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S
Obviously Christmas and Easter are not referred to in the Bible, unless you have the flawed KJV which uses Easter to refer to Passover.
Regarding other holidays not ordained by God, Feast of Dedication, which Christ observed,would be one of them, right off the top of my head. John 10:22-23 is one of the references to it. Some Pharisees fasted two days a week so that was a self-imposed observance.
Judges 11:40 speaks about the annual custom of mourning for Jephthah's daughter for four days.
Esther 9:19 speaks of the Jews having an observance regarding their deliverance at that time as a custom, one which involved exchanging gifts.
Zechariah 8:19 records that the Jews had several fast observances related to events in their history. Fourth month (taking of Jerusalem), fifth month (ruin of the temple), seventh month (murder of Gedaliah and tenth month (siege of Jerusalem).
So there were several days that were not ordained of God that were observed by Israelites.
In addition, Christ's birth was celebrated AS A SHADOW by the Feast of Tabernacles UNDER THE OLD COVENANT which is no longer applicable to NEW COVENANT believers (Colossians 2:16-17). I do not think the Feast of Tabernacles AT ALL refers to the Millennium, as most festival observers claim, but is exclusively about the Incarnation. If you can conclusively prove that the Feast of Tabernacles related to the Millennium, I'd appreciate seeing the references. I was taught that as an Armstrongite but I can only see weak reasoning employed to suggest that.
Armstrong taught that in order to claim that the festivals were sequential in nature and prophetic in a strict timeline sense. I no longer hold that view, because one must really stretch to fit Feast of Tabernacles (related to the Incarnation) and Day of Atonement (related to the atonement of Christ) into that scenario. I know their explanations on how these fit in a timeline, but they are not plausible
In addition, the only thing pagan about Easter is the English name. The rest of the world uses a different word, Paschal, which refers to the Passover.
What do I see going on in my church environment regarding Christmas? I go to services where the prophecies about the birth of Christ are discussed. Same thing with the Lenten season..sermons talking about the crucifixion and resurrection. I DON'T see anyone worshipping ANYTHING that is pagan. OH.......and....ALWAYS...the pastor preaches a very clear presentation of the gospel message on Easter services..how pagan of him!!!!!! Someone might get saved on a pagan holiday
The pastor mentions that the time of Christ's birth may have been at a different time. They aren't a bunch of spiritual dunces like some of the anti-holiday people make them out to be.
It's juvenile to claim that observers are worshipping the Christmas tree...they throw it in the trash. Not a good way to treat your god if you thought he was a god
It's juvenile to claim that they are compromising Christianity. Most of this stuff comes from people who are immature and fixated on proclaiming their own righteousness, so that they can distinguish themselves from Christians around them as more holy and righteous. Be holy and righteous sitting alone in your rooms on those days.
My guess that many of the non-observers either 1) do socialize with people on Christmas but claim you aren't doing Christmas or 2) are anti-social person who may not have a family or friends, so being alone on that day is no real sacrifice..it just gives them an excuse to be alone.
I fit in category 2 when I was an anti-holiday observer. As a younger person I was pretty anti social and it was no sacrifice for me to sit in my room alone proclaiming my righteousness above all the other "pagans" who were socializing with each other. Maybe somehow I thought my spiritual light would shine being absent from the rest of the family..I don't know..but those who think it serves the furtherance of the Gospel in any manner to isolate themselves from observances are wrong.
Regarding any pagan roots, Christians were allowed to eat meat which had been previously designated to idols, with no conscience issue. I consider the same principle in regards to Christmas and Easter. If the days themselves had some previous pagan meaning associated with them, there is no issue with taking the days and re-purposing them, just like Christians re-purposed the meat sacrificed to idols.
By the way, the underlying mentality is that God is some type of being who allows things like these holidays to exist just so he can catch people up on a technicality and eternally punish them. I find this whole view of God to be juvenile and really pretty insulting to Him, like the Saturday/Sunday issue.
That all being said, Romans 14 gives Christians the right to make decisions about observances of days so no one HAS to observe these holidays either, just like the same liberality should be granted to Sabbath and festival observers. I know THEY don't think others should have the liberality to practice other things, but Romans 14 gives them that.
I wish I hadn't mentioned holidays in this thread, as most of the anti-holidays crowd aren't those who use these things as defining characteristics of who is a Christian and who is not.
Regarding other holidays not ordained by God, Feast of Dedication, which Christ observed,would be one of them, right off the top of my head. John 10:22-23 is one of the references to it. Some Pharisees fasted two days a week so that was a self-imposed observance.
Judges 11:40 speaks about the annual custom of mourning for Jephthah's daughter for four days.
Esther 9:19 speaks of the Jews having an observance regarding their deliverance at that time as a custom, one which involved exchanging gifts.
Zechariah 8:19 records that the Jews had several fast observances related to events in their history. Fourth month (taking of Jerusalem), fifth month (ruin of the temple), seventh month (murder of Gedaliah and tenth month (siege of Jerusalem).
So there were several days that were not ordained of God that were observed by Israelites.
In addition, Christ's birth was celebrated AS A SHADOW by the Feast of Tabernacles UNDER THE OLD COVENANT which is no longer applicable to NEW COVENANT believers (Colossians 2:16-17). I do not think the Feast of Tabernacles AT ALL refers to the Millennium, as most festival observers claim, but is exclusively about the Incarnation. If you can conclusively prove that the Feast of Tabernacles related to the Millennium, I'd appreciate seeing the references. I was taught that as an Armstrongite but I can only see weak reasoning employed to suggest that.
Armstrong taught that in order to claim that the festivals were sequential in nature and prophetic in a strict timeline sense. I no longer hold that view, because one must really stretch to fit Feast of Tabernacles (related to the Incarnation) and Day of Atonement (related to the atonement of Christ) into that scenario. I know their explanations on how these fit in a timeline, but they are not plausible
In addition, the only thing pagan about Easter is the English name. The rest of the world uses a different word, Paschal, which refers to the Passover.
What do I see going on in my church environment regarding Christmas? I go to services where the prophecies about the birth of Christ are discussed. Same thing with the Lenten season..sermons talking about the crucifixion and resurrection. I DON'T see anyone worshipping ANYTHING that is pagan. OH.......and....ALWAYS...the pastor preaches a very clear presentation of the gospel message on Easter services..how pagan of him!!!!!! Someone might get saved on a pagan holiday
The pastor mentions that the time of Christ's birth may have been at a different time. They aren't a bunch of spiritual dunces like some of the anti-holiday people make them out to be.
It's juvenile to claim that observers are worshipping the Christmas tree...they throw it in the trash. Not a good way to treat your god if you thought he was a god
It's juvenile to claim that they are compromising Christianity. Most of this stuff comes from people who are immature and fixated on proclaiming their own righteousness, so that they can distinguish themselves from Christians around them as more holy and righteous. Be holy and righteous sitting alone in your rooms on those days.
My guess that many of the non-observers either 1) do socialize with people on Christmas but claim you aren't doing Christmas or 2) are anti-social person who may not have a family or friends, so being alone on that day is no real sacrifice..it just gives them an excuse to be alone.
I fit in category 2 when I was an anti-holiday observer. As a younger person I was pretty anti social and it was no sacrifice for me to sit in my room alone proclaiming my righteousness above all the other "pagans" who were socializing with each other. Maybe somehow I thought my spiritual light would shine being absent from the rest of the family..I don't know..but those who think it serves the furtherance of the Gospel in any manner to isolate themselves from observances are wrong.
Regarding any pagan roots, Christians were allowed to eat meat which had been previously designated to idols, with no conscience issue. I consider the same principle in regards to Christmas and Easter. If the days themselves had some previous pagan meaning associated with them, there is no issue with taking the days and re-purposing them, just like Christians re-purposed the meat sacrificed to idols.
By the way, the underlying mentality is that God is some type of being who allows things like these holidays to exist just so he can catch people up on a technicality and eternally punish them. I find this whole view of God to be juvenile and really pretty insulting to Him, like the Saturday/Sunday issue.
That all being said, Romans 14 gives Christians the right to make decisions about observances of days so no one HAS to observe these holidays either, just like the same liberality should be granted to Sabbath and festival observers. I know THEY don't think others should have the liberality to practice other things, but Romans 14 gives them that.
I wish I hadn't mentioned holidays in this thread, as most of the anti-holidays crowd aren't those who use these things as defining characteristics of who is a Christian and who is not.
S
Interesting how you lump "Anti Holiday" Christians in there. Just because Armstrong held to a set of beliefs doesn't mean that everything he held to is wrong. Neither does it mean we should condemn those who want to be obedient to the whole counsel of God .
Neither does it mean we should condemn those who want to be obedient to the whole counsel of God .
Right, and these are Christianity's most important days; something no one in Scripture did or taught.
And Jesus Himself celebrated this one. Christianity does not.
Fasting is different than a holiday.
A civil holiday with no tie to anything spiritual.
Again, fasting is different than a holiday.
Whether it is viewed as a shadow pointing to Jesus isn't the issue. It is a holiday commanded by God to celebrate forever (Leviticus 23:41) and never rescinded by anyone in Scripture.
No comment here as I have no clue as to what this Armstrong guy taught. But this is beside the point.
Except the roots and traditions of easter. No one would be celebrating easter unless certain people in history tried to tie Christianity into pagan celebrations. It was never endorsed or practiced by God's people. Yet the holidays God DID instruct and that Jesus Himself celebrated are for the most part ignored.
And this kind of preaching should be done every week, yes? (except lent) And of course, people are not directing their worship towards something pagan, which is a silly insinuation. People are absolutely worshiping God, but it's the set apart time that isn't correct.
I'm not sure what you were getting at here, but regarding the timing of celebrating Jesus' birth, why would we celebrate it on a day we know isn't the day? Just for tradition's sake?
And again, I'm not saying people are worshiping a tree; that's ridiculous.
Your personal assumptions about people's motives are irrelevant to the discussion. No one can prove or disprove any of your personal opinions. The discussion is about the Bible's view of these days; not people's attitudes towards it.
The food/idols discussion is a tricky one here considering the Council of Jerusalem in Acts 15. So it's not a clear endorsement of re-purposing or re-claiming pagan traditions.
God "allowing things like these holidays to exist" is such a random rabbit-trail to this discussion, I won't mention it further except to say that if you choose to view God in this way, then that is your doing, and not God's.
God says to worship Him in spirit and in truth. I can't see how He's OK with people just making stuff up as they go and claiming it is for God. Jesus was not born on christmas yet we celebrate as if He was, only because people made up the day to try and tie Christianity with pagan roots.
A question to consider: Would we be OK deciding to forego christmas and celebrate Jesus' birth during Ramadan and do daily fasts in order to re-claim that period? And how would that be different than what the originator's of christmas did? (Extreme parallel, I know. But it does merit some consideration.)
Simplistically speaking, would God be pleased if we told Him, "God, we know Jesus wasn't born on December 25th and that people originally came up with that day so they could worship other gods too, but we're going to do it anyway because we love you."
And Jesus Himself celebrated this one. Christianity does not.
Fasting is different than a holiday.
A civil holiday with no tie to anything spiritual.
Again, fasting is different than a holiday.
Whether it is viewed as a shadow pointing to Jesus isn't the issue. It is a holiday commanded by God to celebrate forever (Leviticus 23:41) and never rescinded by anyone in Scripture.
No comment here as I have no clue as to what this Armstrong guy taught. But this is beside the point.
Except the roots and traditions of easter. No one would be celebrating easter unless certain people in history tried to tie Christianity into pagan celebrations. It was never endorsed or practiced by God's people. Yet the holidays God DID instruct and that Jesus Himself celebrated are for the most part ignored.
What do I see going on in my church environment regarding Christmas? I go to services where the prophecies about the birth of Christ are discussed. Same thing with the Lenten season..sermons talking about the crucifixion and resurrection. I DON'T see anyone worshipping ANYTHING that is pagan. OH.......and....ALWAYS...the pastor preaches a very clear presentation of the gospel message on Easter services..how pagan of him!!!!!! Someone might get saved on a pagan holiday
The pastor mentions that the time of Christ's birth may have been at a different time. They aren't a bunch of spiritual dunces like some of the anti-holiday people make them out to be.
It's juvenile to claim that observers are worshipping the Christmas tree...they throw it in the trash. Not a good way to treat your god if you thought he was a god
It's juvenile to claim that observers are worshipping the Christmas tree...they throw it in the trash. Not a good way to treat your god if you thought he was a god
And again, I'm not saying people are worshiping a tree; that's ridiculous.
Your personal assumptions about people's motives are irrelevant to the discussion. No one can prove or disprove any of your personal opinions. The discussion is about the Bible's view of these days; not people's attitudes towards it.
The food/idols discussion is a tricky one here considering the Council of Jerusalem in Acts 15. So it's not a clear endorsement of re-purposing or re-claiming pagan traditions.
God "allowing things like these holidays to exist" is such a random rabbit-trail to this discussion, I won't mention it further except to say that if you choose to view God in this way, then that is your doing, and not God's.
God says to worship Him in spirit and in truth. I can't see how He's OK with people just making stuff up as they go and claiming it is for God. Jesus was not born on christmas yet we celebrate as if He was, only because people made up the day to try and tie Christianity with pagan roots.
A question to consider: Would we be OK deciding to forego christmas and celebrate Jesus' birth during Ramadan and do daily fasts in order to re-claim that period? And how would that be different than what the originator's of christmas did? (Extreme parallel, I know. But it does merit some consideration.)
Simplistically speaking, would God be pleased if we told Him, "God, we know Jesus wasn't born on December 25th and that people originally came up with that day so they could worship other gods too, but we're going to do it anyway because we love you."
#1 gave me a laugh as I remembered a neighbour who was a JW. Of course, she was not allowed to celebrate Christmas or any other child centered holiday. (Amazing the way JW's can celebrate adult things like New Year's Day, but nothing that children might enjoy.)
Anyway, a few days before Christmas this JW neighbour told me since the kids were home on vacation, she was going to buy her kids some toys - "for the change of season." This was in a place that it rained from late October through to March. The end of December was not a change of season by any calendar or weather cues.
Basically, she felt bad her kids weren't getting to celebrate Christmas, so she gave them presents, celebrated Christmas but claimed she was not doing Christmas to justify staying a JW. I do hope another Christian neighbour was able to show her the truth of the gospel, as I left that area soon after that.
Everything points to tabernacles pertaining to the end of days. It was at the end of the year to celebrate rest from the year's labors and the ingathering of the harvest. Noah's ark rested on the third day of this festival. The Israelites were told to enter the promised land of rest during the time of first ripe grapes, which would have corresponded with this time, but they rebelled and entered 40 years later on Passover (quite significant).
The day of atonement has two aspects. The sins of the people were atoned for (which is happening now), and then the high priest would emerge from the holy place to send the sins of the people away on the goat. That hasn't happened yet, and will happen at Christ's return.
The day of atonement has two aspects. The sins of the people were atoned for (which is happening now), and then the high priest would emerge from the holy place to send the sins of the people away on the goat. That hasn't happened yet, and will happen at Christ's return.
Oh and I forgot to mention that tabernacles was the 7th festival that occurred in the 7th month for 7 days. The number 7 always signifies completion, perfection and rest. So the whole concept of tabernacles is rest, not an incarnation. That's not saying that Christ wasn't born during tabernacles, though.
S
Christ came and to "tabernacle" amongst us in flesh. I do not think the case for FOT being the Millennium is strong..
That Day of Atonement thing is a Seventh Day Adventist interpretation. Christ is our sin bearer, not Satan, if that's where you are going with this. He bore our sins outside of the camp.
The two goats were symbolic of two different aspects of Christ's atonement..the blood atonement and carrying the sin away.
I Peter 2:24 He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness. By his wounds you have been healed.
Hebrews 13:12 So Jesus also suffered outside the gate in order to sanctify the people through his own blood.
Armstrongites used to teach that Day of Atonement nonsense, and SDAs do the same thing.
They claim that Satan is our sin bearer, which in my opinion is blasphemous. Christ bore our sins.
Armstrongites do it to force the festivals into a sequence so they can claim that the Holy Days haven't been fulfilled yet. I don't see any grounds for it. I don't think Feast of Tabernacles can be related to the Millennium (besides that, there were eight days, not just seven). The Day of Atonement interpretation makes on sense as Satan is not our sin bearer...Christ was.
That Day of Atonement thing is a Seventh Day Adventist interpretation. Christ is our sin bearer, not Satan, if that's where you are going with this. He bore our sins outside of the camp.
The two goats were symbolic of two different aspects of Christ's atonement..the blood atonement and carrying the sin away.
I Peter 2:24 He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness. By his wounds you have been healed.
Hebrews 13:12 So Jesus also suffered outside the gate in order to sanctify the people through his own blood.
Armstrongites used to teach that Day of Atonement nonsense, and SDAs do the same thing.
They claim that Satan is our sin bearer, which in my opinion is blasphemous. Christ bore our sins.
Armstrongites do it to force the festivals into a sequence so they can claim that the Holy Days haven't been fulfilled yet. I don't see any grounds for it. I don't think Feast of Tabernacles can be related to the Millennium (besides that, there were eight days, not just seven). The Day of Atonement interpretation makes on sense as Satan is not our sin bearer...Christ was.
S
My mother was an Armstrongite so she didn't observe Christmas, but the rule was that the man is the head of the household, so what he says goes. My father was not a Christian, so he always observed Christmas. Mom would bring us to the Christmas party at the grandparents' home so she pretty much was doing exactly what we did. She is a very social person and I know that she only was doing what she thought was right...she didn't like being away from the family on holidays. She was glad my dad was in charge, because the church also taught long ago that medications shouldn't be taken and it was a lack of faith to take them. So, pretty much we didn't have health issues because of the mixed marriage. This is the kind of nonsense legalism causes.
S
Whether it is viewed as a shadow pointing to Jesus isn't the issue. It (the Feast of Tabernacles) is a holiday commanded by God to celebrate forever (Leviticus 23:41) and never rescinded by anyone in Scripture.
Since none of those things are observed now, your reasoning is flawed if you are asserting that they are required today.
In order to be convincing, you would need to get past the MANY verses that say the Old Covenant is no longer in effect. Second, you'd need to get past the fact that we aren't parties to the Mosaic Covenant to begin with...it was made with God and the ancient nation of Israel. Third, you'd need to get past the Scriptures that state that the Sabbath and Holy Days are shadows and the fact that they were grouped with things that no longer apply in Colossians 2:16-17, including food and drink offerings and New Moons. Fourth, the same language of "forever" was used in relation to physical circumcision, the showbread, and the Levitical priesthood.
Then, if you managed to do that, I would ask you if you put your wife or daughters out of the house during their menstrual cycle like the Mosaic Covenant prescribes, and if you throw any sofa or furniture that they sat upon away as unclean.
Then, I would ask you if you wear tassels on the corners of your garments and wear clothing made of unmixed materials like the Mosaic Covenant prescribes.
Then, I would ask you why John called the Feast of Tabernacles "the Jews' Feast of Tabernacles" if they still apply (John 7:2).
You guys will never win this argument with me...I know all the points as I've had to work through them myself
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Well if you study the traditions of the Babylonians in their sun god and fertility worship, they did worship:
1) The stump of the evergreen tree
2) The evergreen tree itself
3) The idols carved out of the trees
So... yes Jeremiah 10 does apply
Regarding Easter, the KJV wasn't exactly wrong as the Romans did celebrate the fertility festival of Ishtar/Eostre/Easter during that time of year. However, it was very closely timed with Passover, hence the syncretism done to merge them together.
Lent was never mentioned in the bible, and was commemorated by the 40 days of fasting and weeping for the fallen Tammuz, killed by a wild boar (hence Easter ham). Neither does it coincide with the death and resurrection of Christ. Christ did die on Passover (14th Nisan) and rose three days later. This we are pretty sure about.
Regarding the OT feasts, we do not observe them by the letter as we are not required to. However, we are called to understand the prophetic nature of the feasts as they apply to Christ's ministry for His first and second coming. As we know, the spring feasts and summer feast were fulfilled to the day. The Fall feasts have yet to be fulfilled. We understand why God instituted them and how they now apply spiritually in Christ. In essence, a spiritual observance and keeping the feasts in Christ just as we keep the Ritual and Ceremonial Law spiritually and not to the letter.
1) The stump of the evergreen tree
2) The evergreen tree itself
3) The idols carved out of the trees
So... yes Jeremiah 10 does apply
Regarding Easter, the KJV wasn't exactly wrong as the Romans did celebrate the fertility festival of Ishtar/Eostre/Easter during that time of year. However, it was very closely timed with Passover, hence the syncretism done to merge them together.
Lent was never mentioned in the bible, and was commemorated by the 40 days of fasting and weeping for the fallen Tammuz, killed by a wild boar (hence Easter ham). Neither does it coincide with the death and resurrection of Christ. Christ did die on Passover (14th Nisan) and rose three days later. This we are pretty sure about.
Regarding the OT feasts, we do not observe them by the letter as we are not required to. However, we are called to understand the prophetic nature of the feasts as they apply to Christ's ministry for His first and second coming. As we know, the spring feasts and summer feast were fulfilled to the day. The Fall feasts have yet to be fulfilled. We understand why God instituted them and how they now apply spiritually in Christ. In essence, a spiritual observance and keeping the feasts in Christ just as we keep the Ritual and Ceremonial Law spiritually and not to the letter.
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S
The way it looks to me, after examining unbiased church history (not the nonsense that some groups put out) , is that God moved the Church intentionally away from Judaizer teachings because they were in danger of being overwhelmed by it. The New Testament bears record to the continual assaults by Judaizers attempting to turn Christianity into nothing more than a modified form of Judaism. The council in Acts 15 and the book of Galatians are two of the more prominent examples.
This movement was continued later by Ebionites and Nazarenes. Some groups claim that these sects were the "true Christians" which is nonsense as they had heretical beliefs, including denying the full deity of Jesus Christ and the writings of Paul.
Coincidentally, its funny how many of the modern Judaizing groups challenge the same points..the Trinity, the full deity of Jesus Christ, and the inspiration of Paul's writings.
Christianity is a distinct faith, and is not modified Judaism. That is the fundamental flaw in a lot of the Hebrew Roots logic. They view all other groups as being contaminated and their version as being the true faith. This holiday issue relates to their claim.
And, as I noted in an earlier post, most of them don't keep the Mosaic Covenant even though they claim to. The menstrual issue is one point. Another is that very view of them reside in a Sukkoth during the Feast of Tabernacles as Leviticus 23 requires.
Regarding the gospel being preached every service, a lot of people who don't normally go to services during the rest of the year will go on Christmas and Easter, so the chances of those people hearing a gospel message is significant. Many churches have Christmas plays and events where a gospel message is presented. Easter is a common day for church attendance.
This movement was continued later by Ebionites and Nazarenes. Some groups claim that these sects were the "true Christians" which is nonsense as they had heretical beliefs, including denying the full deity of Jesus Christ and the writings of Paul.
Coincidentally, its funny how many of the modern Judaizing groups challenge the same points..the Trinity, the full deity of Jesus Christ, and the inspiration of Paul's writings.
Christianity is a distinct faith, and is not modified Judaism. That is the fundamental flaw in a lot of the Hebrew Roots logic. They view all other groups as being contaminated and their version as being the true faith. This holiday issue relates to their claim.
And, as I noted in an earlier post, most of them don't keep the Mosaic Covenant even though they claim to. The menstrual issue is one point. Another is that very view of them reside in a Sukkoth during the Feast of Tabernacles as Leviticus 23 requires.
Regarding the gospel being preached every service, a lot of people who don't normally go to services during the rest of the year will go on Christmas and Easter, so the chances of those people hearing a gospel message is significant. Many churches have Christmas plays and events where a gospel message is presented. Easter is a common day for church attendance.