Are You Believing a Heresy? You Might According to a New Study

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PyongPing

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#81
24 Elders are the Heavenly council/Ancients already in Heaven even before the earth was created, they are never given crowns (they already had them), and they minister in Heaven. They are the Leaders and representation of all the unfallen worlds, they are not human. Details upon request.
 

PyongPing

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Oct 9, 2018
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#82
Your KJV says otherwise, in Mark 9:42-48
The phrase, “their worm dieth not” is found in the following verses of the Gospel of Mark, in the New Testament [KJB]:

Mark 9:44 KJB - Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.​
Mark 9:46 KJB - Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.​
Mark 9:48 KJB - Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.​

Jesus, in the Gospel of Mark in the NT, is quoting from the OT, in the prophet Isaiah:

Isaiah 66:24 KJB - And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.​

How do we then understand the phrase, “their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched”?

In order to understand the phrase, “their worm dieth not”, etc., we need to read them in their immediate contexts, prayerfully, first, and compare each phrase with the surrounding verses and then also compare it to the whole of the Bible [as per Genesis 40:8; Isaiah 28:10,13; 1 Corinthians 2:3 KJB] in the same subject, asking Jesus what they mean; and He, by the Holy Spirit, will explain them.

The parallel passages of Mark 9:44,46,48 KJB are:

Mark 9:43 KJB - And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:​
Mark 9:45 KJB - And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:​
Mark 9:47 KJB - And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:​

First of all, the verses speak of “Where ...”, in reference to a specific location, as seen in the previous verses, wherein it names the place, “go into hell”, “cast into hell”, “hellfire”.

Therefore, notice that Jesus, while quoting from Isaiah 66:24 KJB, repeats Himself several times, defining for us, so that we understand what He is saying:

Mark 9:43 KJB - And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:​
Mark 9:44 KJB - Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.​
Mark 9:45 KJB - And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:​
Mark 9:46 KJB - Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.​
Mark 9:47 KJB - And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:​
Mark 9:48 KJB - Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.​

Please also notice the contrast between:

[1] “enter into life” [being Eternal Life, Heaven and the Kingdom of God], and,​
[2] “go into [or 'cast into'] hell” [being eternal death, wherein there is no resurrection, nor life ever again, but only a dying by fire until one is forever dead and gone].​

Please also notice, Mark 9:49-50 KJB, in that all [everyone, good or evil] will be salted with “fire” [1 Corinthians 3:10-17 KJB; either by the [1] Holy Ghost [Matthew 3:11; Luke 3:16 KJB], or [2] Hellfire]:

Mark 9:49 KJB - For every one shall be salted with fire, and every sacrifice shall be salted with salt.​
Mark 9:50 KJB - Salt is good: but if the salt have lost his saltness, wherewith will ye season it? Have salt in yourselves, and have peace one with another.​

Compare these to:

Matthew 5:13 KJB - Ye are the salt of the earth: but if the salt have lost his savour, wherewith shall it be salted? it is thenceforth good for nothing, but to be cast out, and to be trodden under foot of men.​

Compare “cast out”, and “trodden under foot of men” to:​
Isaiah 66:24 KJB - And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.​
Malachi 4:1 KJB - For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.​
Malachi 4:2 KJB - But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.​
Malachi 4:3 KJB - And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts.​

Luke 14:34 KJB - Salt is good: but if the salt have lost his savour, wherewith shall it be seasoned?​
Luke 14:35 KJB - It is neither fit for the land, nor yet for the dunghill; but men cast it out. He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.​
 

PyongPing

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#83
Your KJV says otherwise, in Mark 9:42-48
Therefore the “worm dieth not”, deals with “hell” portion, which is also tied to “the fire is not quenched”, or the “[hell] fire” portion, which will take place at the end of the final phase of Judgment - the Great White Throne Judgment of Revelation 20:11-15 KJB.

Side note, for those who enjoy looking into the Koine Greek of some portion of text [not myself particularly, as scripture [KJB] is to be defined “line upon line”, not Hebrew upon Hebrew, nor Greek upon Greek, etc.]

G4663

Koine Greek: σκώληξ
Transliterated: skōlēx

Translated into King James Bible English, as:

“worm”, 3x, Mark 9:44,46,48 KJB​

See also the (so-called) LXX [Septuagint, actually the gnostic Origen's Greek translation of the OT]:

Exodus 16:20,24; Deuteronomy 28:39; Job 2:9, 7:5, 25:6; Psalms 22:6 [21:7]; Proverbs 12:4, 25:20 [32:20]; Isaiah 14:11, 66:24; Jonah 4:7​

Side note, the related Koine Greek word:

G4662

Koine Greek: σκωληκόβρωτος
Transliterated: skōlēkobrōtos

Translated into King James Bible English, as:
“eaten”, 1x, Acts 12:23 KJB​
“worms”, 1x, Acts 12:23 KJB​

If we do a search throughout the Bible [KJB] for “worm” or “worms”, we see that it has several definitions:

“worm”, “worms”:

[1] a creature, a moth larva:

Isaiah 51:8 KJB - For the moth shall eat them up like a garment, and the worm shall eat them like wool: but my righteousness shall be for ever, and my salvation from generation to generation.​

[2] a creature, an earthworm, a maggot, a 'vermes', an invertebrate [no-back bone], that eat, or live in earth, decaying matter, and plants [worms are the grave 'clothes' a person wears in decaying and death]:

Exodus 16:20 KJB - Notwithstanding they hearkened not unto Moses; but some of them left of it until the morning, and it bred worms, and stank: and Moses was wroth with them.​
Exodus 16:24 KJB - And they laid it up till the morning, as Moses bade: and it did not stink, neither was there any worm therein.​
Deuteronomy 28:39 KJB - Thou shalt plant vineyards, and dress them, but shalt neither drink of the wine, nor gather the grapes; for the worms shall eat them.​
Job 7:5 KJB - My flesh is clothed with worms and clods of dust; my skin is broken, and become loathsome.​
Job 19:26 KJB - And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God:​
Job 21:26 KJB - They shall lie down alike in the dust, and the worms shall cover them.​
Job 24:20 KJB - The womb shall forget him; the worm shall feed sweetly on him; he shall be no more remembered; and wickedness shall be broken as a tree.​
Isaiah 14:11 KJB - Thy pomp is brought down to the grave, and the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee.​
Jonah 4:7 KJB - But God prepared a worm when the morning rose the next day, and it smote the gourd that it withered.​
Micah 7:17 KJB - They shall lick the dust like a serpent, they shall move out of their holes like worms of the earth: they shall be afraid of the LORD our God, and shall fear because of thee.​
Acts 12:23 KJB - And immediately the angel of the Lord smote him, because he gave not God the glory: and he was eaten of worms, and gave up the ghost.​
[3] a “despised” persons life, a the life of a person who is “a reproach of men”, a “Jacob”:

Job 25:6 KJB - How much less man, that is a worm? and the son of man, which is a worm?​
Psalms 22:6 KJB - But I am a worm, and no man; a reproach of men, and despised of the people.​
Side note: Psalms 22 KJB, is about Christ Jesus [Psalms 22:1; Matthew 27:46; Mark 15:34 KJB], the “propitiation” [Romans 3:5; 1 John 2:2, 4:10 KJB], who was made to be “sin for us” [2 Corinthians 5:21 KJB], and took our sins and the “wrath of God” [Romans 1:18 KJB] upon Himself.​
Compare also Psalms 22:6 KJB to Daniel 12:2 KJB, in speaking of the wicked:
Daniel 12:2 KJB - And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame [and] everlasting contempt.​
Isaiah 41:14 KJB - Fear not, thou worm Jacob, and ye men of Israel; I will help thee, saith the LORD, and thy redeemer, the Holy One of Israel.​
Isaiah 66:24 KJB - And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.​
Micah 7:17 KJB - They shall lick the dust like a serpent, they shall move out of their holes like worms of the earth: they shall be afraid of the LORD our God, and shall fear because of thee.​
Mark 9:44 KJB - Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.​
Mark 9:46 KJB - Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.​
Mark 9:48 KJB - Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.​

[4] also “corruption” and grave [clothes, worms cover the body], rotting [flesh], decay and despising:

Exodus 16:20 KJB - Notwithstanding they hearkened not unto Moses; but some of them left of it until the morning, and it bred worms, and stank: and Moses was wroth with them.​
Exodus 16:24 KJB - And they laid it up till the morning, as Moses bade: and it did not stink, neither was there any worm therein.​
Side note, Exodus 16 KJB, deals with “the manna”, a type of the flesh, of either the sinner, or of the obedient Christ Jesus, see John 6:32, 6:51-53 KJB.
Job 7:5 KJB - My flesh is clothed with worms and clods of dust; my skin is broken, and become loathsome.​
Job 17:14 KJB - I have said to corruption, Thou art my father: to the worm, Thou art my mother, and my sister.​
Job 19:26 KJB - And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God:​
Job 21:26 KJB - They shall lie down alike in the dust, and the worms shall cover them.​
 

PyongPing

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#84
Your KJV says otherwise, in Mark 9:42-48
So then, what does “their worm dieth not” mean?

Notice that the phrase “their worm” is singular and possessive.

It means that the person [lost*] that is cast into the hell[fire] will continue to exist [“dieth not”] until they, in all portions [“soul and body”; Matthew 10:28 KJB] are consumed totally by that hellfire [which fire will “not be quenched” [verb, 'to quench' put out] by anyone or any means]] into ashes [carbon].
Matthew 10:28 KJB - And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.​

[lost*, the one who did not overcome sin by the indwelling of Christ Jesus by the Holy Spirit, and did not receive the new name in the white stone, but remained instead a “Jacob” [a supplanter, overcome by sin], a “despised” person, a “reproach of men”, and “no man” [Psalms 22:6 KJB] [ie., not like obedient Christ Jesus, “the man” [1 Timothy 2:5 KJB], the “second” [1 Corinthians 15:47 KJB] and “last Adam” [1 Corinthians 15:45 KJB]], filled with “shame” and to have “everlasting contempt” [Daniel 12:2 KJB] upon them]​
Let us consider how the Bible uses the word “quench[ed]”:​

2 Samuel 14:7 KJB - And, behold, the whole family is risen against thine handmaid, and they said, Deliver him that smote his brother, that we may kill him, for the life of his brother whom he slew; and we will destroy the heir also: and so they shall quench my coal which is left, and shall not leave to my husband neither name nor remainder upon the earth.​
2 Samuel 21:17 KJB - But Abishai the son of Zeruiah succoured him, and smote the Philistine, and killed him. Then the men of David sware unto him, saying, Thou shalt go no more out with us to battle, that thou quench not the light of Israel.​
Job 18:5 KJB - Yea, the light of the wicked shall be put out, and the spark of his fire shall not shine.​
Psalms 104:11 KJB - They give drink to every beast of the field: the wild asses quench their thirst.​
Song of Solomon 8:7 KJB - Many waters cannot quench love, neither can the floods drown it: if a man would give all the substance of his house for love, it would utterly be contemned.​
Isaiah 1:31 KJB - And the strong shall be as tow, and the maker of it as a spark, and they shall both burn together, and none shall quench them.​
Isaiah 1:30 KJB - For ye shall be as an oak whose leaf fadeth, and as a garden that hath no water.​
Isaiah 42:3 KJB - A bruised reed shall he not break, and the smoking flax shall he not quench: he shall bring forth judgment unto truth.​
Jeremiah 4:4 KJB - Circumcise yourselves to the LORD, and take away the foreskins of your heart, ye men of Judah and inhabitants of Jerusalem: lest my fury come forth like fire, and burn that none can quench it, because of the evil of your doings.​
Jeremiah 21:12 KJB - O house of David, thus saith the LORD; Execute judgment in the morning, and deliver him that is spoiled out of the hand of the oppressor, lest my fury go out like fire, and burn that none can quench it, because of the evil of your doings.​
Amos 5:6 KJB - Seek the LORD, and ye shall live; lest he break out like fire in the house of Joseph, and devour it, and there be none to quench it in Bethel.​
Matthew 12:20 KJB - A bruised reed shall he not break, and smoking flax shall he not quench, till he send forth judgment unto victory.​
Ephesians 6:16 KJB - Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked.​
1 Thessalonians 5:19 KJB - Quench not the Spirit.​
Numbers 11:2 KJB - And the people cried unto Moses; and when Moses prayed unto the LORD, the fire was quenched.​
2 Kings 22:17 KJB - Because they have forsaken me, and have burned incense unto other gods, that they might provoke me to anger with all the works of their hands; therefore my wrath shall be kindled against this place, and shall not be quenched.​
2 Chronicles 34:25 KJB - Because they have forsaken me, and have burned incense unto other gods, that they might provoke me to anger with all the works of their hands; therefore my wrath shall be poured out upon this place, and shall not be quenched.​
Psalms 118:12 KJB - They compassed me about like bees; they are quenched as the fire of thorns: for in the name of the LORD I will destroy them.​
Isaiah 34:10 KJB - It shall not be quenched night nor day; the smoke thereof shall go up for ever: from generation to generation it shall lie waste; none shall pass through it for ever and ever.​
Isaiah 43:17 KJB - Which bringeth forth the chariot and horse, the army and the power; they shall lie down together, they shall not rise: they are extinct, they are quenched as tow.​
Isaiah 66:24 KJB - And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.​
Jeremiah 7:20 KJB - Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, mine anger and my fury shall be poured out upon this place, upon man, and upon beast, and upon the trees of the field, and upon the fruit of the ground; and it shall burn, and shall not be quenched.​
Jeremiah 17:27 KJB - But if ye will not hearken unto me to hallow the sabbath day, and not to bear a burden, even entering in at the gates of Jerusalem on the sabbath day; then will I kindle a fire in the gates thereof, and it shall devour the palaces of Jerusalem, and it shall not be quenched.​
Ezekiel 20:47 KJB - And say to the forest of the south, Hear the word of the LORD; Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will kindle a fire in thee, and it shall devour every green tree in thee, and every dry tree: the flaming flame shall not be quenched, and all faces from the south to the north shall be burned therein.​
Ezekiel 20:48 KJB - And all flesh shall see that I the LORD have kindled it: it shall not be quenched.​

Side note: the wrath of God, and the fire that He sent against Jerusalem, was not “quenched” [not put out by anyone or anything], but burned, until it consumed the city unto ashes and rubble, and only smoke was left which ascended upward into the heavens and could be seen from far, which is a type unto the end-time all consuming hellfire:​

Jeremiah 39:8 KJB - And the Chaldeans burned the king's house, and the houses of the people, with fire, and brake down the walls of Jerusalem.​
Jeremiah 52:13 KJB - And burned the house of the LORD, and the king's house; and all the houses of Jerusalem, and all the houses of the great men, burned he with fire:​
2 Kings 25:9 KJB - And he burnt the house of the LORD, and the king's house, and all the houses of Jerusalem, and every great man's house burnt he with fire.​
2 Chronicles 36:19 KJB - And they burnt the house of God, and brake down the wall of Jerusalem, and burnt all the palaces thereof with fire, and destroyed all the goodly vessels thereof.​
Amos 2:5 KJB - But I will send a fire upon Judah, and it shall devour the palaces of Jerusalem.​

Mark 9:43 KJB - And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:​
Mark 9:44 KJB - Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.​
Mark 9:45 KJB - And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:​
Mark 9:46 KJB - Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.​
Mark 9:48 KJB - Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.​
Hebrews 11:34 KJB - Quenched the violence of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, out of weakness were made strong, waxed valiant in fight, turned to flight the armies of the aliens.​

Side note: For more on the all consuming Fire, that the wicked will Perish [John 3:16 KJB] ask for those texts and definitions.
 

Quantrill

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Sep 20, 2018
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#85
24 Elders are the Heavenly council/Ancients already in Heaven even before the earth was created, they are never given crowns (they already had them), and they minister in Heaven. They are the Leaders and representation of all the unfallen worlds, they are not human. Details upon request.
Not so. They were redeemed. (Rev. 5:9).

Quantrill
 

PyongPing

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#86
Your KJV says otherwise, in Mark 9:42-48
The Scriptural [KJB] Fire, burns up the wicked, it doesn't ever preserve the wicked to be eternally tormented:

Additionally, it is the Righteous who will eternally dwell with God, who is “a Spirit” [John 4:24 KJB], and “the Holy Spirit” the fullness of “fire” [Acts 2:3; Revelation 1:4; 4:5 KJB], who “baptize/s” with “fire” [Matthew 3:11; Mark 9:49; Luke 3:16 KJB], thus we will dwell with “everlasting burnings” [Isaiah 33:14 KJB], for God is a “consuming fire” [to sin and of “Love”] [Deuteronomy 4:24, 9:3; Hebrews 12:29; 1 John 4:8,16 KJB] and a “fire goeth before Him” [Psalms 97:3 KJB] which “shall devour before Him” [Psalms 50:3 KJB] and “he burned against Jacob like a flaming fire” [Lamentations 2:3 KJB], and for those whom He loves He is a “wall of fire round about” [Zechariah 2:5 KJB] and His “ministers a flame of fire” [Psalms 104:4; Hebrews 1:7 KJB] and His “tongue as a devouring fire” [Isaiah 30:7 KJB] His speech “fire” [2 Samuel 22:9; Psalms 18:8; Jeremiah 20:9; Acts 2:3; 2 Thessalonians 2:8 KJB], His “eyes … as a flame of fire” [Revelation 1:14, 2:18, 19:12 KJB], His “face as the sun” and His “feet a pillar of fire” [Matthew 17:2; 2 Corinthians 4:6; Revelation 1:15, 2:18, 10:1 KJB], for He is a “refiners fire” [Malachi 3:2 KJB] having a “throne of fire” [Psalms 89:36; Daniel 7:9; Ezekiel 1:26-28; Revelation 4:5 KJB], His Ten Commandments a “Fiery Law” [Deuteronomy 33:2; Ezekiel 28:14,16 KJB] and it is they who have the victory over sin who stand upon the sea of glass mingled with fire [Revelation 15:2 KJB], and will be as the burning bush which was not consumed [Exodus 3:3 KJB], for He is “Light”, even the Light of all.

However, the wicked are never immortal, for they are to be burnt up into smoke and ashes at the meeting out of Judgment, they are perished forever; Job 20:26,29, 31:2-3; Psalms 7:9, 9:17, 11:6, 21:9, 37:10, 37:20, 37:28,38, 68:2, 69:28, 75:8,10, 92:7,9, 104:35, 106:18, 112:10, 145:20; Proverbs 2:22, 10:25,28,30, 12:7, 13:9, 14:11, 24:20; Ezekiel 18:4, 18:20; Isaiah 13:9, 66:17,24; Nahum 1:10; Obadiah 1:16; Zephaniah 1:2-3; Matthew 10:28; John 3:16; Romans 6:23; Hebrews 6:8; James 1:15; 2 Peter 3:10; Revelation 20:9, 21:4 KJB.
 

Lillywolf

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Aug 29, 2018
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#88
The Bible defines "sin" -

1Jn 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.​

There is no other definition of sin. That is the foundational definition.

You refer to this:

Rom_8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:​

But mistake what it says. Sin in Romans 8:3 is still defined by 1 John 3:4. It (sin, which is transsgression of God's Law) was condemned in the flesh (of Jesus, who came in the likeness of sinful flesh). The perfect Life of Jesus, who did no sin, condemns "sin" (1 John 3:4), Why?, because Jesus was victorious in that sinful flesh and chose not to sin (1 John 3:4). Jesus took our sins upon Himself, and thus we may be forgiven our sin/s, since He paid the penalty to redeem.
I've been on other forums where someone claims Jesus chose not to sin.
Jesus had no sin because he was God in flesh. Perfect and without sin because he was not born as humans are born so as to have a sinful nature. He was begotten, not created through the male female reproductive process.

Jesus was sinless. He did not choose not to sin. To make such a claim, a false one, is to state Jesus could have sinned if he wished. Jesus as The Word that became flesh.
 

Quantrill

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Sep 20, 2018
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#89
No, they have the "prayers of the saints" who are redeemed. I told you they are ministering. Angels carry prayer to Heaven. Examples upon request.
No. (Rev. 5:9) is clear that the ones who sang a new song were the ones that recognized that Jesus was worthy to take the book. Those who were praying would have not had such first hand knowledge.

(Rev. 5:9) "And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by the blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation."

Quantrill
 

Lillywolf

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Aug 29, 2018
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#90
The Scriptural [KJB] Fire, burns up the wicked, it doesn't ever preserve the wicked to be eternally tormented:

Additionally, it is the Righteous who will eternally dwell with God, who is “a Spirit” [John 4:24 KJB], and “the Holy Spirit” the fullness of “fire” [Acts 2:3; Revelation 1:4; 4:5 KJB], who “baptize/s” with “fire” [Matthew 3:11; Mark 9:49; Luke 3:16 KJB], thus we will dwell with “everlasting burnings” [Isaiah 33:14 KJB], for God is a “consuming fire” [to sin and of “Love”] [Deuteronomy 4:24, 9:3; Hebrews 12:29; 1 John 4:8,16 KJB] and a “fire goeth before Him” [Psalms 97:3 KJB] which “shall devour before Him” [Psalms 50:3 KJB] and “he burned against Jacob like a flaming fire” [Lamentations 2:3 KJB], and for those whom He loves He is a “wall of fire round about” [Zechariah 2:5 KJB] and His “ministers a flame of fire” [Psalms 104:4; Hebrews 1:7 KJB] and His “tongue as a devouring fire” [Isaiah 30:7 KJB] His speech “fire” [2 Samuel 22:9; Psalms 18:8; Jeremiah 20:9; Acts 2:3; 2 Thessalonians 2:8 KJB], His “eyes … as a flame of fire” [Revelation 1:14, 2:18, 19:12 KJB], His “face as the sun” and His “feet a pillar of fire” [Matthew 17:2; 2 Corinthians 4:6; Revelation 1:15, 2:18, 10:1 KJB], for He is a “refiners fire” [Malachi 3:2 KJB] having a “throne of fire” [Psalms 89:36; Daniel 7:9; Ezekiel 1:26-28; Revelation 4:5 KJB], His Ten Commandments a “Fiery Law” [Deuteronomy 33:2; Ezekiel 28:14,16 KJB] and it is they who have the victory over sin who stand upon the sea of glass mingled with fire [Revelation 15:2 KJB], and will be as the burning bush which was not consumed [Exodus 3:3 KJB], for He is “Light”, even the Light of all.

However, the wicked are never immortal, for they are to be burnt up into smoke and ashes at the meeting out of Judgment, they are perished forever; Job 20:26,29, 31:2-3; Psalms 7:9, 9:17, 11:6, 21:9, 37:10, 37:20, 37:28,38, 68:2, 69:28, 75:8,10, 92:7,9, 104:35, 106:18, 112:10, 145:20; Proverbs 2:22, 10:25,28,30, 12:7, 13:9, 14:11, 24:20; Ezekiel 18:4, 18:20; Isaiah 13:9, 66:17,24; Nahum 1:10; Obadiah 1:16; Zephaniah 1:2-3; Matthew 10:28; John 3:16; Romans 6:23; Hebrews 6:8; James 1:15; 2 Peter 3:10; Revelation 20:9, 21:4 KJB.
I don't think you realize your red font opinion, "However, the wicked are never immortal, for they are to be burnt up into smoke and ashes at the meeting out of Judgment, they are perished forever ", contradicts itself. If the wicked are not immortal then they cannot perish forever.
 

PyongPing

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#91
Your KJV says otherwise, in Mark 9:42-48
Carcases:

Let's look at this some more, and look at the word "carcases" as found in Isaiah 66:24 KJB, and see it in immediate context, and as used throughout:
Isaiah 66:6 KJB - A voice of noise from the city, a voice from the temple, a voice of the LORD that rendereth recompence to his enemies.​
Isaiah 66:15 KJB - For, behold, the LORD will come with fire, and with his chariots like a whirlwind, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire.​
Isaiah 66:16 KJB - For by fire and by his sword will the LORD plead with all flesh: and the slain of the LORD shall be many.​
Isaiah 66:17 KJB - They that sanctify themselves, and purify themselves in the gardens behind one tree in the midst, eating swine's flesh, and the abomination, and the mouse, shall be consumed together, saith the LORD.​

His "chariots" are all the hosts of angels, for they are flames of fire [see 2 Kings 2:11, 6:17, 7:6, 13:14; Psalms 68:17, 104:4; Joel 2:3,5; Hebrews 1:7 KJB], and in such glory, the very heavens and earth itself will melt at the presence of Jesus Christ, in His glory, His Father's glory and the glory of all the Holy Angels [2nd Advent, before/at the beginning of 1,000 years], and in the 3rd Advent [after/at the end of 1,000 years], all the gloriously transfigured righteous also are present.

This is like unto what Jeremiah said:

Jeremiah 16:4 KJB - They shall die of grievous deaths; they shall not be lamented; neither shall they be buried; but they shall be as dung upon the face of the earth: and they shall be consumed by the sword, and by famine; and their carcases shall be meat for the fowls of heaven, and for the beasts of the earth.​

The word Hebrew word [H6297] used in Isaiah is translated thus:

פּגר
peger


Total KJB Occurrences: 28

carcases, 13
Genesis 15:11; Leviticus 26:30 (2); Numbers 14:29,32-33 (2); 1 Samuel 17:46; Isaiah 34:3, 66:24; Ezekiel 6:5, 43:7,9; Nahum 3:3​

bodies, 6
2 Chronicles 20:24-25 (2); Jeremiah 31:40, 33:5, 41:9; Amos 8:3​

dead, 6
2 Chronicles 20:24-25 (2); Jeremiah 31:40, 33:5, 41:9; Amos 8:3​

corpses, 2
2 Kings 19:35; Isaiah 37:36​

carcase, 1
Isaiah 14:19​

Here is how the bible uses the word English word "carcases", just in Isaiah, it is a dead person [lifeless person, a dead body, see Ezekiel 6:5; Nahum 3:3 KJB, etc]:

Isaiah 5:25 KJB - Therefore is the anger of the LORD kindled against his people, and he hath stretched forth his hand against them, and hath smitten them: and the hills did tremble, and their carcases were torn in the midst of the streets. For all this his anger is not turned away, but his hand is stretched out still.​
Isaiah 34:3 KJB - Their slain also shall be cast out, and their stink shall come up out of their carcases, and the mountains shall be melted with their blood.​
Isaiah 66:24 KJB - And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.​
Here is how the bible uses the word English word "carcases", throughout the scripture [KJB], it is a dead person [lifeless person, a dead body, see Ezekiel 6:5, Nahum 3:3 KJB, etc]:

Genesis 15:11 KJB - And when the fowls came down upon the carcases, Abram drove them away.​
Leviticus 11:11 KJB - They shall be even an abomination unto you; ye shall not eat of their flesh, but ye shall have their carcases in abomination.​
Leviticus 11:26 KJB - The carcases of every beast which divideth the hoof, and is not clovenfooted, nor cheweth the cud, are unclean unto you: every one that toucheth them shall be unclean.​
Leviticus 26:30 KJB - And I will destroy your high places, and cut down your images, and cast your carcases upon the carcases of your idols, and my soul shall abhor you.​
Numbers 14:29 KJB - Your carcases shall fall in this wilderness; and all that were numbered of you, according to your whole number, from twenty years old and upward, which have murmured against me,​
Numbers 14:32 KJB - But as for you, your carcases, they shall fall in this wilderness.​
Numbers 14:33 KJB - And your children shall wander in the wilderness forty years, and bear your whoredoms, until your carcases be wasted in the wilderness.​
1 Samuel 17:46 KJB - This day will the LORD deliver thee into mine hand; and I will smite thee, and take thine head from thee; and I will give the carcases of the host of the Philistines this day unto the fowls of the air, and to the wild beasts of the earth; that all the earth may know that there is a God in Israel.​
Jeremiah 7:33 KJB - And the carcases of this people shall be meat for the fowls of the heaven, and for the beasts of the earth; and none shall fray them away.​
Jeremiah 9:22 KJB - Speak, Thus saith the LORD, Even the carcases of men shall fall as dung upon the open field, and as the handful after the harvestman, and none shall gather them.​
Jeremiah 16:4 KJB - They shall die of grievous deaths; they shall not be lamented; neither shall they be buried; but they shall be as dung upon the face of the earth: and they shall be consumed by the sword, and by famine; and their carcases shall be meat for the fowls of heaven, and for the beasts of the earth.​
Jeremiah 16:18 KJB - And first I will recompense their iniquity and their sin double; because they have defiled my land, they have filled mine inheritance with the carcases of their detestable and abominable things.​
Jeremiah 19:7 KJB - And I will make void the counsel of Judah and Jerusalem in this place; and I will cause them to fall by the sword before their enemies, and by the hands of them that seek their lives: and their carcases will I give to be meat for the fowls of the heaven, and for the beasts of the earth.​
Ezekiel 6:5 KJB - And I will lay the dead carcases of the children of Israel before their idols; and I will scatter your bones round about your altars.​
Ezekiel 43:7 KJB - And he said unto me, Son of man, the place of my throne, and the place of the soles of my feet, where I will dwell in the midst of the children of Israel for ever, and my holy name, shall the house of Israel no more defile, neither they, nor their kings, by their whoredom, nor by the carcases of their kings in their high places.​
Ezekiel 43:9 KJB - Now let them put away their whoredom, and the carcases of their kings, far from me, and I will dwell in the midst of them for ever.​
Nahum 3:3 KJB - The horseman lifteth up both the bright sword and the glittering spear: and there is a multitude of slain, and a great number of carcases; and there is none end of their corpses; they stumble upon their corpses:​
Hebrews 3:17 KJB - But with whom was he grieved forty years? was it not with them that had sinned, whose carcases fell in the wilderness?​
 

PyongPing

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#92
Your KJV says otherwise, in Mark 9:42-48
Here is how the bible uses the word English word "carcase", throughout the scripture [KJB], it is a dead person [lifeless person, see Ezekiel 6:5, Nahum 3:3 KJB, etc]:

Leviticus 5:2 KJB - Or if a soul touch any unclean thing, whether it be a carcase of an unclean beast, or a carcase of unclean cattle, or the carcase of unclean creeping things, and if it be hidden from him; he also shall be unclean, and guilty.​
Leviticus 11:8 KJB - Of their flesh shall ye not eat, and their carcase shall ye not touch; they are unclean to you.​
Leviticus 11:24 KJB - And for these ye shall be unclean: whosoever toucheth the carcase of them shall be unclean until the even.​
Leviticus 11:25 KJB - And whosoever beareth ought of the carcase of them shall wash his clothes, and be unclean until the even.​
Leviticus 11:27 KJB - And whatsoever goeth upon his paws, among all manner of beasts that go on all four, those are unclean unto you: whoso toucheth their carcase shall be unclean until the even.​
Leviticus 11:28 KJB - And he that beareth the carcase of them shall wash his clothes, and be unclean until the even: they are unclean unto you.​
Leviticus 11:35 KJB - And every thing whereupon any part of their carcase falleth shall be unclean; whether it be oven, or ranges for pots, they shall be broken down: for they are unclean, and shall be unclean unto you.​
Leviticus 11:36 KJB - Nevertheless a fountain or pit, wherein there is plenty of water, shall be clean: but that which toucheth their carcase shall be unclean.​
Leviticus 11:37 KJB - And if any part of their carcase fall upon any sowing seed which is to be sown, it shall be clean.​
Leviticus 11:38 KJB - But if any water be put upon the seed, and any part of their carcase fall thereon, it shall be unclean unto you.​
Leviticus 11:39 KJB - And if any beast, of which ye may eat, die; he that toucheth the carcase thereof shall be unclean until the even.​
Leviticus 11:40 KJB - And he that eateth of the carcase of it shall wash his clothes, and be unclean until the even: he also that beareth the carcase of it shall wash his clothes, and be unclean until the even.​
Deuteronomy 14:8 KJB - And the swine, because it divideth the hoof, yet cheweth not the cud, it is unclean unto you: ye shall not eat of their flesh, nor touch their dead carcase.​
Deuteronomy 28:26 KJB - And thy carcase shall be meat unto all fowls of the air, and unto the beasts of the earth, and no man shall fray them away.​
Joshua 8:29 KJB - And the king of Ai he hanged on a tree until eventide: and as soon as the sun was down, Joshua commanded that they should take his carcase down from the tree, and cast it at the entering of the gate of the city, and raise thereon a great heap of stones, that remaineth unto this day.​
Judges 14:8 KJB - And after a time he returned to take her, and he turned aside to see the carcase of the lion: and, behold, there was a swarm of bees and honey in the carcase of the lion.​
Judges 14:9 KJB - And he took thereof in his hands, and went on eating, and came to his father and mother, and he gave them, and they did eat: but he told not them that he had taken the honey out of the carcase of the lion.​
1 Kings 13:22 KJB - But camest back, and hast eaten bread and drunk water in the place, of the which the LORD did say to thee, Eat no bread, and drink no water; thy carcase shall not come unto the sepulchre of thy fathers.​
1 Kings 13:24 KJB - And when he was gone, a lion met him by the way, and slew him: and his carcase was cast in the way, and the ass stood by it, the lion also stood by the carcase.​
1 Kings 13:25 KJB - And, behold, men passed by, and saw the carcase cast in the way, and the lion standing by the carcase: and they came and told it in the city where the old prophet dwelt.​
1 Kings 13:28 KJB - And he went and found his carcase cast in the way, and the ass and the lion standing by the carcase: the lion had not eaten the carcase, nor torn the ass.​
1 Kings 13:29 KJB - And the prophet took up the carcase of the man of God, and laid it upon the ass, and brought it back: and the old prophet came to the city, to mourn and to bury him.​
1 Kings 13:30 KJB - And he laid his carcase in his own grave; and they mourned over him, saying, Alas, my brother!​
2 Kings 9:37 KJB - And the carcase of Jezebel shall be as dung upon the face of the field in the portion of Jezreel; so that they shall not say, This is Jezebel.​
Isaiah 14:19 KJB - But thou art cast out of thy grave like an abominable branch, and as the raiment of those that are slain, thrust through with a sword, that go down to the stones of the pit; as a carcase trodden under feet.​
Matthew 24:28 KJB - For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.

In Isaiah 66, and in Mark 9 [quoting Isaiah 66], we see that the wicked are slain, dead upon the ground, and to be burned up in the fire, consumed away as "the fat of lambs", for it is through the Sanctuary [Psalms 77:13 KJB], that we understand all the teachings of God, including what happens to sin, sinners/wicked, they are to be filled with the terror of the LORD in His Holiness, to be slaughtered, cut into pieces, and burned up into smoke and ashes, that all such may have their end [2nd death], for sin, when it is "finished", bringeth forth "death", which is the wages of sin:

Psalms 37:20 KJB - But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away.​
Psalms 73:17 KJB - Until I went into the sanctuary of God; then understood I their end.​
Psalms 73:18 KJB - Surely thou didst set them in slippery places: thou castedst them down into destruction.​
Psalms 73:19 KJB - How are they brought into desolation, as in a moment! they are utterly consumed with terrors.​
 
Aug 3, 2018
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#93
24 Elders are the Heavenly council/Ancients already in Heaven even before the earth was created, they are never given crowns (they already had them), and they minister in Heaven. They are the Leaders and representation of all the unfallen worlds, they are not human. Details upon request.
This seems to disregard several things:

--Rev1:1 "to shew unto His servants [7:3 on the earth] things which must come to pass [4:1 future things] IN QUICKNESS [NOUN, not adverb]…" (this "IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" word is used elsewhere, when speaking to, for, about "the Church which is His body" and its role)--there is evidence in the text that from SEAL #1 to Rev19 [2nd Coming to the earth] is precisely 2520 days (i.e. "IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]"--not over the course of some 2000 yrs, nor from the beginning of creation Gen1)

--"Lamb" of Rev5 is "Arnion [G721]" rather than "Amnos [G286]" (as is used in John 1:29), or else I might be more inclined to believe you...

--Paul was promised to be given a "stephanos/crown" "AT THAT DAY" 2Tim4:8 (which [per context] is "the Day of Christ" UP IN HEAVEN *WITH [G4862 -syn- denoting 'UNION/IDENTIFICATION'] Christ" IN CONTRAST TO "the Day of the Lord" which is always ON THE EARTH, but which will run concurrently with it; "the DOTL [earthly-located TIME PERIOD]" was prophesied about in the OT)

--"harps" in Rev5:8 that the 24 elders have... compare with "harps" of 1Chron25 (along with "psalteries [earthen vessels]" and "cymbals" in the 24-courses of musicians) showing the change from TABERNACLE to [now] TEMPLE worship [1Chron25] (see 2Cor5:1-4 and its parallel of 1Cor15:51,52d,53b,54b, BOTH PASSAGES referring to the context of our RAPTURE [pertaining SOLELY to "the Church which is His body," not to all other saints of all OTHER time periods (not to OT saints, not to Trib saints, not to MK saints)])

--others I'd thought of, but these are sufficient for the present...


I remain unconvinced of your viewpoint of the "24 elders" ;)
 

PyongPing

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#94
No. (Rev. 5:9) is clear that the ones who sang a new song were the ones that recognized that Jesus was worthy to take the book. Those who were praying would have not had such first hand knowledge.

(Rev. 5:9) "And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by the blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation."

Quantrill
Yes.

Rev 5:8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.​
Rev 5:9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;​
Rev 5:10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.​

The 24 elders (who were never on earth, and already ruling in Heaven, having Thrones) are singing on behalf of the redeemed saints, whose "prayers" are represented in the "golden vials full of odours" (incense). They (24 elders) were always in Heaven, even before Jesus ascended (Rev. 4) victoriously. They already have Crowns (as Adam did) and are never given crowns (having never lost them). They are the mighty leaders of the unfallen worlds. They are mentioned:

“Four and Twenty Elders”, the leaders of the other unfallen worlds:

Revelation 4:4,10, 5:5,6,8,11,14, 7:11,13, 11:16, 14:3, 19:4, see also “ancients”: Isaiah 24:23​

In short, the 4 "living creatures", or the "four beasts" are all the unfallen peoples of the unfallen worlds, a represenation of the universal Kingdom of God. A beast in prophecy, is a Kingdom, or Nation, or political body of persons [Daniel 7:17,19 KJB, etc, such as: Genesis 49:9; Isaiah 27:1, 46:11; Jeremiah 4:7, 5:6, 12:8, 25:38, 49:19, 50:44; Ezekiel 17:3,7, 32:2; Daniel 7:7,19,23, 8:20,21; Joel 1:6; Micah 5:8; Revelation 13:1,2,3,7,11,12, 17:3,7,8,11,12, etc., KJB].

The number 4, is the universal number [Genesis 2:10; Exodus 20:8-11 KJB, see four winds, north, south, east and west, four corners, four quarters, the four things in Proverbs, etc, etc], the number of the 4 quarters of space and time [as in the 4th generation]. Thus they represent all of the Heavenly kingdom of God before His throne, all the unfallen worlds circling the throne of Deity. Each of the four faces, represent a character of God, Godly, Kingly, Exalted, Humble, even as the Four Gospels portray Jesus, etc.

In short, the 24 "Elders" or "ancients", are the Heavenly council, the 'presbyters' [if you please], of the unfallen Leaders of the unfallen worlds, the very “sons of God” (Job 1 & 2) who rule the unfallen worlds, as Adam [Luke 3:38 KJB], the first [1 Corinthians 15:45,46,47 KJB], on earth had [Genesis 1:26,28; Psalms 8:5 KJB] before his fall, along with the angelic “morning stars". They are the central representation of all the unfallen worlds, the General Conference of Heaven if you please. They are not human [but take the prayers of the saints on earth before God, Revelation 5:7-8 KJB, as this is what unfallen Heavenly beings do, Daniel 9:21-23; Matthew 18:10; Acts 10:3-4 KJB, etc]. Also there are 24 hours in a day, which also corresponds with time, 12 hours in the daytime [John 11:9 KJB], 12 in the nighttime [Genesis 1:4; Ezekiel 18:25,29 KJB], as there are 12 Patriarchs in the OT [Genesis 35:22 KJB, etc], and 12 Apostles in the NT [Matthew 10:2; Luke 6:13, 22:14; Revelation 21:14 KJB]. 12 Gates and 12 Foundations [Revelation 21:12,13,21 KJB] of the Heavenly city, New Jersualem [Galatians 4:26; Revelation 3:12, 21:2,10, 22:19 KJB].

Each of the 24 Elders have crowns already [thus are not the redeemed, who do not get crowns until after the resurrection, and they already existed in the OT] and white [Light] raiment as Adam did when he was given dominion [stewardship] of this world, before sin.

See:

Ezekiel 1:10, 10:14;
Numbers 1:50-53, 2:2-3,5,7,9,10,12,14,16,17,18,20,22,24,25,27,29,31,34;
Numbers 3:17,23,29,35,38,
Revelation 5:5.

The earthly model on earth, with Moses in the wilderness, with the peoples Israel and the 12 tribes, were a representation of the Heavenly government [which occultists twist, "As above, so below"]:

Deuteronomy 1:15 KJB - So I took the chief of your tribes, wise men, and known, and made them heads over you, captains over thousands, and captains over hundreds, and captains over fifties, and captains over tens, and officers among your tribes.​
Matthew 6:10 KJB - Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.​
Luke 11:2 KJB - And he said unto them, When ye pray, say, Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, as in heaven, so in earth.​
We are that one lost world, whom the Son of God, 'Jesus', left the '99' for in Heaven to come and save us, that he might come from that “far country” and deliver us, and “return home” with us, that we may once again have a “place” among those “many mansions”:

Matthew 18:11 KJB - For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost.​
Matthew 18:12 KJB - How think ye? if a man have an hundred sheep, and one of them be gone astray, doth he not leave the ninety and nine, and goeth into the mountains, and seeketh that which is gone astray?​
Matthew 18:13 KJB - And if so be that he find it, verily I say unto you, he rejoiceth more of that [sheep], than of the ninety and nine which went not astray.​
Luke 15:4 KJB - What man of you, having an hundred sheep, if he lose one of them, doth not leave the ninety and nine in the wilderness, and go after that which is lost, until he find it?​
Luke 15:5 KJB - And when he hath found [it], he layeth [it] on his shoulders, rejoicing.​
Luke 15:6 KJB - And when he cometh home, he calleth together [his] friends and neighbours, saying unto them, Rejoice with me; for I have found my sheep which was lost.​
Rev 12:12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.​
Luke 15:7 KJB - I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance.​
John 14:1 KJB - Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.​
John 14:2 KJB - In my Father's house are many mansions: if [it were] not [so], I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.​
John 14:3 KJB - And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, [there] ye may be also.​
John 14:4 KJB - And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know.​
 
Aug 3, 2018
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#96
No, you just were impatient and didn't wait for me to respond in detail.
Ditto about you, from my perspective.

How would you address what I actually put in that post you've quoted of mine (what, 4 points?)? I disagree with your explanations thus far (in the main).
 

PyongPing

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#97
Your KJV says otherwise, in Mark 9:42-48
[2nd death from which there is no life, nor resurrection, nor return - annihilation] Psalms 9:17; Matthew 5:22,29,30, 10:28, 18:9, 23:15,33; Mark 9:43,45,47; Luke 12:5; 2 Thessalonians 1:9; James 3:6; Revelation 2:11, 20:6,14, 21:8

[sin/sinners gone forever, cut off, perished, no more, destroyed, passed away, etc] Job 20:26,29, 31:2-3; Psalms 7:9, 9:17, 11:6, 21:9, 37:10, 37:20, 37:28,38, 68:2, 69:28, 75:8,10, 92:7,9, 104:35, 106:18, 112:10, 145:20; Proverbs 2:22, 10:25,28,30, 12:7, 13:9, 14:11, 24:20; Ezekiel 18:4, 18:20; Isaiah 13:9, 25:8, 66:17,24; Nahum 1:10; Obadiah 1:16; Zephaniah 1:2-3; Malachi 4:1; Matthew 10:28; John 3:16; Romans 6:23; Hebrews 6:8; James 1:15; 2 Peter 3:10; Revelation 7:17, 20:9, 21:4

John 3:16 says Perish or Everlasting Life [the wicked receive no such gift as everlasting life [there are no immortalized wicked anywhere and never will be], it is only a gift to the saved/just/righteous].

The words used so far in describing the end of the wicked are Destroy, Blotted Out, Perished, Consumed Utterly, Cut Off, Dissolved, Melted, Devoured, Dead, Death, Hath Not Been, Not [any/no more], Burned Up, etc. [all taken from Strong's]:

[Hebrew: machah מחה; meaning: to wipe out; blot out, obliterate; exterminated]​
[Hebrew: macah מסה; meaning: melt away, dissolve, liquefy, consumed]​
[Hebrew: muwg מוג; meaning: to melt, dissolve, faint, dissipate, flow away]​
[Hebrew: muwth מות; meaning: dead, death, kill, slain]​
[Hebrew: da`ak דעך; meaning: extinguished, to go out, put out, dry up, made extinct, quenched]​
[Hebrew: caphah ספה; meaning: to be swept away, destroyed, consumed]​
[Hebrew: shachath שחת; meaning: destroyed, corrupted, ruined, decayed]​
[Hebrew: parar פרר; meaning: break apart, frustrate, split, splinter to pieces, shatter, cracked up]​
[Hebrew: 'abad אבד; meaning: perished, vanished, destroyed, die, exterminated, blot out, put to death]​
[Hebrew: 'obed אבד; meaning: destruction, perish]​
[Hebrew: gava` גוע; meaning: to expire, die, death, breathe ones last, yield up the last breath]​
[Hebrew: cuwph סוף; meaning: to come to an end, to make an end, consume utterly, cause to cease, perish]​
[Hebrew: damah דמה; meaning: to cease, cause to cease, cut off, destroy, perish, to be undone]​
[Hebrew: charam חרם; meaning: to ban, destroy utterly and completely, exterminated, forfeited, divided, prohibited]​
[Hebrew: kalah כלה; meaning: consumed, determined, ended, finished, completely spent, at an end, perish, terminated, annihilation, complete destruction]​
[Hebrew: karath כרת; meaning: cut off, cut asunder, eliminate, kill, cut down]​
[Hebrew: kachad כחד; meaning: hide, conceal, cut down, make desolate, destroy, cut off, annihilate, efface]​
[Hebrew: bala` בלע; meaning: swallowed up, eaten up, to be ended]​
[Hebrew: balah בלה; meaning: to wear out, wear away, use up completely]​
[Hebrew: harac הרס; meaning: to tear down, break down, overthrow, destroy utterly]​
[Hebrew: show' שוא; meaning: devastated, ruined, laid to waste]​
[Hebrew: tsamath צמת; meaning: put an end to, cut off, destroy, exterminate, annihilate]​
[Hebrew: shamad שמד; meaning: destroyed, exterminate, annihilated, devastated]​
[Hebrew: naphal נפל; meaning: cast down, fail, waste away, overturn, knock down, fall]​
[Hebrew: 'akal אכל; meaning: to eat, devour, consume, to be wasted, destroyed]​
[Hebrew: chacal חסל; meaning: to consume, eaten up, bring to an end]​
[Hebrew: tamam תמם; meaning: to be complete, finished, at an end, consumed, exhausted]​
[Hebrew: 'oklah אכלה; meaning: object of devouring, consuming in judgment]​
[Hebrew: maqaq מקק; meaning: to decay, pine away, rot, fester, corrupt, dissolve]​
[Hebrew: guwz גוז; meaning: to pass over, pass away (of life), cut off]​
[Hebrew: yatsath יצת; meaning: to be burned up, to be made desolate, set on fire]​
[Hebrew: sĕrephah שרפה; meaning: burning, burn, burnt up throughly]​
[Greek: apollymi ἀπόλλυμι; meaning: to destroy, put out of the way entirely, abolish, put an end to ruin, render useless, kill, perish]​
[Greek: lyō λύω; meaning: loosed, undone, annul, dissolve, do away with, overthrow, break up]​
[Greek: katalyō καταλύω; meaning: dissolved, disunite, overthrow, render vain, bring to naught]​
[Greek: analiskō ἀναλίσκω; meaning: to expend, consume, destroy]​
[Greek: phtheirō φθείρω; meaning: to corrupt, to destroy, to perish, deprave]​
[Greek: diaphtheirō διαφθείρω; meaning: to corrupt, consume, destroy, kill, eat up, ruin]​
[Greek: aphanizō ἀφανίζω; meaning: to snatch away, take away, to make unseen, to destroy, consume, to make vanish]​
[Greek: phthora φθορά; meaning: corruption, destruction, perishing, decay]​
[Greek: kataphtheirō καταφθείρω; meaning: to corrupt, deprave, to destroy, perish]​
[Greek: ekkoptō ἐκκόπτω; meaning: hewn down, cut off or out]​
[Greek: apokoptō ἀποκόπτω; meaning: cut off, amputate]​
[Greek: nekros νεκρός; meaning: lifeless, dead, deceased, breathed ones last, inanimate, inactive]​
[Greek: nekroō νεκρόω; meaning: dead, put to death, to deprive of power, destroy the strength]​
[Greek: apothnēskō ἀποθνῄσκω; meaning: to die, perish, dry up, eternal death]​
[Greek: empi(m)prēmi ἐμπί(μ)πρημι; meaning: burn up, destroy by fire]​
[Greek: katakaiō κατακαίω; meaning: to burn up, consume by fire]​

Begin to ask, where are the all of the wicked [including Satan and his angels] standing in Revelation 20:8-9? Do they [the wicked] live there eternally or are they rather not completely destroyed so that the New Heaven and the New Earth may be created there, wherein dwelleth righteousness, peace, no more tears, pain or sorrow or sin or satan?

"... and there was found no place for them." Revelation 20:11​
"... that no place was found for them: ..." - Daniel 2:35​
 

Quantrill

Well-known member
Sep 20, 2018
861
254
63
#98
Yes.

Rev 5:8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.​
Rev 5:9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;​
Rev 5:10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.​

The 24 elders (who were never on earth, and already ruling in Heaven, having Thrones) are singing on behalf of the redeemed saints, whose "prayers" are represented in the "golden vials full of odours" (incense). They (24 elders) were always in Heaven, even before Jesus ascended (Rev. 4) victoriously. They already have Crowns (as Adam did) and are never given crowns (having never lost them). They are the mighty leaders of the unfallen worlds. They are mentioned:

“Four and Twenty Elders”, the leaders of the other unfallen worlds:

Revelation 4:4,10, 5:5,6,8,11,14, 7:11,13, 11:16, 14:3, 19:4, see also “ancients”: Isaiah 24:23​

In short, the 4 "living creatures", or the "four beasts" are all the unfallen peoples of the unfallen worlds, a represenation of the universal Kingdom of God. A beast in prophecy, is a Kingdom, or Nation, or political body of persons [Daniel 7:17,19 KJB, etc, such as: Genesis 49:9; Isaiah 27:1, 46:11; Jeremiah 4:7, 5:6, 12:8, 25:38, 49:19, 50:44; Ezekiel 17:3,7, 32:2; Daniel 7:7,19,23, 8:20,21; Joel 1:6; Micah 5:8; Revelation 13:1,2,3,7,11,12, 17:3,7,8,11,12, etc., KJB].

The number 4, is the universal number [Genesis 2:10; Exodus 20:8-11 KJB, see four winds, north, south, east and west, four corners, four quarters, the four things in Proverbs, etc, etc], the number of the 4 quarters of space and time [as in the 4th generation]. Thus they represent all of the Heavenly kingdom of God before His throne, all the unfallen worlds circling the throne of Deity. Each of the four faces, represent a character of God, Godly, Kingly, Exalted, Humble, even as the Four Gospels portray Jesus, etc.

In short, the 24 "Elders" or "ancients", are the Heavenly council, the 'presbyters' [if you please], of the unfallen Leaders of the unfallen worlds, the very “sons of God” (Job 1 & 2) who rule the unfallen worlds, as Adam [Luke 3:38 KJB], the first [1 Corinthians 15:45,46,47 KJB], on earth had [Genesis 1:26,28; Psalms 8:5 KJB] before his fall, along with the angelic “morning stars". They are the central representation of all the unfallen worlds, the General Conference of Heaven if you please. They are not human [but take the prayers of the saints on earth before God, Revelation 5:7-8 KJB, as this is what unfallen Heavenly beings do, Daniel 9:21-23; Matthew 18:10; Acts 10:3-4 KJB, etc]. Also there are 24 hours in a day, which also corresponds with time, 12 hours in the daytime [John 11:9 KJB], 12 in the nighttime [Genesis 1:4; Ezekiel 18:25,29 KJB], as there are 12 Patriarchs in the OT [Genesis 35:22 KJB, etc], and 12 Apostles in the NT [Matthew 10:2; Luke 6:13, 22:14; Revelation 21:14 KJB]. 12 Gates and 12 Foundations [Revelation 21:12,13,21 KJB] of the Heavenly city, New Jersualem [Galatians 4:26; Revelation 3:12, 21:2,10, 22:19 KJB].

Each of the 24 Elders have crowns already [thus are not the redeemed, who do not get crowns until after the resurrection, and they already existed in the OT] and white [Light] raiment as Adam did when he was given dominion [stewardship] of this world, before sin.

See:

Ezekiel 1:10, 10:14;
Numbers 1:50-53, 2:2-3,5,7,9,10,12,14,16,17,18,20,22,24,25,27,29,31,34;
Numbers 3:17,23,29,35,38,
Revelation 5:5.

The earthly model on earth, with Moses in the wilderness, with the peoples Israel and the 12 tribes, were a representation of the Heavenly government [which occultists twist, "As above, so below"]:

Deuteronomy 1:15 KJB - So I took the chief of your tribes, wise men, and known, and made them heads over you, captains over thousands, and captains over hundreds, and captains over fifties, and captains over tens, and officers among your tribes.​
Matthew 6:10 KJB - Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.​
Luke 11:2 KJB - And he said unto them, When ye pray, say, Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, as in heaven, so in earth.​
We are that one lost world, whom the Son of God, 'Jesus', left the '99' for in Heaven to come and save us, that he might come from that “far country” and deliver us, and “return home” with us, that we may once again have a “place” among those “many mansions”:

Matthew 18:11 KJB - For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost.​
Matthew 18:12 KJB - How think ye? if a man have an hundred sheep, and one of them be gone astray, doth he not leave the ninety and nine, and goeth into the mountains, and seeketh that which is gone astray?​
Matthew 18:13 KJB - And if so be that he find it, verily I say unto you, he rejoiceth more of that [sheep], than of the ninety and nine which went not astray.​
Luke 15:4 KJB - What man of you, having an hundred sheep, if he lose one of them, doth not leave the ninety and nine in the wilderness, and go after that which is lost, until he find it?​
Luke 15:5 KJB - And when he hath found [it], he layeth [it] on his shoulders, rejoicing.​
Luke 15:6 KJB - And when he cometh home, he calleth together [his] friends and neighbours, saying unto them, Rejoice with me; for I have found my sheep which was lost.​
Rev 12:12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.​
Luke 15:7 KJB - I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance.​
John 14:1 KJB - Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.​
John 14:2 KJB - In my Father's house are many mansions: if [it were] not [so], I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.​
John 14:3 KJB - And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, [there] ye may be also.​
John 14:4 KJB - And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know.​
Yes what? I just told you and showed you, the 24 elders were redeemed. That makes them part of the human race. Not your so called leaders of unfallen worlds.

(Rev. 5:9) is clear. You present a lot of fog trying to cover up the issue. But it won't work. You're like a cat that was given an enema. Running around digging holes and covering em up.

Quantrill
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
6,591
1,759
113
#99
[2nd death from which there is no life, nor resurrection, nor return - annihilation] Psalms 9:17; Matthew 5:22,29,30, 10:28, 18:9, 23:15,33; Mark 9:43,45,47; Luke 12:5; 2 Thessalonians 1:9; James 3:6; Revelation 2:11, 20:6,14, 21:8

[sin/sinners gone forever, cut off, perished, no more, destroyed, passed away, etc] Job 20:26,29, 31:2-3; Psalms 7:9, 9:17, 11:6, 21:9, 37:10, 37:20, 37:28,38, 68:2, 69:28, 75:8,10, 92:7,9, 104:35, 106:18, 112:10, 145:20; Proverbs 2:22, 10:25,28,30, 12:7, 13:9, 14:11, 24:20; Ezekiel 18:4, 18:20; Isaiah 13:9, 25:8, 66:17,24; Nahum 1:10; Obadiah 1:16; Zephaniah 1:2-3; Malachi 4:1; Matthew 10:28; John 3:16; Romans 6:23; Hebrews 6:8; James 1:15; 2 Peter 3:10; Revelation 7:17, 20:9, 21:4

John 3:16 says Perish or Everlasting Life [the wicked receive no such gift as everlasting life [there are no immortalized wicked anywhere and never will be], it is only a gift to the saved/just/righteous].

The words used so far in describing the end of the wicked are Destroy, Blotted Out, Perished, Consumed Utterly, Cut Off, Dissolved, Melted, Devoured, Dead, Death, Hath Not Been, Not [any/no more], Burned Up, etc. [all taken from Strong's]:

[Hebrew: machah מחה; meaning: to wipe out; blot out, obliterate; exterminated]​
[Hebrew: macah מסה; meaning: melt away, dissolve, liquefy, consumed]​
[Hebrew: muwg מוג; meaning: to melt, dissolve, faint, dissipate, flow away]​
[Hebrew: muwth מות; meaning: dead, death, kill, slain]​
[Hebrew: da`ak דעך; meaning: extinguished, to go out, put out, dry up, made extinct, quenched]​
[Hebrew: caphah ספה; meaning: to be swept away, destroyed, consumed]​
[Hebrew: shachath שחת; meaning: destroyed, corrupted, ruined, decayed]​
[Hebrew: parar פרר; meaning: break apart, frustrate, split, splinter to pieces, shatter, cracked up]​
[Hebrew: 'abad אבד; meaning: perished, vanished, destroyed, die, exterminated, blot out, put to death]​
[Hebrew: 'obed אבד; meaning: destruction, perish]​
[Hebrew: gava` גוע; meaning: to expire, die, death, breathe ones last, yield up the last breath]​
[Hebrew: cuwph סוף; meaning: to come to an end, to make an end, consume utterly, cause to cease, perish]​
[Hebrew: damah דמה; meaning: to cease, cause to cease, cut off, destroy, perish, to be undone]​
[Hebrew: charam חרם; meaning: to ban, destroy utterly and completely, exterminated, forfeited, divided, prohibited]​
[Hebrew: kalah כלה; meaning: consumed, determined, ended, finished, completely spent, at an end, perish, terminated, annihilation, complete destruction]​
[Hebrew: karath כרת; meaning: cut off, cut asunder, eliminate, kill, cut down]​
[Hebrew: kachad כחד; meaning: hide, conceal, cut down, make desolate, destroy, cut off, annihilate, efface]​
[Hebrew: bala` בלע; meaning: swallowed up, eaten up, to be ended]​
[Hebrew: balah בלה; meaning: to wear out, wear away, use up completely]​
[Hebrew: harac הרס; meaning: to tear down, break down, overthrow, destroy utterly]​
[Hebrew: show' שוא; meaning: devastated, ruined, laid to waste]​
[Hebrew: tsamath צמת; meaning: put an end to, cut off, destroy, exterminate, annihilate]​
[Hebrew: shamad שמד; meaning: destroyed, exterminate, annihilated, devastated]​
[Hebrew: naphal נפל; meaning: cast down, fail, waste away, overturn, knock down, fall]​
[Hebrew: 'akal אכל; meaning: to eat, devour, consume, to be wasted, destroyed]​
[Hebrew: chacal חסל; meaning: to consume, eaten up, bring to an end]​
[Hebrew: tamam תמם; meaning: to be complete, finished, at an end, consumed, exhausted]​
[Hebrew: 'oklah אכלה; meaning: object of devouring, consuming in judgment]​
[Hebrew: maqaq מקק; meaning: to decay, pine away, rot, fester, corrupt, dissolve]​
[Hebrew: guwz גוז; meaning: to pass over, pass away (of life), cut off]​
[Hebrew: yatsath יצת; meaning: to be burned up, to be made desolate, set on fire]​
[Hebrew: sĕrephah שרפה; meaning: burning, burn, burnt up throughly]​
[Greek: apollymi ἀπόλλυμι; meaning: to destroy, put out of the way entirely, abolish, put an end to ruin, render useless, kill, perish]​
[Greek: lyō λύω; meaning: loosed, undone, annul, dissolve, do away with, overthrow, break up]​
[Greek: katalyō καταλύω; meaning: dissolved, disunite, overthrow, render vain, bring to naught]​
[Greek: analiskō ἀναλίσκω; meaning: to expend, consume, destroy]​
[Greek: phtheirō φθείρω; meaning: to corrupt, to destroy, to perish, deprave]​
[Greek: diaphtheirō διαφθείρω; meaning: to corrupt, consume, destroy, kill, eat up, ruin]​
[Greek: aphanizō ἀφανίζω; meaning: to snatch away, take away, to make unseen, to destroy, consume, to make vanish]​
[Greek: phthora φθορά; meaning: corruption, destruction, perishing, decay]​
[Greek: kataphtheirō καταφθείρω; meaning: to corrupt, deprave, to destroy, perish]​
[Greek: ekkoptō ἐκκόπτω; meaning: hewn down, cut off or out]​
[Greek: apokoptō ἀποκόπτω; meaning: cut off, amputate]​
[Greek: nekros νεκρός; meaning: lifeless, dead, deceased, breathed ones last, inanimate, inactive]​
[Greek: nekroō νεκρόω; meaning: dead, put to death, to deprive of power, destroy the strength]​
[Greek: apothnēskō ἀποθνῄσκω; meaning: to die, perish, dry up, eternal death]​
[Greek: empi(m)prēmi ἐμπί(μ)πρημι; meaning: burn up, destroy by fire]​
[Greek: katakaiō κατακαίω; meaning: to burn up, consume by fire]​

Begin to ask, where are the all of the wicked [including Satan and his angels] standing in Revelation 20:8-9? Do they [the wicked] live there eternally or are they rather not completely destroyed so that the New Heaven and the New Earth may be created there, wherein dwelleth righteousness, peace, no more tears, pain or sorrow or sin or satan?

"... and there was found no place for them." Revelation 20:11​
"... that no place was found for them: ..." - Daniel 2:35​
You have earned a place on my ignore list. Have a nice life.
 

PyongPing

Active member
Oct 9, 2018
281
41
28
www.worldincrisis.org
Your KJV says otherwise, in Mark 9:42-48
Consider some historical material

Irenaeus - Against Heresies (Book II, Chapter 34)

And therefore he who shall preserve the life bestowed upon him, and give thanks to Him who imparted it, shall receive also length of days for ever and ever. But he who shall reject it, and prove himself ungrateful to his Maker, inasmuch as he has been created, and has not recognised Him who bestowed [the gift upon him], deprives himself of [the privilege of] continuance for ever and ever. And, for this reason, the Lord declared to those who showed themselves ungrateful towards Him: “If you have not been faithful in that which is little, who will give you that which is great?” indicating that those who, in this brief temporal life, have shown themselves ungrateful to Him who bestowed it, shall justly not receive from Him length of days for ever and ever.​

Athanasius the Great - On the Incarnation of the Word, Chapter 6

The human race then was wasting, God’s image was being effaced, and His work ruined. Either, then, God must forego His spoken word by which man had incurred ruin; or that which had shared in the being of the Word must sink back again into destruction, in which case God’s design would be defeated.​

Athanasius the Great - Discourse 3 Against the Arians, Chapter 29

For it beseemed that the flesh, corruptible as it was, should no longer after its own nature remain mortal, but because of the Word who had put it on, should abide incorruptible. For as He, having come in our body, was conformed to our condition, so we, receiving Him, partake of the immortality that is from Him.​

Athanasius the Great - On the Incarnation of the Word, Chapter 4

"We have seen that to change the corruptible to incorruption was proper to none other than the Savior Himself, Who in the beginning made all things out of nothing; that only the Image of the Father could re-create the likeness of the Image in men, that none save our Lord Jesus Christ could give to mortals immortality, and that only the Word Who orders all things and is alone the Father's true and sole-begotten Son could teach men about Him and abolish the worship of idols. But beyond all this, there was a debt owing which must needs be paid; for, as I said before, all men were due to die. Here, then, is the second reason why the Word dwelt among us, namely that having proved His Godhead by His works, He might offer the sacrifice on behalf of all, surrendering His own temple to death in place of all, to settle man's account with death and free him from the primal transgression."​

Athanasius the Great - On the Incarnation of the Word, Chapter 4

For transgression of the commandment was turning them back to their natural state, so that just as they have had their being out of nothing, so also, as might be expected, they might look for corruption into nothing in the course of time. 5. For if, out of a former normal state of non-existence, they were called into being by the Presence and loving-kindness of the Word, it followed naturally that when men were bereft of the knowledge of God and were turned back to what was not (for what is evil is not, but what is good is), they should, since they derive their being from God who IS, be everlastingly bereft even of being; in other words, that they should be disintegrated and abide in death and corruption.​

Ignasius - The Epistle of Ignatius to the Ephesians, Chapter 18

For this end did the Lord allow the ointment to be poured upon His head, John 12:7 that He might breathe immortality into His Church. Be not anointed with the bad odour of the doctrine of the prince of this world; let him not lead you away captive from the life which is set before you. And why are we not all prudent, since we have received the knowledge of God, which is Jesus Christ? Why do we foolishly perish, not recognising the gift which the Lord has of a truth sent to us?​

Ignasius - The Epistle of Ignatius to the Magnesians
Let us not, therefore, be insensible to His kindness. For were He to reward us according to our works, we should cease to be.​

Samuel Richardson (1633-1658)
Pastor, First Particular Baptist Church, of London wrote a discourse entitled :


"A Discourse on the Torments of Hell : The Foundations and Pillars therof discover'd, serch'd, shaken, and remov'd. With Infallible Proofs that there is not to be a punishment after this Life, for any to endure that shall never end" 1658 [see also Page 70 here, right hand top Column] - http://books.google.com/books?id=W2NlnJippEkC&printsec=frontcover#v=onepage&q&f=false

Modern era:

"... annihilationists come from and are part of any number of different denominations. ...​
... E. Earle Ellis was a professor of theology at Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary (Southern Baptist Convention) until he fell asleep. Similarly, Dale Moody taught at Southern Baptist Seminary (also SBC). I bet you never thought conservative Southern Baptists would hold this view! Claude Mariottini, Old Testament professor at Northern Baptist Seminary (American Baptist Convention), is also an annihilationist, 7 ..." - Don’t Be Afraid to Rethink Hell: Why Other Beliefs Needn’t Get In Your Way
"... I was a few weeks into the research when I read an article by a renown Southern Baptist New Testament scholar named E. Earle Ellis titled “The New Testament Teaching on Hell.” In it, he argued fairly and thoroughly that the New Testament advocates for an annihilation view of hell. This caught me off guard; I didn’t know he was going to argue for this. I read the article very casually, thinking it was going to be yet another defense of the traditional view. After all, Ellis is Southern Baptist. He’s evangelical. And he didn’t front his view at the beginning. He simply looked at all the relevant passages, exegeted them (with the exegetical methods I was taught in seminary), and then concluded that hell would not last forever; that is, its inhabitants would not experience everlasting conscious torment. And Ellis argued this from the text. ..." - Is Annihilation an Evangelical Option?
E. Earle Ellis ; New Testament Teaching on Hell - Rethinking Hell

and so many others.