Are you a Trinitarian, and if so, can you defend the doctrine?

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Are you a Trinitarian, and can you defend the doctrine?

  • Yes, I am a Trinitarian, and I can defend the doctrine.

    Votes: 37 63.8%
  • Yes, I am a Trinitarian, but I cannot defend the doctrine.

    Votes: 2 3.4%
  • No, I deny the doctrine of the Trinity.

    Votes: 16 27.6%
  • I don't know if the Trinity is true or false.

    Votes: 3 5.2%

  • Total voters
    58

Noose

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2016
5,096
932
113
God the Father did become unique for us as Emmanuel at conception .. The Word become flesh by the Holy Ghost ..
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Jesus is not an angel but a son of David through the vessel Mary,
Most important Jesus is God by His kinds after their kinds law ''Son of God''
4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.
5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?
I don't agree maybe because i don't understand what you are saying.

A father does n't become a Father because they have become unique but because a son is born of them, and a son does not become a son because they have become unique but because they are born of the Father. Without the son, there's no Father and without the Father, there's no son.
 

Noose

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2016
5,096
932
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The comparison simply demonstrated how three of something represent a whole. Just as three separate and distinct notes function in harmony to form one chord, the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit are one God. The concept of a unified one is something we encounter routinely in everyday experience but for some strange reason, this concept seems to escape many people when we consider the nature of a unified God.
Now, if you could only demonstrate how three distinct persons are not distinct at all.
 

Noose

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2016
5,096
932
113
What makes you think they are not distinct?
Because i know Jesus is one person and one being by Himself; if He is God, then God must be one person, one being and not three persons in one- Jesus wasn't three persons.
 

oldhermit

Senior Member
Jul 28, 2012
9,145
616
113
70
Alabama
Because i know Jesus is one person and one being by Himself; if He is God, then God must be one person, one being and not three persons in one- Jesus wasn't three persons.
You are correct, Jesus is not three persons; But he is God.
 

oldhermit

Senior Member
Jul 28, 2012
9,145
616
113
70
Alabama
So the description of God should be one person, one being not three persons.
I think part of our problem in understanding the nature of God stems from our perception of language and our definition of terms. What do you think?
 

Noose

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2016
5,096
932
113
One Being, three Persons.
It doesn't work.

Jesus = God
Jesus = One person, one being
Therefore
God = One person, one being

If
God = 3 persons, one being

and
Jesus = One person, one being

Then

Jesus is not God
 

Noose

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2016
5,096
932
113
I think part of our problem in understanding the nature of God stems from our perception of language and our definition of terms. What do you think?
I think the biggest problem is trying to force a description to fit what God has said. If the bible was written in the same manner, including every other thing but excluding the parts that God says He is ONE, then we would be all saying that there are three Gods but because of this inclusion, some are forced to come up with impossibilities.
 
Oct 25, 2018
2,377
1,198
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Oct 25, 2018
2,377
1,198
113
It doesn't work.

Jesus = God
Jesus = One person, one being
Therefore
God = One person, one being

If
God = 3 persons, one being

and
Jesus = One person, one being

Then

Jesus is not God
Let’s cut to the chase. Is Jesus God?
 

Noose

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2016
5,096
932
113
Let’s cut to the chase. Is Jesus God?
Yes.
Is the Holy spirit God? Yes
Is the the Father God? Yes

But i believe these are authorities of God held by one person (Jesus) at some point.
Just like Isaiah said:

Isa 9:
6For to us a child is born,
to us a son is given,
and the government will be on his shoulders.
And he will be called
Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

It is this one person that has these authorities including:

Wonderful Counselor = Holy spirit
Everlasting Father = Father
Son = Son
 
Oct 25, 2018
2,377
1,198
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Yes.
Is the Holy spirit God? Yes
Is the the Father God? Yes

But i believe these are authorities of God held by one person (Jesus) at some point.
Just like Isaiah said:

Isa 9:
6For to us a child is born,
to us a son is given,
and the government will be on his shoulders.
And he will be called
Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

It is this one person that has these authorities including:

Wonderful Counselor = Holy spirit
Everlasting Father = Father
Son = Son
I admit that I don’t fully grasp this verse calling Him everlasting Father as I need to further study it. But clearly all three Persons are one God.

Got questions has a good answer to this...


Question: "What is the meaning of ‘Everlasting Father’ in Isaiah 9:6?"


Answer: “For to us a child is born, to us a son is given; and the government shall be upon his shoulder, and his name shall be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace” (Isaiah 9:6, ESV).


In context, this verse is proclaiming the redemption of Israel and the activities, titles, and blessings of the Messiah who is to rule the earth and usher in a reign of blessing and peace that will have no end. One of His titles is “Everlasting Father.”


The Hebrew phrase translated “Everlasting Father” could be translated literally “Father of Eternity.” For this reason, some have suggested that the title means that this coming Messiah is also the creator of everything: He is the father of time and eternity, the “architect of the ages.” While we know this to be true from the New Testament (John 1:1–3, Colossians 1:16–17), that is not the emphasis in Isaiah. In the Hebrew construction of the phrase, father is the primary noun, and everlasting (ESV, NIV, KJV) or eternal(NASB) is the term that describes His fatherhood. He is Father forever.


The Hebrew word translated “everlasting” has the idea of “in perpetuity” or “without end.” Indeed, the next verse says of the Messiah, “Of the greatness of his government and peace there will be no end” (Isaiah 9:7). The emphasis is forward looking, so “everlasting” is probably a better translation than “eternal,” which not only indicates “without end” but also “without beginning.” (Again, from the New Testament we may argue that the Messiah is without beginning, but that is not the emphasis of this term in Isaiah.)


So, as the Everlasting Father, the Messiah will be a father, and His fatherhood will be without end. Some have objected that this designation as father seems to confuse the roles within the Trinity, calling “Father” the one who is really “the Son.” Some in the Oneness movement use this verse as a proof text to show that Jesus really is the Father and that there is only a Unity, not a Trinity. In both cases, the interpreters are reading New Testament concerns back into the Old Testament. Neither Trinitarian nor anti-Trinitarian concerns are being discussed in Isaiah 9:6.


Many rulers in ancient times were considered “father of the country.” Americans who read this term might immediately think of George Washington who is called “the father of his country.” It was Washington’s determination and leadership that led to victory in the Revolutionary War and his support of a strong national government that led (at least in part) to ratification of the U.S. Constitution. Without Washington, the United States might not exist today, or it might exist with a far different form of government. However, if some of the interpretations discussed so far are guilty of reading New Testament theological concerns into Isaiah in an anachronistic fashion, using George Washington as an interpretive clue to the meaning of the phrase is also anachronistic. The most appropriate analogy is far more universal.



In ancient times, the “father of the nation” was viewed in much the same way as the father of a family. It was the father who was to protect and provide for his children. In the same way, this Child to be born will become a king who will be a father to the children of Israel—He will protect and provide for them. And His role as protector and provider will not be limited by aging or death. His role as father (protector and provider) will continue in perpetuity. Just how this will come about is not revealed in Isaiah’s prophecy. The full identity of the Messiah—that He is God in the flesh, the second Person of the Trinity who would protect and provide for His people by His death and resurrection on their behalf; and that Gentiles could also be grafted into the family of Israel—may be hinted at in Isaiah, but God’s people would have to wait almost 700 years to see the Messiah revealed in the “fullness of time” (see Galatians 4:4).
 

Noose

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2016
5,096
932
113
I admit that I don’t fully grasp this verse calling Him everlasting Father as I need to further study it. But clearly all three Persons are one God.

Got questions has a good answer to this...


Question: "What is the meaning of ‘Everlasting Father’ in Isaiah 9:6?"


Answer: “For to us a child is born, to us a son is given; and the government shall be upon his shoulder, and his name shall be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace” (Isaiah 9:6, ESV).


In context, this verse is proclaiming the redemption of Israel and the activities, titles, and blessings of the Messiah who is to rule the earth and usher in a reign of blessing and peace that will have no end. One of His titles is “Everlasting Father.”


The Hebrew phrase translated “Everlasting Father” could be translated literally “Father of Eternity.” For this reason, some have suggested that the title means that this coming Messiah is also the creator of everything: He is the father of time and eternity, the “architect of the ages.” While we know this to be true from the New Testament (John 1:1–3, Colossians 1:16–17), that is not the emphasis in Isaiah. In the Hebrew construction of the phrase, father is the primary noun, and everlasting (ESV, NIV, KJV) or eternal(NASB) is the term that describes His fatherhood. He is Father forever.


The Hebrew word translated “everlasting” has the idea of “in perpetuity” or “without end.” Indeed, the next verse says of the Messiah, “Of the greatness of his government and peace there will be no end” (Isaiah 9:7). The emphasis is forward looking, so “everlasting” is probably a better translation than “eternal,” which not only indicates “without end” but also “without beginning.” (Again, from the New Testament we may argue that the Messiah is without beginning, but that is not the emphasis of this term in Isaiah.)


So, as the Everlasting Father, the Messiah will be a father, and His fatherhood will be without end. Some have objected that this designation as father seems to confuse the roles within the Trinity, calling “Father” the one who is really “the Son.” Some in the Oneness movement use this verse as a proof text to show that Jesus really is the Father and that there is only a Unity, not a Trinity. In both cases, the interpreters are reading New Testament concerns back into the Old Testament. Neither Trinitarian nor anti-Trinitarian concerns are being discussed in Isaiah 9:6.


Many rulers in ancient times were considered “father of the country.” Americans who read this term might immediately think of George Washington who is called “the father of his country.” It was Washington’s determination and leadership that led to victory in the Revolutionary War and his support of a strong national government that led (at least in part) to ratification of the U.S. Constitution. Without Washington, the United States might not exist today, or it might exist with a far different form of government. However, if some of the interpretations discussed so far are guilty of reading New Testament theological concerns into Isaiah in an anachronistic fashion, using George Washington as an interpretive clue to the meaning of the phrase is also anachronistic. The most appropriate analogy is far more universal.



In ancient times, the “father of the nation” was viewed in much the same way as the father of a family. It was the father who was to protect and provide for his children. In the same way, this Child to be born will become a king who will be a father to the children of Israel—He will protect and provide for them. And His role as protector and provider will not be limited by aging or death. His role as father (protector and provider) will continue in perpetuity. Just how this will come about is not revealed in Isaiah’s prophecy. The full identity of the Messiah—that He is God in the flesh, the second Person of the Trinity who would protect and provide for His people by His death and resurrection on their behalf; and that Gentiles could also be grafted into the family of Israel—may be hinted at in Isaiah, but God’s people would have to wait almost 700 years to see the Messiah revealed in the “fullness of time” (see Galatians 4:4).
You are trying to deflect the meaning through these guyz (Got Questions).

1. The child shall also be called wonderful counselor which simply means the child shall be called the Holy spirit. The Holy spirit is the supreme and wonderful counselor . Now, don't just focus on the Father part and fail to address this part.

2. God is not just God but He is a God to a people. It is for this reason and no other reason that God is a Father. IOW, He is Father because He is God to His people and not because He reigns in some age to come.

Jer 32:38They will be My people, and I will be their God.

Rev 21:…7The one who overcomes will inherit all things, and I will be his God, and he will be My son.
 

oyster67

Senior Member
May 24, 2014
11,887
8,705
113
Are you a Trinitarian, and if so, can you defend the doctrine from Scripture?
I am definitely a Trinitarian, and I can definitely defend the doctrine.

Perhaps you should describe to us what your "Doctrine of the Trinintarian" is before you ask us to defend you and it.

The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are simple Biblical facts. I have no idea what your personal ideas about them are.
 

bojack

Well-known member
Dec 16, 2019
2,309
1,006
113
I don't agree maybe because i don't understand what you are saying.

A father does n't become a Father because they have become unique but because a son is born of them, and a son does not become a son because they have become unique but because they are born of the Father. Without the son, there's no Father and without the Father, there's no son.
God became flesh for us Bro .. That we could know Him . And we still in this life only have a small clue .. God become a man for us so we could have a glimpse and path .. What man could offer himself besides God in the flesh .. We'd just blow it off and make him an idol to put on our idol shelf, a non God man like a pope or somebody .. How would anyone but God know how to obey, act and administer .. I don't understand it in the natural except to know who I ain't, or any other like you and I , yet God the Son is Worthy .. You don't have to understand it, just don't close the door and preach against it ... There's only one name given ..
24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.
25 For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.
 
Oct 25, 2018
2,377
1,198
113
You are trying to deflect the meaning through these guyz (Got Questions).

1. The child shall also be called wonderful counselor which simply means the child shall be called the Holy spirit. The Holy spirit is the supreme and wonderful counselor . Now, don't just focus on the Father part and fail to address this part.

2. God is not just God but He is a God to a people. It is for this reason and no other reason that God is a Father. IOW, He is Father because He is God to His people and not because He reigns in some age to come.

Jer 32:38They will be My people, and I will be their God.

Rev 21:…7The one who overcomes will inherit all things, and I will be his God, and he will be My son.
These guyz? Wow, what a low view to post something like this when referring to God. :(