Armstrongites, Anti-Trinitarians, Cultists, anti-holiday Christians and Don Quixote

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sparkman

Guest
#1
At first glance, you may think that the first four items on the list in the heading are unlike the last one.

The story of Don Quixote is hilarious. An old man with poor vision imagines that windmills are giants. Perceiving the imminent danger, he charges them on his steed, lunging forward with his lance, ready to do serious battle.

This story makes us laugh at the naivete and foolishness of the old man. However, do we engage in similar antics as Christians? Are we fighting imaginary enemies due to our poor spiritual vision, which is myopic and ill-informed?

As a former Armstrongite, I believed the teachings of Herbert Armstrong. In essence, Herbert Armstrong claimed that he was commissioned by God to restore "true Christianity" to the world. He denied the Christianity of anyone outside of his organization, declaring them to be a "counterfeit Christianity" preaching a "false gospel" and that its ministers were "ministers of Satan".

Some of the issues he claimed made organized Christianity false included non-observance of the Saturday Sabbath, festivals, and clean/unclean meat laws, their view of the nature of God (Trinitarianism), and observance of worldly holidays (Christmas and Easter).

His contempt for other Christians and attacks upon them were obvious, calling them "dumb sheep" headed to the slaughter on his television program.

I was 22 years old and wasn't brought up in a good environment to learn sound Christian doctrine (my mother was an Armstrongite), so I cut myself some slack on getting involved in it, and funding Armstrong's foolish attacks upon Christianity. I have since repented of my ignorance and intolerance of orthodox Christianity.

I have little doubt that some individuals who promote false teachings know that they are in error, but perpetuate their errors for financial gain or other reasons. They are destined for eternal punishment unless they repent.

For the rest, I encourage you to examine whether you, like Don Quixote, are fighting an imaginary enemy. It will be a sad thing if you spend the rest of your life following nonsense, and attacking brothers in Christ that you perceive as enemies, when you can spend it reaching others with the real gospel...about how the unique God-man came to die on a cross for our sins, and how others can be forgiven for their sins through his perfect sacrifice.

For anti-Trinitarians, I recommend the book "Forgotten Trinity" by James White.

For those who believe that observing Sabbath and Holy Days are a requirement of salvation, and that non-observers are not Christians, I recommend "Sabbath in Christ" by Dale Ratzlaff.

None of these remarks are meant for my friends who observe the Sabbath, annual festivals, or clean/unclean meat laws but don't claim observance is required for salvation in any way.
 
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FreeNChrist

Guest
#2
But, have you seen what God has done with that organization? Taking one of the most legalistic heretical organizations and their deceptive little magazine and turning it for good, into one of the loudest proclaimers of God's grace?

Plain Truth Magazine
 
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sparkman

Guest
#3
But, have you seen what God has done with that organization? Taking one of the most legalistic heretical organizations and their deceptive little magazine and turning it for good, into one of the loudest proclaimers of God's grace?

Plain Truth Magazine
Right. I'm not criticizing the current organization, but some of those who believe the old doctrines. There are a number of splinter groups who believe the same thing that Herbert Armstrong taught previously. Restored Church of God, United Church of God, Philadelphia Church of God, Living Church of God, Global Church of God.

Actually I am drawing this comparison with others who hold odd theologies and claim to be the ones who are enlightened and that orthodox Christianity is in error...not just Armstrongites. Some anti-Trinitarians do the same thing. They claim that Christianity has been corrupted by paganism, usually relating it to the Council at Nicea or remnants of Roman Catholicism.

With regards to Grace Communion International (old Worldwide Church of God), they still hold a theology related to Karl Barth and Thomas Torrance which claims near universalism (everyone is saved; they just don't know it yet), so I'm not a big fan of their adherence to this doctrine.

I don't consider them to be heretical but I wouldn't want to belong to them.

By the way I like your avatar.
 
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FreeNChrist

Guest
#4
Right. I'm not criticizing the current organization.....

With regards to Grace Communion International (old Worldwide Church of God), they still hold a theology related to Karl Barth and Thomas Torrance which claims near universalism (everyone is saved; they just don't know it yet), so I'm not a big fan of their adherence to this doctrine.

I don't consider them to be heretical but I wouldn't want to belong to them.

By the way I like your avatar.
Ummm, but you just criticized them. I love all those guys. And none of them are universalists.

They would all like my avatar also.
 
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sparkman

Guest
#5
Ummm, but you just criticized them. I love all those guys. And none of them are universalists.

They would all like my avatar also.
They are virtual universalists. The NT is pretty clear in stating that God is calling all to repentance now, and that the majority don't accept the gospel message and are on the way to destruction.

My understanding is that GCI, Barth, and Torrance don't believe this.

Armstrongites believe in a post-mortem salvation that the vast majority of mankind (everyone else except Armstrongites) will participate in. In other words, they believe that everyone now is spiritually blinded but themselves (who they consider to be the elect), and that the blinded ones (everyone else) are going to receive a post-mortem salvation opportunity in a period of time following the Millennium called "the judgment". They assert that when Christ spoke of this judgment, he was talking about this post-mortem salvation opportunity when the majority of mankind would be saved. This is near-universalism.

When GCI changed the majority of its bad doctrines, they started teaching Karl Barth/Thomas Torrance view, which is virtual universalism. So, instead of acknowledging that Scripture teaches that all are being called to repentance now, like Acts 17:30 says, they started teaching this bad doctrine. They claim that everyone is already saved, but they simply don't know it yet. They may think that a small number will be lost, but it is very few.

So, I view their acceptance of the teachings of Karl Barth and Thomas Torrance as being a substitute for their former position regarding the second resurrection. They basically are attempting to repackage their former beliefs in this area in a different manner. It would be great if it's true, but it runs counter to Scripture.

I do not know how they get around the clear teachings of Romans 1 and 2 that all of mankind knows God exists, and that they can rightly be held accountable for their sins now because of it. There are also tons of New Testament references to the fact that the majority of mankind is rebelling against God and refusing to come to repentance.

If you have a better understanding of the teachings of Barth and Torrance on this subject or can correct my understanding of it, please feel free to enlighten me. I understand Barth had some good teachings in some areas of theology despite this near-universalist position.

I used the phrase "virtual universalists" because they believe almost all of mankind will be saved. I believe they acknowledge some small number will be lost. Scripture tells a different story. They ignore a lot of Scriptures to make their assertions.
 
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FreeNChrist

Guest
#6
They are virtual universalists. The NT is pretty clear in stating that God is calling all to repentance now, and that the majority don't accept the gospel message and are on the way to destruction.

My understanding is that GCI, Barth, and Torrance don't believe this.
Your understanding is incorrect, and you are slandering people and whole ministries because of it.
 
Nov 22, 2015
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#7
They had a Saul to Paul experience!.. The Lord is bringing all of us out of our religious mindsets to learn of the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ!. :)


But, have you seen what God has done with that organization? Taking one of the most legalistic heretical organizations and their deceptive little magazine and turning it for good, into one of the loudest proclaimers of God's grace?

Plain Truth Magazine
 
Nov 22, 2015
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#8
There is a vast difference between a believing in Jesus' "universal finished work for mankind" and being a "universalists"
 
Nov 22, 2015
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#9
I like the way one guy wrote about it. I am not a universalists but I am hopeful all people will receive the grace of the Lord Jesus...obviously scripture shows that all do not receive what is already theirs in the finished work of Jesus....kinda unbelievable that people would reject Him...
 
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sparkman

Guest
#10
Your understanding is incorrect, and you are slandering people and whole ministries because of it.
Could you explain how I am incorrect?

I have read their materials and that's the understanding I came away with. I specifically asked you to clarify how I was wrong if I am wrong.

I know exactly what Armstrongites taught as I was one of them. Regarding the this particular topic, I talked to my former WCG pastor about that, who was part of GCI until he retired, at lunch a few months ago, and he told me that he didn't totally agree with the Torrance view that GCI had adopted either. Not only that, they also ordain women as pastors and some of the pastors believe in the moral example view of the atonement, which IS heresy. If ANYONE denies the substitutionary atonement, they are stepping into the realm of total heresy. I don't know why WCG would allow any pastor to hold that view.

I didn't mention that, but those are two additional concerns I have with them. The official church teaching might not be the moral example view, but apparently they have allowed some pastors to have this view.
 
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sparkman

Guest
#11
Your understanding is incorrect, and you are slandering people and whole ministries because of it.
I wasn't able to modify my post..in essence I'm asking you how my understanding is wrong.

Not only did I read materials on their website in regards to their position which echoes the teachings of Torrance and Barth, I also discussed the issue with my former GCI pastor. He didn't note any differences in what my understanding of their teachings were.

In addition, they also ordain women pastors and some of their pastors hold the moral example view of the atonement, which denies the substitutionary atonement. I don't think this is the predominant view, but GCI apparently allows the latitude amongst their pastors to hold this view. The moral example view of the atonement denies that Christ died for our sins, but that he simply died as a moral example.

The other issue I noted while talking with him is that apparently some of the ministry holds an "open theist" view of God which says that God doesn't have exhaustive foreknowledge. All of these things are liberal theology...part of why I left them. It seems like they went from Armstrongism to liberal theology which isn't a good thing.
 
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sparkman

Guest
#12
Your understanding is incorrect, and you are slandering people and whole ministries because of it.
By the way, if you DON'T think they teach virtual universalism, view this video or the written transcript of it. Joe Tkach, their leader, clearly says that they do think this.

https://www.gci.org/SpOL311

It is obvious that GCI believes virtually everyone will be saved, which is counter to Scriptural teaching.

In his remarks, he clearly states that he thinks there is a post-mortem opportunity to accept Christ's sacrifice. There is absolutely no biblical basis for that view. The NT constantly points to the need to place one's faith in Jesus Christ or face eternal punishment. This new view is simply a slight variation of Herbert Armstrong's teachings repackaged in a form that is more acceptable to evangelical Christians, because it carries the name of Karl Barth and Thomas Torrance.

They have discarded significant portions of Armstrongism, but in this area they are still holding onto unorthodox teachings, and they are not apologetic about it.

So, I think your remarks regarding my assertions are in error. I have not misrepresented their position, and this page clearly proves it. I believe you should be more careful before accusing someone of that.
 
Nov 22, 2015
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#13
I watched the video and he definitely said that they do not believe in universalism. He said he finds it difficult to believe how anyone could reject God's love but scripture does say they do.

He was saying no one knows for sure what happens when a person dies....that was it...He didn't mention anything about Barth or Torrance altho I do know that they talk about all humanity was included in Christ's death on the cross as it says in Romans 5:15-21

Maybe they get the view of the unknown after death from when Jesus preached the gospel to the people who dies during the flood of Noah. No one knows what happened when Jesus preached the gospel to them. Peter talks about it here..what it means..I don't know...

1 Peter 3:18-20 (NASB)
[SUP]18 [/SUP] For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit;
[SUP]19 [/SUP] in which also He went and made proclamation to the spirits now in prison,
[SUP]20 [/SUP] who once were disobedient, when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through the water.

I looked up the word "proclamation " and it is the exact greek word for preaching the gospel...as I say..I don't know what that means. We need to preach the gospel of the grace of our Lord Jesus to all people! He is awesome!



By the way, if you DON'T think they teach virtual universalism, view this video or the written transcript of it. Joe Tkach, their leader, clearly says that they do think this.

https://www.gci.org/SpOL311

It is obvious that GCI believes virtually everyone will be saved, which is counter to Scriptural teaching.

In his remarks, he clearly states that he thinks there is a post-mortem opportunity to accept Christ's sacrifice. There is absolutely no biblical basis for that view. The NT constantly points to the need to place one's faith in Jesus Christ or face eternal punishment. This new view is simply a slight variation of Herbert Armstrong's teachings repackaged in a form that is more acceptable to evangelical Christians, because it carries the name of Karl Barth and Thomas Torrance.

They have discarded significant portions of Armstrongism, but in this area they are still holding onto unorthodox teachings, and they are not apologetic about it.

So, I think your remarks regarding my assertions are in error. I have not misrepresented their position, and this page clearly proves it. I believe you should be more careful before accusing someone of that.
 
Jan 15, 2011
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#14
Interesting how you lump "Anti Holiday" Christians in there. Just because Armstrong held to a set of beliefs doesn't mean that everything he held to is wrong. :p Neither does it mean we should condemn those who want to be obedient to the whole counsel of God ;).
 
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sparkman

Guest
#15
Interesting how you lump "Anti Holiday" Christians in there. Just because Armstrong held to a set of beliefs doesn't mean that everything he held to is wrong. :p Neither does it mean we should condemn those who want to be obedient to the whole counsel of God ;).
Show me in the Bible where it forbids either Christmas or Easter...Hint: Jeremiah 10 isn't talking about a Christmas tree.
 
Oct 21, 2015
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#16
I watched the video and he definitely said that they do not believe in universalism. He said he finds it difficult to believe how anyone could reject God's love but scripture does say they do.

He was saying no one knows for sure what happens when a person dies....that was it...He didn't mention anything about Barth or Torrance altho I do know that they talk about all humanity was included in Christ's death on the cross as it says in Romans 5:15-21

Maybe they get the view of the unknown after death from when Jesus preached the gospel to the people who dies during the flood of Noah. No one knows what happened when Jesus preached the gospel to them. Peter talks about it here..what it means..I don't know...

1 Peter 3:18-20 (NASB)
[SUP]18 [/SUP] For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit;
[SUP]19 [/SUP] in which also He went and made proclamation to the spirits now in prison,
[SUP]20 [/SUP] who once were disobedient, when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through the water.

I looked up the word "proclamation " and it is the exact greek word for preaching the gospel...as I say..I don't know what that means. We need to preach the gospel of the grace of our Lord Jesus to all people! He is awesome!
Didn't Jesus go and preach the gospel to those who had died I OT times for none of them could attain heaven by a true righteousness of law keeping? All needed Christs death at Calvary to attain heaven, those who died before he lived as well as those who lived after him
 
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sparkman

Guest
#17
I watched the video and he definitely said that they do not believe in universalism. He said he finds it difficult to believe how anyone could reject God's love but scripture does say they do.

He was saying no one knows for sure what happens when a person dies....that was it...He didn't mention anything about Barth or Torrance altho I do know that they talk about all humanity was included in Christ's death on the cross as it says in Romans 5:15-21

Maybe they get the view of the unknown after death from when Jesus preached the gospel to the people who dies during the flood of Noah. No one knows what happened when Jesus preached the gospel to them. Peter talks about it here..what it means..I don't know...

1 Peter 3:18-20 (NASB)
[SUP]18 [/SUP] For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit;
[SUP]19 [/SUP] in which also He went and made proclamation to the spirits now in prison,
[SUP]20 [/SUP] who once were disobedient, when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through the water.

I looked up the word "proclamation " and it is the exact greek word for preaching the gospel...as I say..I don't know what that means. We need to preach the gospel of the grace of our Lord Jesus to all people! He is awesome!
They get the idea from their former teaching on the second resurrection. They simply found another way to support the same concept of postmortem salvation.

By the way, from my understanding, they also think that Mormons and JWs are saved...the phraseology that they employ is that they are "included"..so there is no issue with regards to doctrinal error in their theology..no consequences whatsoever for it.

I don't know how they reconcile Matthew 7 with their views..it is plain that Christ told some who thought they knew him that they did not, and were going to eternal punishment.

It would be nice if virtually everyone would be saved, but Scripture doesn't paint that picture.

If you read between the lines, Joe DOES believe in virtual universalism. I did not say he believes in complete universalism, but he thinks the vast majority of mankind will be saved. He also talks about a post-mortem salvation opportunity.....that people can be saved after an unrepentant, rebellious life.

If someone who actually interfaces with them more can refute these ideas, feel free to, but from what I've seen on the website and heard from a GCI pastor that is their position.

In addition, I know someone personally who counseled with a GCI pastor in 2011. He was a former WCG member and was struggling with homosexuality. The pastor told him that if he was in the same position, he just wouldn't worry about it. I don't think that is an overall GCI position either, but it shows they are running a pretty loose ship if they allow the ministers to make such statements. The individual I am talking about is involved with a sound evangelical church now and the issue is no longer a problem.

So, I don't have much confidence in them. The changes which were made were necessary and liberated a lot of people, but I wouldn't recommend that anyone attend their fellowships due to these things.
 
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FreeNChrist

Guest
#18
They get the idea from their former teaching on the second resurrection. They simply found another way to support the same concept of postmortem salvation.

By the way, from my understanding, they also think that Mormons and JWs are saved...the phraseology that they employ is that they are "included"..so there is no issue with regards to doctrinal error in their theology..no consequences whatsoever for it.

I don't know how they reconcile Matthew 7 with their views..it is plain that Christ told some who thought they knew him that they did not, and were going to eternal punishment.

It would be nice if virtually everyone would be saved, but Scripture doesn't paint that picture.

If you read between the lines, Joe DOES believe in virtual universalism. I did not say he believes in complete universalism, but he thinks the vast majority of mankind will be saved. He also talks about a post-mortem salvation opportunity.....that people can be saved after an unrepentant, rebellious life.

If someone who actually interfaces with them more can refute these ideas, feel free to, but from what I've seen on the website and heard from a GCI pastor that is their position.

In addition, I know someone personally who counseled with a GCI pastor in 2011. He was a former WCG member and was struggling with homosexuality. The pastor told him that if he was in the same position, he just wouldn't worry about it. I don't think that is an overall GCI position either, but it shows they are running a pretty loose ship if they allow the ministers to make such statements. The individual I am talking about is involved with a sound evangelical church now and the issue is no longer a problem.

So, I don't have much confidence in them. The changes which were made were necessary and liberated a lot of people, but I wouldn't recommend that anyone attend their fellowships due to these things.


I encourage you to examine whether you, like Don Quixote, are fighting an imaginary enemy.
 
Nov 22, 2015
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#19
Well...we do know that there will be so many people in heaven that it is hard to number them all.. they come from every tribe and nation and people and tongue ( this would include all languages ever spoken..like Aztec..Inca..Vulcan....no wait..that's Star Trek..lol )


Revelation 5:9 (NASB)
[SUP]9 [/SUP] And they *sang a new song, saying, "Worthy are You to take the book and to break its seals; for You were slain, and purchased for God with Your blood men from every tribe and tongue and people and nation.
 

KohenMatt

Senior Member
Jun 28, 2013
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#20
Show me in the Bible where it forbids either Christmas or Easter...Hint: Jeremiah 10 isn't talking about a Christmas tree.
Show us in the Bible where anyone taught or celebrated christmas or easter, or ANY holiday not prescribed by God. Or any Scriptural example of God's people reclaiming a pagan holiday or tradition as their own.