Are you preterist or merely 'modified post-trib'?

Locutus · Mar 2, 2017

Nobody really knows who started or when the church in Smyrna was founded.

It could have been Paul, or another - what we do know is that Luke claimed:

Acts 19:10) And this continued by the space of two years; so that all they which dwelt in Asia heard the word of the Lord Jesus, both Jews and Greeks.

You seem to like to read - try this by Kenneth Gentry - free pdf - he looks at both cases for an early and late date for the book of revelation:

http://www.garynorth.com/freebooks/docs/pdf/before_jerusalem_fell.pdf

Locutus · Mar 2, 2017

Another issue that arises is persecution by the apostate Jews:

Rev 2:8 And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna write; These things saith the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive;

Rev 2:9 I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.

Rev 2:10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.

It's highly unlikely that after 70 AD that Jews would have much power if any to persecute Jesus' followers that they had prior.

Luke 21:12 But before all these, they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name's sake.

The above was the condition from the start of the church and the Jews power to persecute ended with the war as they became the persecuted.

I think we are well within reason to believe that the church in Smyrna was founded before the war.

iamsoandso · Mar 2, 2017

Locutus said:

If you consider Revelation 2:10 in your former post if they were being told they would suffer tribulation 10 days and begin counting backwards 10 years then ad60? So bare in mind the things in Polycarps letter to the Philippians chapter 11 about Paul boasting about them at the beginning of his epistle and notice again that this would mean their(Smyrna's persecution) would have to begin 2-3 years before they "new the Lord/became a Church". Or else if 10 days meant 10 literal days then,their persecution was less than two weeks.

Remember https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johanan_ben_Zakai who I spoke of before? He ask Vespasian for a few gifts and continued right along with Israel’s business between the Roman government and the Jews. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gamaliel_II led after him and if you continue on they existed as representatives of Israel to about 350-400ad so synagogues and Jews and their influence on the Christians did not cease in ad70.

iamsoandso · Mar 2, 2017

here's a more correct date as to the Sanhedrin https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sanhedrin and Judaism after ad70.

Locutus · Mar 3, 2017

So you think the Jewish persecution of Christians continued unabated after the war with Rome?

Really???

iamsoandso · Mar 3, 2017

The issue is Polycarp and Smyrna CHURCH FATHERS: Martyrdom of Polycarp it is interesting to read from the beginning but in chapter 12 you will find the Jews in the midst of persecuting Polycarp after ad70.

Locutus · Mar 3, 2017

You need to quote what you are trying to present - I'm not going to search through the links you keep posting trying to piece together your points for you.

Polycrap was murdered by the Romans not the Jews as far as I know.

iamsoandso · Mar 3, 2017

Locutus said:

As far as you know,I am about a quarter way through the book you suggested I read and will relate what I gather from it when I Finnish.

abcdef · Mar 3, 2017

Locutus said:

Nice post.

I really enjoyed thinking about these scriptures and what you had to say about them. Sorry it took so long to answer.

I try to keep an open mind about things, so I have to be ready to rethink things from another point of view.

If Jesus applied the scripture to describe Rome in the Revelation, then it would be His words.

--

We agree that Jesus applies these terms (blood of Abel etc.) to Jerusalem.

--

But wasn't Rome guilty of the same thing as Jerusalem?

It says that all the blood shed upon the earth, the blood of Able, etc., would be "come upon them".

But how can that be? They weren't around when Able was killed.

It was because they were going to kill Jesus.

--

But who actually Killed Jesus?

Who did the Jews make a pact with to kill Jesus?

("We have no king but Caesar" Jn 19:15)

Do you think that when Pilate washed his hands, that it removed his guilt before God for crucifying Jesus? An innocent man?

Did it remove the guilt and penalty from Rome?

It was Romans that scourged and crucified Jesus, under the orders of Pilate.

--

Clearly, Jesus uses that application of the description to Jerusalem,

But that doesn't mean that it cannot apply to Rome.

Since the Romans shared in the shedding of the blood of Jesus,

The description given, about the responsibility of Jesus' death, could be applied to Rome also.

--

The Revelation was written after the destruction of Jerusalem.

The woman harlot of Rev 17 is Rome.

Not everything in the Bible was fulfilled by 70 ad.

(these rigid ideas are distorting the view)

Locutus · Mar 3, 2017

Who killed Jesus?

Where did the apostles place the blame?

Acts 3:13 The God of Abraham, and of Isaac, and of Jacob, the God of our fathers, hath glorified his Son Jesus; whom ye delivered up, and denied him in the presence of Pilate, when he was determined to let him go.

Acts 3:14 But ye denied the Holy One and the Just, and desired a murderer to be granted unto you;

Acts 3:15 KJV And killed the Prince of life, whom God hath raised from the dead; whereof we are witnesses.(1 Th 2:14 KJV) For ye, brethren, became followers of the churches of God which in Judaea are in Christ Jesus: for ye also have suffered like things of your own countrymen, even as they have of the Jews:

1 Th 2:14 For ye, brethren, became followers of the churches of God which in Judaea are in Christ Jesus: for ye also have suffered like things of your own countrymen, even as they have of the Jews:

1 Th 2:15 Who both killed the Lord Jesus, and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they please not God, and are contrary to all men:

The inspired apostles laid the blame squarely at the feet of the Jews.

"As for dating the book of revelation" - this presents a very good case:

http://www.garynorth.com/freebooks/docs/pdf/before_jerusalem_fell.pdf

While Kenneth Gentry is a post-millennialist - he presents some well "argued" points.

abcdef · Mar 3, 2017

Locutus said:

All these nations exist today. But three do not have dominion over the saints, Dan. 7:12.

Rome did have dominion over Israel until 1967, when Israel was restored to Jerusalem.

First as the sea beast (Roman Empire), and then as the image of Rome the earth beast, (RCC).

---

The stone that strikes the statue is Jesus at the 2nd/final resurrection, not the establishment of the Pentecost Kingdom.

The Kingdom is established long before the stone strikes,

At the organs of reproduction and discharge.

(the organ of reproduction as the day of Pentecost, and the organs of discharge as the dest of Jerusalem.)

These events happen before the legs divide, Rome East/West, the kingdom causes the division, Dan 2:44 it "break in pieces" the Roman Empire.

The consuming is the conversion of the people of the living statue into the Pentecost Kingdom.

Yes

True, except that the shaking Paul is referring to here is the shaking of things "that are made", created.

This material heaven and material earth that we still see now, 1 Cor 4:18, must still be shaken.

Locutus · Mar 3, 2017

abcdef said:

Look at the context - he's contrasting the earthly kingdom of Israel and earthly temple which was "shakeable" as against the kingdom that would be left that was formed at Pentecost.

And the lead up to the context:

Heb 12:22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels.

There is no destruction of the material heaven and earth - they are in perfectly good working order...

abcdef · Mar 3, 2017

Locutus said:

The Romans still had the blood of Jesus on their hands.

Able to Jesus and beyond.

--

Do you think that the apostles would write anything in their letters that would speak against Rome, directly, or by name?

Who would care if John said directly that Jerusalem was the woman of Rev 17?

Why would Rome care if John said that Jerusalem was going to be destroyed by Rome? What Roman would care?

Why wouldn't he just say Jerusalem is going to fall to Rome?

The Romans would have liked that!

He is talking about the fall of Rome, that's why.

----

The woman/city sits on the hills of the 7 headed beast, the 4th beast and iron legs, the city is the beast, Rome.

Locutus · Mar 3, 2017

How can the Romans be responsible for the blood of Able?

Now you are just contradicting scripture because it does not line up with your "theology".

You have to show where John changes the identity of the "great city" from Jerusalem "where also our Lord was killed"

abcdef · Mar 4, 2017

Locutus said:

Did you really even read my post?

Rome killed Jesus.

Yes the Jews killed Him, but the Romans literally killed Jesus.

And you think that the Romans are blameless in regards to His death?

Did the Jews literally scourge Him?

Were the Jews the ones who literally crucified Jesus?

They were responsible, yes, but it was Romans who did the work.

---

If anybody had written in a letter, anything against Caesar or Rome, it would mean death, if they were caught.

This is the main reason that we find few references to Caesar and Rome in the NT and Rev..

No, I'm showing that there are other possibilities in addition to what you say.

[yQUOTE] ou have to show where John changes the identity of the "great city" from Jerusalem "where also our Lord was killed"

[/QUOTE]

The dragon with 7 heads and 10 horns is Rome, we agree on this I think.

The dragon has 7 heads which are also 7 hills/mountains Rev 17:9.

The 7 hills are the heads and the heads are the hills.

They cannot be separated, they are one,

The hills are Rome.

The woman is a city that sits on the 7 hills of Rome.

-----

Jerusalem does not sit on the 7 hills of Rome.

Rome sits on the 7 hills of Rome.

It can be no other city.

======

Locutus · Mar 4, 2017

Of course I read your post:

"The Romans still had the blood of Jesus on their hands.

Able to Jesus and beyond."

I asked how the Romans had Able's blood on their hands.

If I hire a hit man to take out the pope who is guilty of the crime - me, the hit man too.

But that does not solve your dilemma:

Luke 11:50 That the blood of all the prophets, which was shed from the foundation of the world, may be required of this generation;

Luke 11:51 From the blood of Abel unto the blood of Zacharias, which perished between the altar and the temple: verily I say unto you, It shall be required of this generation.

If it was required of that generation of Jews that heard him how can some later Romans have it required of it them as well?

That's two "requires of judgment whereas revelation speaks only of one and.

Now if Jesus had said "It shall be required of this generation and a generation of Romans in the end of the age" you might have a leg to stand on - but we both know he did not say that.

Mat 27:24 When Pilate saw that he could prevail nothing, but that rather a tumult was made, he took water, and washed his hands before the multitude, saying, I am innocent of the blood of this just person: see ye to it.

Mat 27:25 Then answered all the people, and said, His blood be on us, and on our children.

God had given the power of the sword to the Romans over the Jews - Rom 13:4, they required his death according to Jewish law.

abcdef · Mar 4, 2017

Locutus said:

Of course I read your post:

"The Romans still had the blood of Jesus on their hands.

Able to Jesus and beyond."

I asked how the Romans had Able's blood on their hands.

If I hire a hit man to take out the pope who is guilty of the crime - me, the hit man too.

But that does not solve your dilemma:

Luke 11:50 That the blood of all the prophets, which was shed from the foundation of the world, may be required of this generation;

Luke 11:51 From the blood of Abel unto the blood of Zacharias, which perished between the altar and the temple: verily I say unto you, It shall be required of this generation.

If it was required of that generation of Jews that heard him how can some later Romans have it required of it them as well?

That's two "requires of judgment whereas revelation speaks only of one and.

Now if Jesus had said "It shall be required of this generation and a generation of Romans in the end of the age" you might have a leg to stand on - but we both know he did not say that.

Mat 27:24 When Pilate saw that he could prevail nothing, but that rather a tumult was made, he took water, and washed his hands before the multitude, saying, I am innocent of the blood of this just person: see ye to it.

Mat 27:25 Then answered all the people, and said, His blood be on us, and on our children.

God had given the power of the sword to the Romans over the Jews - Rom 13:4, they required his death according to Jewish law.

As you point out, both are guilty of the same crime, that's how Rome shares the guilt.

If Jesus, in the Rev, applies the words to Rome, then they are about Rome.

The woman of Rev 17 is Rome.

--

I am willing to discuss your points,

But you seem unwilling to respond to my questions and posts.

tanakh · Mar 4, 2017

MattTooFor said:

I consider myself more as a partial Preterest. I do not believe that everything happened in AD 70 but that there is a second coming and final judgement ahead.

The reason I reject the Pre Trib position is that it is part of John Nelson Darbys Dispensational teaching. One of the main teachings of Darby is that God has two separate plans for humanity. One for national Israel and the Jews and one for the church and the Gentiles. The Church according to this teaching only exists because the Jews rejected Christs offer of the kingdom so the Church was created to do what National Israel was supposed do and that is turn the Gentile Nations back to God. So the 'Church Age' is seen as a temporary measure that will exist until God turns his attention once again to Israel.
In order for God to fulfill his plan for Israel something has to be done with the Church. The answer according to Darby is
the Pre Tribulation Rapture. The Church leaves the Earth and only the Jews and unbelievers are left. God then saves an unspecified number of Jews that range from 144000 to all of them depending on whom you ask and unbelieving Gentiles are destroyed in the tribulation.

All this appears to go against traditional christian teaching. Instead of Jesus being the only way to the Father it seems that being Jewish is a viable alternative if you don.t mind the tribulation and slavishly following the Old Covenant. Also Paul it seems was talking rubbish when he said both Jew and Gentile were all one in Christ Jesus. The early Jewish Church members and the Apostles must have been in a constant state of spiritual schizophrenia not knowing which of Darby's group they belonged to.

Locutus · Mar 4, 2017

abcdef said:

You mean like this:

Jerusalem does not sit on the 7 hills of Rome.

Rome sits on the 7 hills of Rome.

It can be no other city.

Jerusalem is one of many cities that are said to sit on seven hills. So this is not a conclusive point.

You have Rome sitting on Rome - makes no logical sense - like half of what you post - I can't address every one of your logical inconsistencies.

I've made various points that you have basically not responded to - your style is one of posting what appears to you to be valid rebuttals of what I've stated, but really are unsupported statements.

Of course there can only be one city in revelation that failed in its covenant keeping with God - thus the curses, vial, seals and trumpets fell on them.

Rome never was and is not in a covenant relationship with God with it's attendant blessings and curses provisions.

John names the city that was in a covenant relationship with God, Israel from it's inception till it went *poof* in the 66-70 AD war with Rome.

John start his visions located in Jerusalem:

Rev 11:7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.

Rev 11:8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

John continues his series of visions with no change in location describing the old covenant curses poured out on the great city.

abcdef · Mar 4, 2017

Locutus said:

The 7 hills are 7 heads that are specifically Rome.

You agree that the beast is Rome,

Will you now try to change the identity of the 7 hills/heads to another city, another set of 7 hills somewhere else?

The 7 hills/heads can only be Rome.

And the only city that can be on those 7 hills is Rome.

You are exactly right!

Rome is the city that sits on the 7 hills that are the 7 heads of the beast.

From my viewpoint, your logic is the one with the inconsistencies.

Do you think that this planet will last forever?

I already showed that it won't, Gen 8:22.

I have tried to respond to your posts, perhaps you missed my response in post 533.

The seals and trumpets appear to be on Israel.

But the vials seem to be related to the beast of Rome. Yes?

yes

Isle of Patmos?

Yes, this passage is about Jerusalem.

But the dialog changes to the beast in ch 12.

After the 7th trumpet, the description of the Roman beast begins.

The prophecies and descriptions of the beast continue from Rev12 thru Rev 19. (Rev 20 begins a new time line)

Are you preterist or merely 'modified post-trib'?

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