Are you preterist or merely 'modified post-trib'?

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iamsoandso

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Oct 6, 2011
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I consider myself more as a partial Preterest. I do not believe that everything happened in AD 70 but that there is a second coming and final judgement ahead.

The reason I reject the Pre Trib position is that it is part of John Nelson Darbys Dispensational teaching. One of the main teachings of Darby is that God has two separate plans for humanity. One for national Israel and the Jews and one for the church and the Gentiles. The Church according to this teaching only exists because the Jews rejected Christs offer of the kingdom so the Church was created to do what National Israel was supposed do and that is turn the Gentile Nations back to God. So the 'Church Age' is seen as a temporary measure that will exist until God turns his attention once again to Israel.
In order for God to fulfill his plan for Israel something has to be done with the Church. The answer according to Darby is
the Pre Tribulation Rapture. The Church leaves the Earth and only the Jews and unbelievers are left. God then saves an unspecified number of Jews that range from 144000 to all of them depending on whom you ask and unbelieving Gentiles are destroyed in the tribulation.

All this appears to go against traditional christian teaching. Instead of Jesus being the only way to the Father it seems that being Jewish is a viable alternative if you don.t mind the tribulation and slavishly following the Old Covenant. Also Paul it seems was talking rubbish when he said both Jew and Gentile were all one in Christ Jesus. The early Jewish Church members and the Apostles must have been in a constant state of spiritual schizophrenia not knowing which of Darby's group they belonged to.
I like the way you describe your "position". Myself I agree with some of the things but not all and agree with some things the other says and back and forth so the best way I could describe my own self is "outside the camps"(something Arthur w. Pink said,not that I agree with everything he said either,lol).

But like you said I think some of the things did happen prior and up to ad70 but not everything. The concept op "pre-trib rapture" Darby's style is one of them in that it insinuates more than the two resurrections and their destinations. One pre-trib(BoC) to heaven, The two witnesses(not of the BoC) then the second resurrection and then possibly another baring in mind the different times in The Revelation John sees humans in heaven before the second coming(so which resurrection are they from?).
 

Locutus

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The 7 hills are 7 heads that are specifically Rome.

You agree that the beast is Rome,

Will you now try to change the identity of the 7 hills/heads to another city, another set of 7 hills somewhere else?

The 7 hills/heads can only be Rome.

And the only city that can be on those 7 hills is Rome.
No - the city is still Jerusalem represented as a woman.


Rev 17:6 And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration.

Rev 17:7 And the angel said unto me, Wherefore didst thou marvel? I will tell thee the mystery of the woman, and of the beast that carrieth her, which hath the seven heads and ten horns.

Rev 17:8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

Rev 17:9 And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.

Rev 17:10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.

The beast is comprised of seven heads, ten horns (Romans)

The woman is "seated" on the beast - if the woman are Romans you have the Romans sitting on Rome - why would it take a mind "which hath wisdom" to figure out this?

What the mystery is is that the woman is apostate Jerusalem in league with the seven heads and ten horns

I've already pointed out Johns distinguishes between the great city and the city of the nations (ethnos) - Rome is an ethnos city.

Rev 16:19 And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations (ethnos) fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.

Josephus writes that the city fell into 3 Jewish factions to control it or fight over it

Strongs

G3313 meros mer'-os

from an obsolete but more primary form of meiromai (to get as a section or
allotment);

a division or share (literally or figuratively, in a wide application):--behalf,
course, coast, craft, particular (+ -ly), part (+ -ly), piece, portion, respect,
side, some sort(-what).



Do you think that this planet will last forever?

I already showed that it won't, Gen 8:22.
This is one of the things that I'm talking about and confuses the discussion - we are talking about the identity of the woman yet you want to jump around and discuss whether the earth gets destroyed - to which I've already stated no, the reason being you don't understand what the old heavens and earth were or represented.

The seals and trumpets appear to be on Israel.

But the vials seem to be related to the beast of Rome. Yes?

yes
No

Isle of Patmos?
Doing it again - jumping around
 

Locutus

Senior Member
Feb 10, 2017
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As far as you know,I am about a quarter way through the book you suggested I read and will relate what I gather from it when I Finnish.
Good, I think you will get something out of the book - I don't agree with everything he says - but his "conclusions" for the date of the book of revelation is pretty persuasive.
 

tanakh

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Dec 1, 2015
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Babylon Tyre Rome and Jerusalem are all used figuratively for Babylon the great and the Harlot. Babylon in Revelation has two major features one is Idolatry and the other is Commerce with the need to import goods in particular those considered a luxury. Its end time destruction will create a serious financial crises that's why the merchants are so upset by it. We wont really know the identity of Babylon until all the 'Jigsaw pieces' come together but my guess is that it is somewhere in the Middle East because all the Empires mentioned in Scripture had territory there.
 

iamsoandso

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Oct 6, 2011
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Good, I think you will get something out of the book - I don't agree with everything he says - but his "conclusions" for the date of the book of revelation is pretty persuasive.
I will continue to read the pdf. book you referred to me and try to remain non bias but I should say at this point that although it seems plausible that some things are accurate some might not be, One instance is that the purpose is stated by the author on page 59 of the pdf.=page 43-44 of the book(end of 43/beginning of 44) that the intention is not use the opinions of the second century Christian writers. It begins with Irenaeus who it says is the most weighty account and begins to take the Greek word structure and show that it could mean John instead of the Revelation as to what was seen not many days ago.

Now why I say this is that from my own studies of A.H. 1-5 by Irenaeus I knew something about Irenaeus most never discuss which is a problem I ran into several years back CHURCH FATHERS: Against Heresies, Book I (St. Irenaeus) which is that in the "preface" to A.H.(third paragraph) Irenaeus states himself that he was not good at writing in Greek because he lived among the "Keltae" and was not accustomed to articulate forms of Greek sentence structure.

I had ran into this same theory several years back and mentioned the point of him speaking in the Keltae language in this thread http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/52562-i-need-help-math-problem.html so the most weighty opinion(Irenaeus) is not overturned in my mind as you would expect because of the form of Greek used by Irenaeus in the preface to A.H. ,

I hope this is helpful in your studies and apologize for giving the links and providing the paragraphs I am quoting.
 

Locutus

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This what you've previously posted ABC:

"The woman harlot of Rev 17 is Rome.

The dragon with 7 heads and 10 horns is Rome, we agree on this I think.

The woman is a city that sits on the 7 hills of Rome."

Rev 17:16 And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire.


So what you have stated is the harlot (Rome) gets burned by the ten horns (a bunch of Romans).
 

abcdef

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Mar 30, 2016
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This what you've previously posted ABC:

"The woman harlot of Rev 17 is Rome.

The dragon with 7 heads and 10 horns is Rome, we agree on this I think.

The woman is a city that sits on the 7 hills of Rome."

Rev 17:16 And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire.


So what you have stated is the harlot (Rome) gets burned by the ten horns (a bunch of Romans).


You are right.

Except the the ten Roman NATIONS/KINGS appear and continue after the Roman Empire is past and divided (10), 476 ad.

But the woman (Roman false religion) is still around at that time, the RCC.

If the harlot was Jerusalem she would not be around at the time of the 10 kings/nations.

---

The woman in Rev 17 is false religion, that traces her history back to the tower of Babel (Babylon).

This is why she is called the mother of harlots.

Jerusalem is not the origin of all false religion harlots, but the tower of Babel is.

This false religion, Caesar worship (worship the creation), is riding on Rome, is Rome.

---

Everything in the Bible was not fulfilled by 70 ad..

This has already been shown to be false, Gen 8:22.

This is why you cannot understand that this is showing a time after the dest of Jeru.

Until the fall of Rome in 476 ad,

And into the time of the complete division (10) of the Roman Empire, and beyond.
 

Locutus

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(Gen 8:22 KJV) While the earth remaineth, seedtime and harvest, and cold and heat, and summer and winter, and day and night shall not cease.

What's this got to do with 70 AD?
 

tanakh

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I like the way you describe your "position". Myself I agree with some of the things but not all and agree with some things the other says and back and forth so the best way I could describe my own self is "outside the camps"(something Arthur w. Pink said,not that I agree with everything he said either,lol).

But like you said I think some of the things did happen prior and up to ad70 but not everything. The concept op "pre-trib rapture" Darby's style is one of them in that it insinuates more than the two resurrections and their destinations. One pre-trib(BoC) to heaven, The two witnesses(not of the BoC) then the second resurrection and then possibly another baring in mind the different times in The Revelation John sees humans in heaven before the second coming(so which resurrection are they from?).
Thanks for the reply. I should mention that I didn't come up with the Partial Preterist label. It is a recognized term Anyway there are a huge number of people who dont fit into any of the groups mentioned on this site. I have never read anything by Pink but have added him to my Christian writers 'Bucket List'

God Bless
 

Timeline

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Mar 20, 2014
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Matthew 21:33-46

33
“Listen to another parable. There was a landowner who PLANTED A VINEYARD AND PUT A WALL AROUND IT AND DUG A WINE PRESS IN IT, AND BUILT A TOWER, and rented it out to vine-growers and went on a journey. 34“When the harvest time approached, he sent his slaves to the vine-growers to receive his produce. 35“The vine-growers took his slaves and beat one, and killed another, and stoned a third. 36“Again he sent another group of slaves larger than the first; and they did the same thing to them. 37But afterward he sent his son to them, saying, ‘They will respect my son.’ 38“But when the vine-growers saw the son, they said among themselves, ‘This is the heir; come, let us kill him and seize his inheritance.’ 39“They took him, and threw him out of the vineyard and killed him. 40“Therefore when the owner of the vineyard comes, what will he do to those vine-growers?” 41They said to Him, “He will bring those wretches to a wretched end, and will rent out the vineyard to other vine-growers who will pay him the proceeds at the proper seasons.”
42Jesus said to them, “Did you never read in the Scriptures,
‘THE STONE WHICH THE BUILDERS REJECTED,
THIS BECAME THE CHIEF CORNER stone;
THIS CAME ABOUT FROM THE LORD,
AND IT IS MARVELOUS IN OUR EYES’?

43Therefore I say to you, the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people, producing the fruit of it. 44And he who falls on this stone will be broken to pieces; but on whomever it falls, it will scatter him like dust.” 45When the chief priests and the Pharisees heard His parables, they understood that He was speaking about them. 46When they sought to seize Him, they feared the people, because they considered Him to be a prophet.

Daniel 2:31-45
31“You, O king, were looking and behold, there was a single great statue; that statue, which was large and of extraordinary splendor, was standing in front of you, and its appearance was awesome. 32“The head of that statue was made of fine gold, its breast and its arms of silver, its belly and its thighs of bronze, 33its legs of iron, its feet partly of iron and partly of clay. 34“You continued looking until a stone was cut out without hands, and it struck the statue on its feet of iron and clay and crushed them. 35Then the iron, the clay, the bronze, the silver and the gold were crushed all at the same time and became like chaff from the summer threshing floors; and the wind carried them away so that not a trace of them was found. But the stone that struck the statue became a great mountain and filled the whole earth.
36“This was the dream; now we will tell its interpretation before the king. 37“You, O king, are the king of kings, to whom the God of heaven has given the kingdom, the power, the strength and the glory; 38and wherever the sons of men dwell, or the beasts of the field, or the birds of the sky, He has given them into your hand and has caused you to rule over them all. You are the head of gold.
39“After you there will arise another kingdom inferior to you, then another third kingdom of bronze, which will rule over all the earth.
40“Then there will be a fourth kingdom as strong as iron; inasmuch as iron crushes and shatters all things, so, like iron that breaks in pieces, it will crush and break all these in pieces. 41“In that you saw the feet and toes, partly of potter’s clay and partly of iron, it will be a divided kingdom; but it will have in it the toughness of iron, inasmuch as you saw the iron mixed with common clay. 42As the toes of the feet were partly of iron and partly of pottery, so some of the kingdom will be strong and part of it will be brittle. 43“And in that you saw the iron mixed with common clay, they will combine with one another in the seed of men; but they will not adhere to one another, even as iron does not combine with pottery.
44“In the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom which will never be destroyed, and that kingdom will not be left for another people; it will crush and put an end to all these kingdoms, but it will itself endure forever. 45“Inasmuch as you saw that a stone was cut out of the mountain without hands and that it crushed the iron, the bronze, the clay, the silver and the gold, the great God has made known to the king what will take place in the future; so the dream is true and its interpretation is trustworthy.”

I don't really understand how the gold, silver, and bronze were involved, but I do believe that this was fulfilled through Jesus Christ. It appears, to me, that Babylon, Persia, and Greece had already fallen by this time. But we do know that Jerusalem had been controlled and influenced by all of these nations, including Rome. But this also brings up the question, "If clay represents the Jewish people, then why isn't clay mixed in throughout the statue?".

 
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MadebyHim

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[SUP]10 [/SUP]Then He said to them, “Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. [SUP]11 [/SUP]And there will be great earthquakes in various places, and famines and pestilences; and there will be fearful sights and great signs from heaven. [SUP]12 [/SUP]But before all these things, they will lay their hands on you and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues and prisons. You will be brought before kings and rulers for My name’s sake. [SUP]13 [/SUP]But it will turn out for you as an occasion for testimony. [SUP]14 [/SUP]Therefore settle it in your hearts not to meditate beforehand on what you will answer; [SUP]15 [/SUP]for I will give you a mouth and wisdom which all your adversaries will not be able to contradict or resist. [SUP]16 [/SUP]You will be betrayed even by parents and brothers, relatives and friends; and they will put some of you to death. [SUP]17 [/SUP]And you will be hated by all for My name’s sake. [SUP]18 [/SUP]But not a hair of your head shall be lost. [SUP]19 [/SUP]By your patience possess your souls. Luke 21:10-19




[SUP]25 [/SUP]“And there will be signs in the sun, in the moon, and in the stars; and on the earth distress of nations, with perplexity, the sea and the waves roaring; [SUP]26 [/SUP]men’s hearts failing them from fear and the expectation of those things which are coming on the earth, for the powers of the heavens will be shaken. [SUP]27 [/SUP]Then they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. [SUP]28 [/SUP]Now when these things begin to happen, look up and lift up your heads, because your redemption draws near.” Luke 21:25-28



[SUP]34 [/SUP]“But take heed to yourselves, lest your hearts be weighed down with carousing, drunkenness, and cares of this life, and that Day come on you unexpectedly. [SUP]35 [/SUP]For it will come as a snare on all those who dwell on the face of the whole earth. [SUP]36 [/SUP]Watch therefore, and pray always that you may be counted worthy to escape all these things that will come to pass, and to stand before the Son of Man.”

[SUP]37 [/SUP]And in the daytime He was teaching in the temple, but at night He went out and stayed on the mountain called Olivet. [SUP]38 [/SUP]Then early in the morning all the people came to Him in the temple to hear Him. Luke 21: 34-38


We see that the word says Jesus will come in the clouds. Jesus tells us be ready, nobody knows the hour, but live like Jesus is coming today. i'm not sure how eternity will come about, and how it will be. It doesn't seem our greatest imagination can grasp how great it will be. In my own mind i believe some things are going to happen when Gods people will need to depend on Him all the way. This is just in my mind thinking positive, thinking things like when things get crazier than they already are. Gods people will be taken care of, God will feed, shelter, and clothe us. i believe God will feed us with the hidden manna.

One thing i do believe, is that Jesus is real, and what He says goes. That is all that matters He will not hear, but, but, but He will see if you love Him or if its just lip service. Whatever happens Jesus will hear no excuses, we've all been warned, what ever happens to us when the earth shakes, is our choice. It sickens me when people blame God, because He let this or that happen to them. We bring it on ourselves then some choose to blame God in the problem. Instead of thanking Him through the provision of His protection in the problem.


 

abcdef

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Mar 30, 2016
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I don't see anything odd about it - he was saving them, but not for "something in the future" as in some yet to be prophetic "event"

Luke 21:22 For these be the days of vengeance, that ALL things which are written may be fulfilled.

You can speculate all you want - but Christ plainly said ALL things written would be fulfilled - so what is left in prophecy "for something in the future"?

Nothing.


You either accept what Jesus said in Luke 21:22 or you can twiddle around dreaming up end time scenarios till you end up in the grave as worm food just as confused as you started out.

This is what Gen 8:22, has to do with 70 ad.

Not everything was fulfilled by 70 ad.
 

PlainWord

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Jun 11, 2013
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Maybe at a glance it would seem that way but if you consider the things I have brought up from the beginning of the thread i.e. mark,AoD,Rev.13,ect. , and compare it to the things being discussed in the last page or two of this thread it is where the discussion ended up. So now is the time in this thread where the things about the mark are fitted into the story and it don’t seem to fit.

There's the thing about it, at this point in most threads on this subject neither of the two opposing sides can declare a decisive victory against the other and why is because none can decisively pinpoint the beast,mark ect....So at this point in most thread debates/discussions we are faced with going by gut instinct and one determines to see it Pre and the other future.

This is when in many threads the frustration sets in and the and everyone throws their hands up and says to themselves "I'm going with this because it seems more correct than the other",so to speak. It's the point I reference as "the foggy grey area". In times past,in other threads some have stated about the mark,beast ect. "even if we don’t see it's being fulfilled,it just must have" but even that’s not scriptural seeing Paul said "and the man of sin revealed" so he was not yet revealed and then he would be revealed afterwards. So we either do not understand him being revealed or he has not yet been revealed either way he still remains to be revealed.

I am one who believes Rev 11 and 13 did not happen back in AD 70 and are not part of the Great Tribulation of Israel spoken of by Jesus in Mat 24:21. The Beast of the Sea is equated figuratively with the first 3 beasts of Dan 7. Rome, being the 4th beast of Dan 7 therefore cannot be the beast of the sea. Therefore the "mark of the beast" is not related to Rome. That's my view anyway.

 

PlainWord

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Jun 11, 2013
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Babylon Tyre Rome and Jerusalem are all used figuratively for Babylon the great and the Harlot. Babylon in Revelation has two major features one is Idolatry and the other is Commerce with the need to import goods in particular those considered a luxury. Its end time destruction will create a serious financial crises that's why the merchants are so upset by it. We wont really know the identity of Babylon until all the 'Jigsaw pieces' come together but my guess is that it is somewhere in the Middle East because all the Empires mentioned in Scripture had territory there.
Mecca also sits on 7 hills and hosts a great false religion, having power over 1/4 of the earth, see below:

[SUP]7 [/SUP]When He opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth living creature saying, “Come and see.” [SUP]8 [/SUP]So I looked, and behold, a pale horse. And the name of him who sat on it was Death, and Hades followed with him. And power was given to them over a fourth of the earth, to kill with sword, with hunger, with death, and by the beasts of the earth.


The horse is not pale but is rather "green" (Chloros - which is translated green everywhere else).

The color "green" represents "paradise" in ISLAM. But instead of going to paradise when Jihadists die for Allah, we are told that Death (spiritual death) and Hades follows them.

ISLAM indeed today has power over 1/4 of the earth TO KILL. It doesn't say "they kill a fourth of the earth" rather they control a fourth of the earth and kill by various means:

SWORD - war, killing with arms
HUNGER - starvation runs rampant in most Islamic nations
DEATH - chemical, biological and/or nuclear weapons
BEAST - By nation sponsored terror

According to Forbes, Saudi Arabia, the host of Mecca and ISLAM, is the #1 exporter of oil in the world at 17%. In fact, 6 of the top 8 oil exporters in the world are from predominantly Muslim nations. The list of items in Rev 18 being sold to the Harlot represent luxury items. The Saudi kings and princes buy luxury items and they are the #1 country in terms of slavery.

Therefore, I believe Iran and it's allies including Russia will nuke the Saudis and the smoke of Mecca burning will be seen across the Red Sea. The ten horns (led by Iran and Russia) will attack and destroy her.


 

Locutus

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Feb 10, 2017
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This is what Gen 8:22, has to do with 70 ad.

Not everything was fulfilled by 70 ad.
You are right Gen 8:22 has nothing to do with 70 AD, it was not part of the prophetic corpus that needed to be fulfilled - God's statement is a promise of a covenant with no end - not a prophecy.

You need to read Gen 8:22 in it's context to correctly understand and apply it:

Gen 9:12 And God said, This is the token of the covenant which I make between me and you and every living creature that is with you, for perpetual generations.

Gen 9:16 And the bow shall be in the cloud; and I will look upon it, that I may remember the everlasting covenant between God and every living creature of all flesh that is upon the earth.


Paul basically says the same thing:

Eph 3:21 Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen.

Ages in Greek is genea - which means generations or my implication the "age" of a generation.

So Gen 8:22 is of no help to you there.
 

Locutus

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Feb 10, 2017
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. But this also brings up the question, "If clay represents the Jewish people, then why isn't clay mixed in throughout the statue?".
Not sure where you are going with this TL - I think sometimes we try and push the imagery too far, such as the two legs being some kind of east and west division of the Roman empire.

How else would one represent the image of a man without ending with two legs (they represent just one "empire") - I guess Daniel could have described and image with just one leg.

As for the toes - that can have a number of interpretations - the Jewish leaders mixed in with Rome, that as we know didn't work out
 
G

GaryA

Guest
Its obvious to me that you havn't considered the scriptures I gave in the post.
au contraire

I have considered those verses of scriptures quite well - along with many others - over and over again - "comparing scripture with scripture" -- and you can see them all on my Second Coming web page - just follow the link in my signature.

Content Last Modified: 2014-04-26


far from spiritualising them I used a perfectly Biblical method of interpreting them by comparing scripture with scripture.,
You might want to reconsider your method(s)...

Just sayin'... ;)


At his trial Jesus replies to the high priests question by quoting Daniels Son of Man passage.In that passage there is no mention of the Son of man being above the earth but of him being brought before the Father(Ancient of days) and being given dominion. The Father is in Heaven
Yes, I know. And, I used to believe this, too. But, then - further study helped me to realize something...

Keep studying.


Jesus ascended into Heaven in a cloud. He told the High Priest that he would see the Son of Man coming in the clouds of Heaven.
And, He meant it - literally - exactly as He stated it.


Clouds represent Gods Judgement in many places in the Bible.
This is where you went wrong -- making assumptions based on this.


Unless Caiphas repented he is hardly likely to be raptured at Christs return so how else could he see him but by perceiving him through the judgement experienced by Jerusalem and its Temple within his lifetime?
Number one -- you "assume" that he did not, thereby "skewing" your interpretation of scripture - by taking you away from:

"What does it [ actually ] say?"

This is the proper method of interpretation. Answering this question - first - leaves no room for mistakes due to assumptions about such things as whether or not someone was saved before they died. If you answer this question - then simply just believe what the Bible says -- chances are, you will not go wrong. You are less likely to 'spiritualize' something that should not be, etc. - making errors that people often make because they build and base their interpretations on "assumptions" instead of simply what the Bible says...

If Jesus told him that he would see the Son of Man coming in the clouds of Heaven, then we can count on that happening just exactly like Jesus said it would. We should believe what the Bible says -- not twist it into something else just because we may not understand how it can be possible. Establishing the fact of what scripture actually says is paramount in making a proper interpretation. Understanding how the details we are given can possibly be true is nice, but is secondary. The 'what' is primary. The 'how' is secondary.

In my studies, I have discovered that - if you will just go ahead and accept the truth about whatever the Bible actually says - and keep studying -- the secondary things like 'how' will eventually come later...

Number two -- has it ever occurred to you that God could possibly raise some [ certain ] lost people back to life in order to make them go through the Wrath at the Second Coming of Christ?

I am only saying that it is a possibility. There is a place or two in scripture that make me think this may possibly transpire.


The kingdom of God is a spiritual kingdom.
Yes - this is correct. However, it does not take anything away from the literal physical 1000-year reign of Christ on the Earth that the Bible indicates will occur after the Second Coming of Christ.


Christ reigns now in that kingdom.
I disagree. He is even now "the head of the church"; however, when the Bible talks about Christ "reigning" ( for 1000 years ), it is talking about a literal physical Christ-is-on-Earth reality involving an actual 1000-year span of time.


The Millennial Kingdom is temporary. The New Heavens and New Earth are eternal.
In the "big picture" of 'time' - yes, this is true. But, the Millennial Kingdom is still an actual 1000-year reign of Christ on the Earth.

:)
 
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GaryA

Guest
Matthew 26:

[SUP]64[/SUP] Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall
ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.


BTW - 'ye' is plural. Jesus is speaking to the high priest, but is referring to more-than-just-the-high-priest in His statement about seeing the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.

:)
 

Locutus

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Of course there is more than the high priest at the kangaroo court:

Mat 26:59 Now the chief priests, and elders, and all the council, sought false witness against Jesus, to put him to death;

Some of them would also be alive to see him coming in judgement on them.

Always pays to read context.
 

tanakh

Senior Member
Dec 1, 2015
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Matthew 26:

[SUP]64[/SUP] Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall
ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.


BTW - 'ye' is plural. Jesus is speaking to the high priest, but is referring to more-than-just-the-high-priest in His statement about seeing the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.

:)
However many people he was speaking to the fact remains that he was quoting from Daniel and the passage when read correctly shows that the Son of Man was going into the presence of God not coming back to earth