member
Feb 15, 2014
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Romans 16:1, "I commend you to our sister Phoebe, a servant of the church in Cenchrea."
If phoebe serves in the word, you are right. But nowhere is written as what she is serving and what she is doing in detail. To say, she was a preacher is only an assumption, without any biblical base. And for an proof that woman is allowed to preach/ teach in the sunday service you really cant count it.
 
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uh...do you misunderstand what Jesus and Paul said regarding submission? it's not what I think there...it is what is in the Bible

submission is an act of the will...a decision if you will...you don't have to love...everything is not about love in the Bible..in fact, OBEDIENCE is a pretty big act of love as Jesus says if you love me, you will obey me

see will and obey there together?

last sentence...I was referring to no love with regards to submission in the regard to 'authorities'

anyway........
Um...yeah, I think I do understand what they said regarding submission. It is not for their sake that we submit to our government. It is out of love to God and trust of Him that we do it, because we know He sets rulers in their place and takes rulers out of their place. (Not that we submit if they tell us, for instance, stop preaching in this name).

But as for those in authority over us as regards believers, no manor woman just submits in any old church they walk into. In fact, ralph has just said he has refused to submit to any pastor in a church and does not go to one because he has not found one where he could submit. He bases it on their teaching and so do I. If their teaching is love and not to control with law, I submit out of love.
 
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AuntieAnt

Guest
You ever drove with a ship? This ship had 1 ore 2 captains? Poor crew which should follow 2 captains. In a marriage you cant have 2 captains.What the bible says is clear, maby you should also quote this verses to have a full picture. Of course a wise captain would listen to the 1. Officer, but the responsibility he has to bear, so also in a marriage. I dont see a marriage as a master- servant relationship, in the case you think I do so. I love my wife!


Who questioned your relationship with your wife? And what in the world does your comment have to do with my post calling attention to a gang of unknown men assuming the role of pastors on this thread and bullying women with the scriptures like the Pharisees did?

Btw, thank you to those dear brothers who are actually standing up for the women on this thread.
 
R

Ralph-

Guest
well keep in mind I am from the far North haha...missed snow this year...but not the slush and rain part
I love snow.



...I am more of a mountains and lakes kind of person...
I lived in the Upper Peninsula of Michigan for a couple of years when I was in the Air Force. Grew up in Northern Indiana and southern Michigan. Love the north. Don't like bears, though. Or forest fires.


we are here for a few reasons
God has his reasons for punishing people, lol.



about Trudeau...I think he thinks he is a world stage leader of some kind...def a one worlder
Definitely.



if the church model changes, it will most likely be because it HAS to
Yep.

I keep wondering if open persecution and the coming economic apocalypse/ civil unrest is what is going to do that. In a weird kind of way I hope so. Can you imagine a church humbled and dependent on God and actually hungry for God in Western culture? The church would be transformed.
 
R

Ralph-

Guest
I have no idea what you have said here. Literally no idea.
Yes, I'm not surprised.
Even if I explain it to you, you probably still won't get it.

The church's misunderstanding of Paul's 'law vs. grace' goes very deep.


Good. You should.

Me too. To those who I am required to submit to. Same for you.




I don't love out of submission.
Why not?

Why do you not choose to love God/others out of submission to God's will for your life?
 
A

AuntieAnt

Guest
And godly women do not respond to THE WORD OF GOD in this manner. Only a rebellious woman makes such comments.

Why have you not simply agreed with Scripture and what it teaches in this regard? There is no "gang of men" who look like "rabid barking dogs" in this context.

All Christian churches since apostolic times have accepted that the Bible does indeed clearly teach that (a) Christian women are to be in subjection to their own husbands, (b) women are to be silent in the churches, and (c) women are forbidden to preach, teach, or usurp authority within the local assembly.

Those Scriptures have already been presented in this and other threads, and need not be repeated. So what you are objecting to is God's authority over your life and the authority of Scripture over all Christian doctrines and practices and over Christian churches. If these teachings can be dismissed and disregarded, then nothing remains sacrosanct. Scripture tells us that rebellion is as witchcraft.


Your constant attempts at censuring and demoralizing women in preaching and teaching positions is noxious. You and others who are harassing women in ministry and justifying your attacks on these women are in no way in subjection to Christ. Your actions contradict how Jesus treated women. You are a bully.

Do you ever wonder why women resort to feminism? It's because of the men who bully them, dishonor them, and disregard their human and spiritual rights. I would never be so foolish as to knuckle under to a strange man on the internet who exhibits no self-control, is not in submission to Christ, and who verbally abuses women in ministry, using the Bible as a weapon against her. You ought to be ashamed of yourself.
 
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Yes, I'm not surprised.
Even if I explain it to you, you probably still won't get it.

The church's misunderstanding of Paul's 'law vs. grace' goes very deep.



Good. You should.

Me too. To those who I am required to submit to. Same for you.





Why not?

Why do you not choose to love God/others out of submission to God's will for your life?
You are a lawyer, ralph. We are just going to remain miles apart in this. Walking in the Spirit is not about law but about freedom. The moment you make it about obedience to some Law of Paul rather than love, you have gone the wrong direction. And no, I don't expect you to understand that.
 
R

Ralph-

Guest
I at least agree with you on one thing today- it is the power of speaking with the power of the Holy Spirit.
We just disagree that it only happens with men.
It's more than just that. For surely women can speak with the power of the Holy Spirit.

Let's use myself, and you for illustration. No, don't leave. I'm not going to say what you think I'm going to say, lol.

On rare occasion I have said things in meetings that are from God. You probably have too. Everybody recognizes it, we digest it, we learn, we move on. But that hardly means either you or I are a pastor with spiritual authority over and spiritual responsibility for people. I don't have that calling, nor the capacity to fill it, neither do you. It is reserved for the few that God gives that office and calling to. And he only gives it to men.

A pastor, besides speaking directly on behalf of God (which even me and you may do on occasion), leads with authority by taking charge and responsibility for the spiritual development of the people in his care. He is a leader, not just someone who shares, like me and you and others do. By design, women simply do not have this calling. And neither do MOST men. It's just that those to whom it is given are men exclusively.


In the following passages, it's very clear that it men who have been given charge over and responsibility for a congregation.


"1Therefore, I exhort the elders among you, as your fellow elder and witness of the sufferings of Christ, and a partaker also of the glory that is to be revealed, 2shepherd the flock of God among you, exercising oversight not under compulsion, but voluntarily, according to the will of God; and not for sordid gain, but with eagerness; 3nor yet as lording it over those allotted to your charge, but proving to be examples to the flock. 4And when the Chief Shepherd appears, you will receive the unfading crown of glory. 5You younger men, likewise, be subject to your elders; and all of you, clothe yourselves with humility toward one another, for GOD IS OPPOSED TO THE PROUD, BUT GIVES GRACE TO THE HUMBLE."-1 Peter 5:1-5


"I left you in Crete, that you would set in order what remains and appoint elders in every city as I directed you, 6namely, if any man is above reproach, the husband of one wife, having children who believe, not accused of dissipation or rebellion. 7For the overseer must be above reproach as God’s steward, not self-willed, not quick-tempered, not addicted to wine, not pugnacious, not fond of sordid gain, 8but hospitable, loving what is good, sensible, just, devout, self-controlled, 9holding fast the faithful word which is in accordance with the teaching, so that he will be able both to exhort in sound doctrine and to refute those who contradict."-Titus 1:5-9


You just know when a man has the authority of this calling and when he does not. And women never have this calling, though they can function quite well in an anointing outside of the office of elder and overseer.
 
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Ralph-

Guest
You are a lawyer, ralph. We are just going to remain miles apart in this. Walking in the Spirit is not about law but about freedom. The moment you make it about obedience to some Law of Paul rather than love, you have gone the wrong direction. And no, I don't expect you to understand that.
If you or anybody else are ever tempted to steal, commit adultery, lie, etc. I expect you to obey the letter of the law whether you feel like it or not. There will be no excuses for not feeling like it, or not having the Spirit make you obey, etc. Doing what the law requires is not being legalistic. But I know that is what you have been taught. And most of all that is hardly you trying to earn your own salvation. The church is in utter darkness about this subject.
 
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You know...even in that first article I posted, I got the feeling that the article was pored over in an effort to find the slightest whiff of anything that would take away a mans authority to "rule" or "be the head." It was a very good article, so I don't understand why to walk in the Spirit in these matters would be viewed as any kind of threat, when we know that if anyone wants to be the head, they must make themselves lowest and be the servant...