Are You a Spiritual Infant?

[SteveEpperson]

Tony Evans teaches Pelagianism , Universalism (you don't have to be Christian to be saved), and that God is impuissant, (not Omnipotent). Among other falsehoods.
Not someone that is able to guide anyone who is a new Christian

Pastor Tony Evans teaches about the Gospel and how to apply it to our lives.

As far as all those other isms you mention, I don't want to spend the majority of my precious time reading about them. Instead, I prefer to study the bible.

 

[Icedaisey]

Pastor Tony Evans teaches about the Gospel and how to apply it to our lives.

As far as all those other isms you mention, I don't want to spend the majority of my precious time reading about them. Instead, I prefer to study the bible.

You don't want to learn about a blasphemer who frauds God's word and leads people down the wrong path?
You spent your precious time creating a thread to lead people to a fake teacher.

Our members are smart. They'll seek the truth and find Evans is not in Christ.

 

[SteveEpperson]

You don't want to learn about a blasphemer who frauds God's word and leads people down the wrong path?

If you had compelling evidence to suggest what you accuse him of, then I might take a look.

 

[Icedaisey]

If you had compelling evidence to suggest what you accuse him of, then I might take a look.

If you would have followed God's advice and tested the spirit of the man first, you'd have researched and found his false doctrine. And would have never recommended his teachings after having done so.

If I can find it, you can. If you don't want to know the truth, you won't. Others can't make you see it. You have to want to know it. And then you'll go find it.

 

[SophieT]

If you would have followed God's advice and tested the spirit of the man first, you'd have researched and found his false doctrine. And would have never recommended his teachings after having done so.

If I can find it, you can. If you don't want to know the truth, you won't. Others can't make you see it. You have to want to know it. And then you'll go find it.

the correct thing to do is to post your proof. that is both respectful and shows that you are not just making things up

anyone can say whatever they want otherwise

I don't know anything about the man being quoted in the op, but just to dismiss a request like you did sounds disingenuous. you are judging the op and chastising him. not very helpful. what you say might be correct, but you should quote your source

telling someone they do not want to know the truth is kind of arrogant

 

[SophieT]

well this is what I found concerning the beliefs of Pastor Tony Evans:

SALVATION
We believe that no one can enter the kingdom of God unless born again spiritually, and that the new birth of the believer comes only through faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God. We believe, also, that our redemption has been accomplished by the grace of God, an unmerited gift, given in love by God and not the result of any human works.
John 3:17-18; 2 Corinthians 5:21; Galatians 3:13; Romans 4:4-5

We believe that the explicit message of our Lord Jesus Christ to those whom He has saved is to make Christ known to the whole world and that this is the purpose of the church through the individuals within it.
Matthew 28:18-19; Acts 1:8; 2 Corinthians 5:11-21

We believe that local churches, such as Oak Cliff Bible Fellowship, gather together for practical instruction in the scriptures, for fellowship with God and with other believers, and for corporate witness to the unsaved world. Our common spiritual goal is to grow toward Christ’s likeness.
Matthew 28:18-20; Acts 2:42-47; Romans 12:5; Ephesians 4:13-16


does not sound like universalism

 

[Icedaisey]

the correct thing to do is to post your proof. that is both respectful and shows that you are not just making things up

anyone can say whatever they want otherwise

I don't know anything about the man being quoted in the op, but just to dismiss a request like you did sounds disingenuous. you are judging the op and chastising him. not very helpful. what you say might be correct, but you should quote your source

telling someone they do not want to know the truth is kind of arrogant

Actually, arrogance arrives when someone asks Christians if they're a spiritual infant, using a source they know nothing about.

Arrogance continues further when thinking said source is credible, and able to imply the article points are able to criticize and condemn readers who do not fit it's framework.

Famed arrogance, is Tony Evans.


Arrogance takes the OP at face value without checking the credibility if the sour e. And then thinks to chastise me because I did.

You accept the OP without proof it's a credible teaching. Now you think I should prove it isn't by posting credible proof.
That's arrogant and lazy and irresponsible. In the time it took you to write your condemning post you could have found out about Evans yourself.


If the OP was more responsible, they'd verify their source and know his theology before thinking it worthy of our members.

We owe it to ourselves to test the spirits.
If that's too much trouble, that says a lot about priorities.

 

[Icedaisey]

False teachings Tony Evans

Takes a matter of seconds.

 

[SophieT]

Actually, arrogance arrives when someone asks Christians if they're a spiritual infant, using a source they know nothing about.

that's your opinion. there are plenty of spiritual infants still chewing on baby food who have been saved for years. some inhabit online forums

Arrogance takes the OP at face value without checking the credibility if the sour e. And then thinks to chastise me because I did.

personally, I do not take things at face value which is why I said you should reference your statement with a source. that is common courtesy and the correct way to exchange info. otherwise, as I previously stated, anyone can say anything which leads to bad communication and basically a circus of opinions

You accept the OP without proof it's a credible teaching. Now you think I should prove it isn't by posting credible proof.
That's arrogant and lazy and irresponsible. In the time it took you to write your condemning post you could have found out about Evans yourself.

my you sure do have a way with words. I don't accept what you say without you providing proof so why would I accept something from an op I do not know about a man I do not know? try to keep up

If the OP was more responsible, they'd verify their source and know his theology before thinking it worthy of our members.

We owe it to ourselves to test the spirits.
If that's too much trouble, that says a lot about priorities.

don't blame the op when you posted without sourcing your opinion

that's just really not too credible

I didn't address you in a rude manner...I cannot say you responded in kind

 

[SophieT]

False teachings Tony Evans

Takes a matter of seconds.

well there you go

now you sound more credible and people can decide for themselves

 

[Icedaisey]

that's your opinion. there are plenty of spiritual infants still chewing on baby food who have been saved for years. some inhabit online forums



personally, I do not take things at face value which is why I said you should reference your statement with a source. that is common courtesy and the correct way to exchange info. otherwise, as I previously stated, anyone can say anything which leads to bad communication and basically a circus of opinions



my you sure do have a way with words. I don't accept what you say without you providing proof so why would I accept something from an op I do not know about a man I do not know? try to keep up



don't blame the op when you posted without sourcing your opinion

that's just really not too credible

I didn't address you in a rude manner...I cannot say your responded in kind

Your entire post is self contradictory. Do you realize this?

You claim you don't take anything at face value, after chastising me for not providing you proof Tony Evans is a false teacher.

Someone who doesn't accept things on face value, btw does that include the Bible?, does their own research.
You didn't when you instead first chose to chastise me.

Rude? You don't think calling me arrogant and whatnot in your first post was rude. Then my response to that wasn't rude.
It was actually a direct rebuttal to your remarks.

This issue isn't about you or me.

Christians that follow Evans do so at their peril. He leads away from the truth of God in scripture. Not to.

"There are two answers to every question - God's answer and everybody else's - and everybody else is wrong when they disagree with him."
Tony Evans

Evans, pre-2020 election gave a sermon wherein he said we must ignore the issue of abortion after birth when casting our vote.
He's also said we should embrace Socialism in order to have a biblical view of politics.
Some see him as a great example of a theologian to represent the "woke church".

I shared a link to Google results for TE. It's easy to pick any proof about Evans. He's not shy about his politics or heretical beliefs.

Tony Evans issues call for Kingdom Race Theology

 

[Icedaisey]

well there you go

now you sound more credible and people can decide for themselves

 

[SophieT]

Your entire post is self contradictory. Do you realize this?

You claim you don't take anything at face value, after chastising me for not providing you proof Tony Evans is a false teacher.

Someone who doesn't accept things on face value, btw does that include the Bible?, does their own research.
You didn't when you instead first chose to chastise me.

Rude? You don't think calling me arrogant and whatnot in your first post was rude. Then my response to that wasn't rude.
It was actually a direct rebuttal to your remarks.

This issue isn't about you or me.

Christians that follow Evans do so at their peril. He leads away from the truth of God in scripture. Not to.

"There are two answers to every question - God's answer and everybody else's - and everybody else is wrong when they disagree with him."
Tony Evans

Evans, pre-2020 election gave a sermon wherein he said we must ignore the issue of abortion after birth when casting our vote.
He's also said we should embrace Socialism in order to have a biblical view of politics.
Some see him as a great example of a theologian to represent the "woke church".

I shared a link to Google results for TE. It's easy to pick any proof about Evans. He's not shy about his politics or heretical beliefs.

Tony Evans issues call for Kingdom Race Theology

all because I said you should source your opinions or facts or whatever they are

 

[Icedaisey]

all because I said you should source your opinions or facts or whatever they are

Sweet dreams.

 

[Mdennis1]

Are You a Spiritual Infant?

Dr. Tony Evans, pastor of Oak Cliff Bible Fellowship in Dallas, broadcast a sermon last Wednesday on CSN Radio. It was titled Time to Grow Up.


In it, he posed the question, "Are you a spiritual infant?"


And while this is a valid question for all of us who gave our lives to Christ, it may be somewhat misplaced.


Keep reading because the evidence shows that, although God wants us to be mature in our ways, our churches aren't allowing that growth to happen.


Worse, the institutional hierarchy forced on Christians over 2,000 years ago has created a system where those at the top are unwilling to yield power back to God.


But first, it's essential to start with Dr. Evans' sermon.


The Case for Maturing as a Christian

Dr. Evans begins by noting the shifting environment between being a non-Christian and a new convert. He says that the minute we submit to Christ, we transfer from the dark to the light, from hell to eternal life with God.


Spiritual maturity

According to Dr. Evans, God wants us to grow up. He says, "Too many of God's children are still in the crib."


He points to this scripture written by Paul to the church in Colosse:


We proclaim him by instructing and teaching all people with all wisdom so that we may present every person mature in Christ. Toward this goal I also labor, struggling according to his power that powerfully works in me. Col. 1:28-29 NET2


Paul accepted the responsibility

Notice how Paul took immediate responsibility for this critical task. And in turn, he tasked the leaders of this church to do the same.


Simply put, it was the responsibility of the church leaders to present everyone mature in Christ. And the reason Paul struggled and labored so hard is that he realized that if he failed, there was no one else to blame.


But also notice that he didn't tell them to go out and get a college degree first. Nor were there any "Discipleship 101" classes. Instead, he simply assumed that the leading of the Holy Spirit would be sufficient for everyone in the church to be successful.


Why Are We a Bunch of Spiritual Infants?

Here is what Dr. Evans says:


"If you've been saved five years or more, and you are not spiritual (where you look through God's lens as a normal way you operate), then you are a spiritual infant, a fleshly believer, who is missing out on [a] spiritual experience."


He then points to this scripture:


About this we have much to say, and it is hard to explain, since you have become dull of hearing. For though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to teach you again the basic principles of the oracles of God. You need milk, not solid food, for everyone who lives on milk is unskilled in the word of righteousness, since he is a child. But solid food is for the mature, for those who have their powers of discernment trained by constant practice to distinguish good from evil. Heb. 5:11 ESV

This passage is often misunderstood

Like so many other pastors who have preached on this subject, Dr. Evans assumes that these people had never had an ounce of teaching fed to them. And the result is that they were spiritual infants.


However, that's not true according to the context. For example, when the writer (presumably an apostle) says, "you need someone to teach you again," they affirm that the church was grounded in at least the fundamentals of the Gospel.


Also, the statement, "you have become dull of hearing," suggests that these students had merely digressed, and this entire rebuke was designed to shame them into caring more about their progress.


Some commentators even go further to say that those in the Church at Colosse were mature, but they were acting like spiritual infants, presumably from being persecuted constantly.


This is not to say that the writer let them off the hook in any way. That's because there was lots of one-on-one discipleship going on in the church, unlike today.


There were massive amounts of time invested in all church members, not just the ones who were fortunate enough to attend college. These were ordinary people. And they were trained every day by the leadership to do extraordinary things.


No wonder the writer was so indignant when those in the church had fallen away. Paul and other church leaders had a right to be upset.

Do Today's Leaders Have the Right to Complain?

Today, many pastors point to Hebrews 5:11 as permission to show the same righteous indignation toward us lowly church attendees as the writer did back then.


However, there is a difference between those in the early church and us today. They were being trained, while today, we're being entertained. For that reason, church leaders have no right to shame us in the same way.


The Current Church Model is Broken

Part of the problem of being stuck in infancy is the way we "do church." Discipleship for the average Christian attending a North American church looks like this:

• Sit for one hour a week in church listening to the only person allowed to speak
• Go to bible study on Wednesdays except when the pastor is out sick, or during holidays, or summer breaks, or when school is out, or when there's no bible study offered
• Attend an occasional "marriage seminar" costing only $399 while seats are available

Church leaders are afraid to let others teach since they are the ones who earned a degree in theology. Worse, some are so possessed by power that they will not let go of the reigns for even a moment.


One Possible Fix

For about 2,000 years now, Christ-followers have endured a top-down, hierarchal system where we were dictated to by academic elites. But maybe now is the time for a bottom-up approach to discipleship that Paul espoused.


Here are some ideas to get started on the journey to becoming mature Christians:

1. Take back our churches by firing all paid employees and turning them into volunteers like us
2. Stop preaching sermons for six months. Instead, invite the unsaved to the church building for open-house, question and answer sessions on Saturdays and Sundays.
3. Open the church on Tuesdays for family game night
4. Open the church on Thursdays for discipleship training
5. Open the church on Fridays for crisis prevention or food bank activities

In other words, we need to take back the keys from overpaid administrators and open up our churches to the community once again. Only when our church dies to itself will it live again as a new creation in Christ.

If you worship, pray and study God's word there is no reason not to grow as a Christian.
One cannot entirely put all blame on a church or organization.
We are personally responsible before God is individuals as to how we live out our lives..
Keep in mind all churches have challenges because they are filled with sinners.
For example..
How many letters did the apostles write to churches that were struggling with different issues?
When addressing issues within any church or organization, we should let our words be gracious, humble and seasoned with salt.
We're to be especially kind to the household of faith as scripture says.

Remember we fight not against flesh and blood but it's a spiritual battle..

I agree the American church as a whole doesn't do well at reaching the lost and discipling others to do the same.
However....
When we are critical of others, are we guilty of the same. Do we lead lead by example?
We all fail sometimes.
God's Blessings.

 

[SteveEpperson]

well this is what I found concerning the beliefs of Pastor Tony Evans:

Thank you for this. It's good to defend legitimate leaders like Dr. Evans.

However, I was hoping no one would be led down another rabbit hole just because of one person.

So, how do you feel about the suggestions at the end of my post?

Do you agree or disagree with the piece?

 

[SteveEpperson]

If you worship, pray and study God's word there is no reason not to grow as a Christian

I disagree. Would you allow a ten-year-old to live by themselves, hand them a self-help book, and tell them to raise themselves without parents?

Certainly not!

So, why do we tell new converts to recite the sinner's prayer, hand them a bible, and forget they even exist from then on?

When we don't provide spiritual parents, we send them into battle with nothing but a sword they don't know how to use.

One cannot entirely put all blame on a church or organization

The blame for a child being abandoned by their parents falls directly on the parents, not the government.

Likewise, the blame for a spiritual infant staying a spiritual infant falls directly on the pastor, not the church.

We are personally responsible before God is individuals as to how we live out our lives..

Pay careful attention to yourselves and to all the flock, in which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to care for the church of God, which he obtained with his own blood. Acts 20:21

I don't think Paul was talking about the way pastors care for their flock today:

1. Preach a one-hour sermon each week and hope everyone "gets it"
2. Write a book in the hopes of "reaching more people for Christ"
3. Protect your precious time by hiring several gatekeepers
4. Protect your precious time by locking yourself in an office
5. Protect your precious time by having people fill out a "prayer request card"
6. Protect your precious time by publishing a website complete with a "contact form"
7. Protect your celebrity status by making yourself unavailable to anyone at anytime

The point I am trying to make here is that we need non-professional shepherds who have died to themselves and their ambitions. And the only way to do that is to go back to having humble leaders in the church rather than high-paid administrators.

Keep in mind all churches have challenges because they are filled with sinners.

I agree. That's why a one-hour sermon a week isn't going to cut it. We need people to get in the trenches with us. The teachers have to get their hands dirty.

Check out any one of the many US Marine Corps boot camp videos on YouTube and you'll see what I mean. The drill instructors don't just give the recruits a one-hour lecture, turn them loose, and then hope they complete their training for the week. They're right there with them, ensuring they do exactly what's required.

So too must the church leaders come alongside the new convert, leading them every step of the way, ensuring they at least know how to fight a spiritual battle.

Instead, as soon as the baby Christian proclaims their faith in Christ, they're left to fend for themselves on a battlefield where the enemy's Howitzers pummel them from a distance. So, they have no chance to grow since they are ill-equipped to "fight the good fight."

Remember we fight not against flesh and blood but it's a spiritual battle..

Yes, and right now, we're getting obliterated by the enemy as evidenced by the high divorce rate among evangelical Christians.

According to the Pew Research Center, the divorce rate among protestant Christians still hovers around 51 percent. So, something clearly isn't working.

I agree the American church as a whole doesn't do well at reaching the lost and discipling others to do the same.

It does a fantastic job of self-preservation. But like I said in my piece, a new paradigm is required. The church must die to itself, so it can be resurrected with Christ.

When we are critical of others, are we guilty of the same. Do we lead lead by example?
We all fail sometimes.

This is why I call on fellow Christians to take back control of our churches, to stop relying on power-hungry administrators hiding from the flock, and grab the keys so we can once again open the church doors to our communities.

And while it won't be easy to hand control back over to God, it will be well worth it.

 

[SteveEpperson]

False teachings Tony Evans

Takes a matter of seconds.

You'll need a more credible source than this to convince me.

However, even if John McArthur was to call out Dr. Evans for having apostate beliefs, it wouldn't surprise me. After all, he's the same pastor who openly states that all Charismatics are destined for hell.

And although I disagree with McArthur for his judgemental viewpoints, I still appreciate his preaching concerning the Gospel. So, if you would have read my post a bit closer, you would have realized that both preachers are at the top of my list, including others.

 

[p_rehbein]

Regarding the Title of the OP:

No.

 

[p_rehbein]

Part of the problem of being stuck in infancy is the way we "do church." Discipleship for the average Christian attending a North American church looks like this:

Have you visited all the the Congregations in North America to be qualified to state that the "average" Church looks that way?

I do agree that there are a lot of believers who are spiritually immature, but there are various reasons for that.

Spiritual Maturity can ONLY be achieved with the indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit. ONLY when a believer becomes a Spiritual believer, and no longer a Carnal believer as the Apostle Paul taught. Many Congregations, Believers, and even Denominations do not believe in or understand the indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit. These believers may be saved, but they will never be sanctified UNTIL they receive the indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit. They will remain "spiritual infants."