Are you a Trinitarian, and if so, can you defend the doctrine?

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Are you a Trinitarian, and can you defend the doctrine?

  • Yes, I am a Trinitarian, and I can defend the doctrine.

    Votes: 23 69.7%
  • Yes, I am a Trinitarian, but I cannot defend the doctrine.

    Votes: 1 3.0%
  • No, I deny the doctrine of the Trinity.

    Votes: 7 21.2%
  • I don't know if the Trinity is true or false.

    Votes: 2 6.1%

  • Total voters
    33

Noose

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2016
5,096
932
113
You getting worried eh ? Jesus is the Alpha and Omega , the Living Word
Of course he is, that still can not explain your ideas about 3 persons in 1 being.
 

bojack

Well-known member
Dec 16, 2019
954
471
63
Of course he is, that still can not explain your ideas about 3 persons in 1 being.
What, you need an explanation for the Holy Ghost being God also ? You need to go punch your teachers in the mouth ...
 

Noose

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2016
5,096
932
113
What, you need an explanation for the Holy Ghost being God also ? You need to go punch your teachers in the mouth ...
Maybe an explanation of why you think He is a 'distinct person'.

Jesus' explanation tends to suggest otherwise:

John 14:16And I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Advocatef to be with you forever— 17the Spirit of truth. The world cannot receive Him, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him. But you do know Him, for He abides with you and will be in you. 18I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you.

John 16: 7But I tell you the truth, it is for your benefit that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Advocatea will not come to you; but if I go, I will send Him to you.

1. The advocate was already there, abiding with the disciples and they knew Him, but still;
2. Jesus had to go for the advocate to come in them
3. If Jesus doesn't go, the advocate won't come yet the advocate was already there with them
4. Jesus promises to come to them shortly.

It is simple. These are not 2 persons, just one who was there with the disciples and they knew Him but had to go and come in them (in a different form).
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
26,377
7,491
113
Proverbs 18:4The words of a man's mouth are deep waters; the fountain of wisdom is a bubbling brook.
We went through this discussion last year, you and I, I remember. I really don't think this passage is a basis to say that Genesis 1:2 refers to the heart of Adam. That's unjustified, IMO

Even within solipsism, though, why wouldn't you accept that Christ, appearing in your heart, is literally God made manifest in your hearts eye? He is alive, unlike anything else you perceive within that paradigm; the one giving you life even as you behold Him, the unseen made visible.

And if God were to make Himself known in your minds eye creation, why should He appear in a thin projection like all creation? Wouldn't you expect His appearing to be different in substance, inexplicably richer? This is the One who peels back the sky like a scroll we are talking about, who transcends everything perceived as reality.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
26,377
7,491
113
Working, presently. Sorry I can't keep up with the whole thread, maybe I can catch up this evening.
 

Noose

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2016
5,096
932
113
We went through this discussion last year, you and I, I remember. I really don't think this passage is a basis to say that Genesis 1:2 refers to the heart of Adam. That's unjustified.

Even within solipsism, though, why wouldn't you accept that Christ, appearing in your heart, is literally God made manifest in your hearts eye? He is alive, unlike anything else you perceive within that paradigm; the one giving you life even as you behold Him, the unseen made visible.

And if God were to make Himself known in your minds eye creation, why should He appear in a thin projection like all creation? Wouldn't you expect His appearing to be different in substance, inexplicably richer? This is the One who peels back the sky like a scroll we are talking about, who transcends everything perceived as reality.
Because the bible says through Adam sin entered the world. The world here means everything created that is not God including you and i.
When i asked you, when do you think you were created, the answer i was expecting is when Adam was created because in 6 days God finished all His creation work. You and i being part of this world means that everything created is in Adam. His disobedience affects everything.

Christ being the second Adam, through Him and by Him, everything is created a new. Now, you don't expect to see the dust disappear and reappear afresh to know that the heavens and the earth have been recreated. It is just not visible to our fallen eyes but we should be understanding this, and it is actually not the first time that the universe has been recreated:

2 Pet 3: 5But they deliberately forget that long ago by God’s word the heavens came into being and the earth was formed out of water and by water. 6By these waters also the world of that time was deluged and destroyed. 7By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly.

Peter here says the world before (heavens and earth- and its dust) were destroyed (passed away) yet for us and the people then the dust did not go away. Why? because it is a new world recreated in hearts of the 8 that survived, for this reason, Peter referred to it as present world but he actually means the people. Now, these new world or rather the ungodly people, are reserved for fire yet the new heavens and new earth will be preserved through the godly.

So it is not actually the dust (visible) but the hearts of men means the universe. So yes, God creates through the hearts of men, first through Adam and all in Adam, and second through Christ and all in Christ.
 

bojack

Well-known member
Dec 16, 2019
954
471
63
Maybe an explanation of why you think He is a 'distinct person'.

Jesus' explanation tends to suggest otherwise:

John 14:16And I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Advocatef to be with you forever— 17the Spirit of truth. The world cannot receive Him, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him. But you do know Him, for He abides with you and will be in you. 18I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you.

John 16: 7But I tell you the truth, it is for your benefit that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Advocatea will not come to you; but if I go, I will send Him to you.

1. The advocate was already there, abiding with the disciples and they knew Him, but still;
2. Jesus had to go for the advocate to come in them
3. If Jesus doesn't go, the advocate won't come yet the advocate was already there with them
4. Jesus promises to come to them shortly.

It is simple. These are not 2 persons, just one who was there with the disciples and they knew Him but had to go and come in them (in a different form).
Jesus never sinned and when He, took our sin raw as a man to became our sin then suffered rejection and hell for us and not just the physical pain, He tasted death and hell for us as the innocent Lamb of God .... Hung on a tree suspended between heaven and earth .. I'd say He was on His own , the whole earth become dark from about the 6th hr to the 9th, the light of the world had went out , but there's good news .. And after having that vision of hell .. Knowing Jesus knew means more than who could ever know in this life .. I can't comprehend it all and don't think I could take it in this life though I have caught a glimpse during fasting and prayer .. And I'll not leave Him hanging .. He is my Lord and my God and all I can do is fall short


Jesus says He will ask the Father and Jesus says He will send the Holy Ghost to us , same one God ..
John 14:16And I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Advocatef to be with you forever— 17the Spirit of truth. The world cannot receive Him, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him. But you do know Him, for He abides with you and will be in you. 18I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you.
John 16: 7But I tell you the truth, it is for your benefit that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Advocatea will not come to you; but if I go, I will send Him to you.

God is omnipresent and the evilest of people are in that presence whether they realize it or not and they don't is the only reason any could not fear God .. As I mentioned , Hell will be eternal separation out from and away from God's presence, a state of being much worse than any heat or shackles .. I had a vision long ago , more horror and hopelessness than there are words to describe it ..
Being ''born again'' of the Holy Spirit is a personal thing that comes from excepting God as our Savior .. Adam was not God, Jesus was both man and God .. 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
 

Alertandawake

Senior Member
Aug 20, 2017
436
93
28
Ok I have a question for you trinitarians. In John 14:16, this part here "And I will ask the Father" How do you understand this?

Now for the moment, let us use the irrational concept of the trinity.

Now is this how you trinitarians understands this in John 14.16:

I = Jesus,
Jesus = God
The Father = God
God = The Supreme Being

"And I(God) will ask the Father (God)" ?


Are you trinitarians trying to say to people that God needs to ask God?

Try to use reason. When you break it down and look at it logically, one can see this trinity concept makes no sense at all.
 

bojack

Well-known member
Dec 16, 2019
954
471
63
Ok I have a question for you trinitarians. In John 14:16, this part here "And I will ask the Father" How do you understand this?

Now for the moment, let us use the irrational concept of the trinity.

Now is this how you trinitarians understands this in John 14.16:

I = Jesus,
Jesus = God
The Father = God
God
= The Supreme Being

"And I(God) will ask the Father (God)" ?


Are you trinitarians trying to say to people that God needs to ask God?

Try to use reason. When you break it down and look at it logically, one can see this trinity concept makes no sense at all.
Did Jesus bring honor to His Father and mother too ? What thing did Jesus do or not do that disqualifies Him from being God .. Jesus come to save us and to fulfill all scripture but He also come to teach us and show us how to act both towards both God and man as a man .. Perhaps when Jesus returns you will see God the Son more to your liking ..
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
26,377
7,491
113
Of course he is, that still can not explain your ideas about 3 persons in 1 being.
have you ever been tired, but pressed on?

that was your spirit & your mind, both you, your body and your soul at odds with each other - distinct. and one you persuaded the other you.

how may of you i got?
 

Noose

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2016
5,096
932
113
have you ever been tired, but pressed on?

that was your spirit & your mind, both you, your body and your soul at odds with each other - distinct. and one you persuaded the other you.

how may of you i got?
Yes i have but let's be honest and let's talk as humans and try to understand as humans we are. All of me is considered as one person and Jesus being found in our form must have been one person even though He claimed the Father and the Holy spirit are in Him.
 

Noose

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2016
5,096
932
113
Jesus never sinned and when He, took our sin raw as a man to became our sin then suffered rejection and hell for us and not just the physical pain, He tasted death and hell for us as the innocent Lamb of God .... Hung on a tree suspended between heaven and earth .. I'd say He was on His own , the whole earth become dark from about the 6th hr to the 9th, the light of the world had went out , but there's good news .. And after having that vision of hell .. Knowing Jesus knew means more than who could ever know in this life .. I can't comprehend it all and don't think I could take it in this life though I have caught a glimpse during fasting and prayer .. And I'll not leave Him hanging .. He is my Lord and my God and all I can do is fall short


Jesus says He will ask the Father and Jesus says He will send the Holy Ghost to us , same one God ..
John 14:16And I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Advocatef to be with you forever— 17the Spirit of truth. The world cannot receive Him, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him. But you do know Him, for He abides with you and will be in you. 18I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you.
John 16: 7But I tell you the truth, it is for your benefit that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Advocatea will not come to you; but if I go, I will send Him to you.

God is omnipresent and the evilest of people are in that presence whether they realize it or not and they don't is the only reason any could not fear God .. As I mentioned , Hell will be eternal separation out from and away from God's presence, a state of being much worse than any heat or shackles .. I had a vision long ago , more horror and hopelessness than there are words to describe it ..
Being ''born again'' of the Holy Spirit is a personal thing that comes from excepting God as our Savior .. Adam was not God, Jesus was both man and God .. 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
My point on John 14/15/16 if you are careful to read again, Jesus is claiming to be the advocate because He says the advocate was already there with the disciples and they knew Him yet He (Jesus) had to go for the advocate to come.And then He says He is not going forever leaving them comfortless, He is coming to them shortly to be with them and comfort them (the work of the advocate).
It is poetic but don't get lost in the wordings, look at the context.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
26,377
7,491
113
Yes i have but let's be honest and let's talk as humans and try to understand as humans we are. All of me is considered as one person and Jesus being found in our form must have been one person even though He claimed the Father and the Holy spirit are in Him.
okay, a couple of examples here of speaking as an human:

And I will say to my soul, Soul, thou hast much goods laid up for many years; take thine ease, eat, drink, and be merry.
(Luke 12:19)
Why are you cast down, O my soul?
And why are you disquieted within me?
Hope in God;
For I shall yet praise Him,
The help of my countenance and my God
(Psalm 42:11)

when an human says something to their own soul, who is speaking?

we have distinct entities within ourselves, which together comprise one being. there is a physical you and a non-physical you, which sometimes agee and sometimes do not: they are separate, distinct, yet they are one. even our bodies have both a brain and an heart - both of which are composed of neural material, both of which originate thought and exercise will, but are one body. aren't the eternal qualities of God clearly seen by what has been made?
 

JohnR7

Active member
Dec 30, 2019
796
173
43
three distinct Persons, Father, Son and Holy Spirit
I was seeking to know God. God lead me to Jesus, Jesus showed me the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit lead me back to Jesus and Jesus lead me back to the Father. When we read in Genesis 1:26: "Then God said, "Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness". The US is a reference to Father, Son & Holy Spirit. We are currently in the Holy Spirit dispensation. A time of Grace, the Church age, Time of the Gentiles. There are many names for the time we live in. Soon the Church age will come to an end as the final great harvest has already begun. Then we will enter into the Kingdom age or the 1,000 year reign of Christ. This will be a time of the Manifest Sons (daughters) of God. Joint Heirs with Christ. We will rule and reign with Him. "If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us" (2Timothy2:12) Jesus began His ministry with new wine at a wedding in 26 AD. So I am expecting something to happen in 2026 that will be symbolic to represent new wine and a wedding. Pentecost 2029 I believe is the 2,000 years anniversary or birthday of the Church.
 

Noose

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2016
5,096
932
113
okay, a couple of examples here of speaking as an human:

And I will say to my soul, Soul, thou hast much goods laid up for many years; take thine ease, eat, drink, and be merry.
(Luke 12:19)
Why are you cast down, O my soul?
And why are you disquieted within me?
Hope in God;
For I shall yet praise Him,
The help of my countenance and my God
(Psalm 42:11)

when an human says something to their own soul, who is speaking?

we have distinct entities within ourselves, which together comprise one being. there is a physical you and a non-physical you, which sometimes agee and sometimes do not: they are separate, distinct, yet they are one. even our bodies have both a brain and an heart - both of which are composed of neural material, both of which originate thought and exercise will, but are one body. aren't the eternal qualities of God clearly seen by what has been made?
All that amounts to one person/one being. Nobody sees you @posthuman and goes, "here comes two persons", same thing with Jesus even though the Father and the spirit 'lived' in Him.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
26,377
7,491
113
All that amounts to one person/one being. Nobody sees you @posthuman and goes, "here comes two persons", same thing with Jesus even though the Father and the spirit 'lived' in Him.
When someone sees my body in a casket one day they will say, that is post, but that is not post, and they will know that there's only one of me, even while there are 3 very distinct things called me.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
26,377
7,491
113
The point here is that mankind, made in the image of God, has a certain triune nature. We have three distinct, identifiable 'parts' that individually stand on their own yet in concert make one unique being.

So it is not as though a triune Creator is an unnatural, totally alien notion.
 

Noose

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2016
5,096
932
113
No Christian says there are two or three Gods, either
Many Christians talk of three persons and we go back to the question; how many persons was Jesus even when the Father and the Holy spirit lived in Him?
 

bojack

Well-known member
Dec 16, 2019
954
471
63
My point on John 14/15/16 if you are careful to read again, Jesus is claiming to be the advocate because He says the advocate was already there with the disciples and they knew Him yet He (Jesus) had to go for the advocate to come.And then He says He is not going forever leaving them comfortless, He is coming to them shortly to be with them and comfort them (the work of the advocate).
It is poetic but don't get lost in the wordings, look at the context.
You sound like a crooked lawyer trying to convince some one there's a loophole in the fine print .. Your problem is preaching against Jesus, not misunderstanding that He is God .. Once you take the authority to teach Jesus is not God, you own it with your freewill ..