atheists

[Starcrash]

Atheist are atheist because they want to be atheist and ignore the many proofs of the word of God. You might as well cut down a tree and carve it then worship it. that is what the atheist did in bible times. So they could feel good about doing their own thing and not be held accountable for their actions or so they thought.

Why are you trying to explain to atheists what they are instead of listening to an atheist tell you what atheists are? Your concept of atheism doesn't even make sense -- atheists don't worship any gods! Why would an atheist carve an image in a tree and worship it? That's nonsensical. And of course that's not "what the atheist did in bible times"... there is no discussion of atheists or tree-worshippers in the bible. You didn't cite your "facts" because you made them up.

And the other myth about atheism is as common as dirt -- that atheists don't believe in God because they "don't want to be held acountable for their actions"... but think about it just for a moment. Are you not a Muslim just because you want to rebel against Allah and the Qur'an? Or is it because you don't believe in Islam? It doesn't even make sense to be an atheist to "feel good about doing [our] own thing" because being a Christian doesn't force you to follow the bible -- Christians can sin as much as they want, and your brains still allow you to rationalize or self-justify your actions to "feel good" about it. In fact, the idea of atonement for sins gives you the freedom to sin al you want without punishment, so there is less accountability for your actions than there is in our world, where we understand the natural consequences of doing wrong.

 

[CoooCaw]

Not really CoooCaw. Though there are no solid hypotheses on the origin of the first life forms, that I know of, evolution itself is well established by a plethora of evidence. Don't confuse the origin of life with evolution. Evolution explains the abundance of different life forms on Earth and their rise from other organisms, but it says nothing about how life first originated. That is not what evolution claims to do.

I am telling you that I don't know how life originated and you are calling that blind faith? Blind faith is believing that you know how life originated in the absence of any physical evidence to support your claim. When you assert that God created life, that is not evidence. When you quote scripture to show God created life you are only quoting an author making a faith claim. You have to distinguish between a faith claim and actual evidence. Biblical scripture makes faith claims. It presents no actual physical evidence about the origin of life. In fact if we examine the Genesis account I can show you that the creation story is not what you think it is.

your blind faith is in believing that the evidence for evolutism actually exists and taking this "fact" for granted when in fact it defies logic and any observable data has to be interpretted IN A CERTAIN WAY TO in order to imagine it can defy the laws of science

 

[Starcrash]

your blind faith is in believing that the evidence for evolutism actually exists and taking this "fact" for granted when in fact it defies logic and any observable data has to be interpretted IN A CERTAIN WAY TO in order to imagine it can defy the laws of science

As I responded to Cycel myself, there are observable data for evolution but no one has ever (or will ever) observe creationism. There are no "laws of science", only observations from experiment, and he is following that evidence where it leads. You are denying it because you don't like its conclusion. When debating evolution, you're doing what all creationists do -- you're trying to make his case weak, instead of presenting evidence for creationism and showing that it's stronger than his... because there isn't any evidence for creationism.

 

[Cycel]

Because two wrongs don't make a right.

So right. Everyone should attempt to rise above, not sink to the lowest common denominator.

 

[Cycel]

I never said "All atheist are going straight to hell whereas christians surely end up in heaven" or anything - I just shared two events in my life where I felt treated very disrespectfully by them. Apparently you missed the last part of my former post, which clearly states I do not believe that all of them are this stereotypical atheists that hate on christians.
For your information: my own brother is an atheist. And guess what? We get along just fine and I enjoy our discussions on our different perspectves of life. I have many friends from who have different believes and I am absolutely fine with that - as long as we all treat each other with respect.

Saydee, I think you've effectively cleared up the confusion.

 

[CoooCaw]

As I responded to Cycel myself, there are observable data for evolution but no one has ever (or will ever) observe creationism. There are no "laws of science", only observations from experiment, and he is following that evidence where it leads. You are denying it because you don't like its conclusion. When debating evolution, you're doing what all creationists do -- you're trying to make his case weak, instead of presenting evidence for creationism and showing that it's stronger than his... because there isn't any evidence for creationism.

there is zero evidence to support the insane dogma of evolutionism

I defy you to provide me one piece of evidence;

any response you give will involve taking observable phenomena and forcing an evolutionary interpretation onto it

 

[WarChild]

But there's also nothing domonstrable about creation either. You can't ask for proof of one thing when you'll accept another without evidence.

 

[AvalonXQ]

I defy you to provide me one piece of evidence;

No problem. What specific part of evolution would you like evidence for, and what sort of evidence - phylogenetic, geographic, molecular?

I tell you what, why don't you just pick out your own piece of evidence from this list:

29+ Evidences for Macroevolution: The Scientific Case for Common Descent

 

[AvalonXQ]

Here's one of my favorites:

Thousands of new species are discovered yearly, and new DNA and protein sequences are determined daily from previously unexamined species (Wilson 1992, Ch. 8). At the current rate, which is increasing exponentially, nearly 30,000 new sequences are deposited at GenBank every day, amounting to over 38 million new bases sequenced every day. Each and every one is a test of the theory of common descent. When I first wrote these words in 1999, the rate was less than one tenth what it is today (in 2006), and we now have 20 times the amount of DNA sequenced. Based solely on the theory of common descent and the genetics of known organisms, we strongly predict that we will never find any modern species from known phyla on this Earth with a foreign, non-nucleic acid genetic material. We also make the strong prediction that all newly discovered species that belong to the known phyla will use the "standard genetic code" or a close derivative thereof. For example, according to the theory, none of the thousands of new and previously unknown insects that are constantly being discovered in the Brazilian rainforest will have non-nucleic acid genomes. Nor will these yet undiscovered species of insects have genetic codes which are not close derivatives of the standard genetic code. In the absence of the theory of common descent, it is quite possible that every species could have a very different genetic code, specific to it only, since there are 1.4 x 10[SUP]70[/SUP] informationally equivalent genetic codes, all of which use the same codons and amino acids as the standard genetic code (Yockey 1992). This possibility could be extremely useful for organisms, as it would preclude interspecific viral infections. However, this has not been observed, and the theory of common descent effectively prohibits such an observation.
As another example, nine new lemur and two marmoset species (all primates) were discovered in the forests of Madagascar and Brazil in 2000 (Groves 2000; Rasoloarison et al. 2000; Thalmann and Geissmann 2000). Ten new monkey species have been discovered in Brazil alone since 1990 (Van Roosmalen et al. 2000). Nothing in biology prevents these various species from having a hitherto unknown genetic material or a previously unused genetic code—nothing, that is, except for the theory of common descent. However, we now know definitively that the new lemurs use DNA with the standard genetic code (Yoder et al. 2000); the marmosets have yet to be tested.
Furthermore, each species could use a different polymer for catalysis. The polymers that are used could still be chemically identical yet have different chiralities in different species. There are thousands of thermodynamically equivalent glycolysis pathways (even using the same ten reaction steps but in different orders), so it is possible that every species could have its own specific glycolysis pathway, tailored to its own unique needs. The same reasoning applies to other core metabolic pathways, such as the citric acid cycle and oxidative phosphorylation.
Finally, many molecules besides ATP could serve equally well as the common currency for energy in various species (CTP, TTP, UTP, ITP, or any ATP-like molecule with one of the 293 known amino acids or one of the dozens of other bases replacing the adenosine moiety immediately come to mind). Discovering any new animals or plants that contained any of the anomalous examples proffered above would be potential falsifications of common ancestry, but they have not been found.

Issues with this?

 

[AvalonXQ]

I think it is unfortunate that CoooCaw asks so ardently for evidence, but when evidence is provided CoooCaw has nothing more to say.

 

[megaman125]

In fact, the idea of atonement for sins gives you the freedom to sin al you want without punishment, so there is less accountability for your actions than there is in our world, where we understand the natural consequences of doing wrong.

This is 100% garbage. Forgiveness is not a license to sin as much as you want, and Christianity certainly doesn't teach such nonsense.

But there's also nothing domonstrable about creation either. You can't ask for proof of one thing when you'll accept another without evidence.

If you wish to stand by those two statements, then you would have to agree that creation and evolution are both equally plausable ideas. So, I'll give you the opportunity to accept or reject that statement. However, do note that if you reject, then you've just contradicted yourself. So then, do you accept that both creation and evolution are equally plausable ideas for explaining our origins?

 

[megaman125]

I think it is unfortunate that CoooCaw asks so ardently for evidence, but when evidence is provided CoooCaw has nothing more to say.

Or maybe CooCaw hasn't been online since that post since he probably doesn't sit on here 24/7 to respond to your posts within a few minutes/hours like you so arrogantly expect him to.

 

[duewell]

ooo 30 pages on this topic, very nice. i'm sure after all that everyone is finally in agreement....

well im not one who talks much about the evolution vs creationist, instead i will do one of my favorite things and talk about myself. i went to a lutheran school up to 5th grade and then was transferred to a public school in 1983. that was the end of any religion in our family. i only got to go to the lutheran school because my aunt put her kids through it so my mother got a deal on her kids. being the last one left there the deal ended. that was the extent of my religious background.

from 1983 until 2009 i was not a believer. almost all my friends are non believers. i have seen this topic come up many times whenever we encountered believers. i watched as they tried to persuade any believer from their delusions of religion or gods. one person i remember well, is of a believer thinking he could hang with us and keep his faith. he promised to remain a virgin until married and to never do drugs. one of the girls in our group wasn't having it. he really didn't have a chance. within one year he was out of Christianity. sex drugs and rock and roll, he became one of our group. i could talk for months about the things we did, but i think anyone reading this will get the point.

so what happened to me? why did i change? oddly enough in 2009 i began to feel extremely paranoid. was it all the hydro i smoked ? better cut back on the weed. man i'm still paranoid. some undeniable force seemed to be coming for me. kinda freaking me out i went to see a shrink. she suggested i keep a diary of events to help me feel a bit less freaked out. good idea but i'm a poor writer so i bought a lap top cause i'm better at typing. i decided to write a biography of my life just in case my paranoia wasn't paranoia. when talking to my closest friend about how i thought something was out to get me he simply said well considering the life you live you prolly deserve it.

still with me ? cool cool. while writing my biography the oddest thing started to happen. i actually started feeling bad about some of the things i had done in my life. i became aware of how my actions may have caused harm to others. i had an emotional breakdown crying about the terrible things i had done to other people. in the midst of this i called out for help. i said Jesus help me. i heard a voice off to my right as if someone had been standing there. it simply said, "well finally"

what the hell was that? what just happened? over the next week or two my paranoia of a undeniable force coming for me faded. but something even odder was now happening. entertainment seemed to have taken on a new perspective. songs i had listened to for years suddenly had a different meaning. the same for books and movies. it was like everything in the world suddenly shifted 2 inches to the right, changing my perspective of all the things i loved. the undeniable force wasnt coming for me any more, it was present and i could hear it through the things around me.

well this isn't right. i better go see a doctor. yes said the doctor that is crazy. talking to my friends they said yes this is crazy. family said the same thing. everyone was in agreement that i had a medical condition. hang on i said as i busted out my laptop. i have documented as much as possible and i don't think this is medical i think this is something spiritual. some things are similar to what buddha said about collective consciousness. and that's when i noticed the night i had documented about asking Jesus for help.

just a coincidence they all said. well i don't think that's the case. i think i'm having a personal spiritual awakening and because none of you believe in that crap its pointless to talk about it with you anymore. something is out there i said and i want to find out what it is.

interlude: i think i have something believers and non believers will agree on. this guy is schizophrenic. personally i feel this is a scientific identification of a spiritual problem. because we do not treat it as so or understand it as so those going through it have no one to help them resolve it in a spiritual manner. i'm sure we could debate it for days. feel free to pm me. now back to the story.

i have to find out what this is. so i packed a bag and left. now things are really jumping and something is clearly trying to lead me to something. here is a brief summary of the events that happened when i made that decision. you thought this post was long just wait.

i got in my car and started driving. i went from wisconsin to denver. because of what i was hearing i was very focused on listening to music and i let it guide me. i felt as if the world was ending, Jesus was returning, it was going to go bad for a lot of people i knew. the last three songs i had play were 2112 by rush me wise magic by van halen and here i am by skid row. as the song ended i said that i believe and i closed my eyes, took my hands of the steering wheel and punched the gas. as the car veered of the right the road i hit a post and opened my eyes and heard a voice say "no peeking"

next thing im aware of i am on the left side of the road. my car is upside down and i am standing next to it. there is a car stopped on the freeway and a lady standing next to the car. it was about 50 feet from me. i could see her eyes from that far away and they had an internal light. i walked to this women and looked into her eyes. instead of having color in her eyes like we do her eyes seemed to be made of all the stars in the sky. shifting and twinkling like diamonds. in the pupil off her eyes i could see my reflection so well it was like a mirror. she said to me "you're alive" i hugged her and sat down.

weeks later i was back at the job i had quit and was talking about things with a coworker. he is a Christian and during a point he said what you are talking about sounds a lot like whats in the book of romans in the bible. i told him that i didn't have a bible and he gave me one.

reading the bible confirmed all the things i had been thinking and experiencing. i felt that i should be baptized. by september i decided to once again follow what i was perceiving around me. i got in my car and drove from wisconsin to south dakota. when i ran out of gas i started walking. while walking i was trying to understand the things i was experiencing. as i followed the train tracks a dog came running up to me and i followed it to a house that had a bunch of dogs in pens. i didnt like that and let them all go. i went back to walking on the train tracks and three of them came to walk with me. two in front and one in back. that day i walked from sunrise well into the night. when i laid down the dogs were licking me all over and laying on me. i found an old farm truck and slept inside it.

at dawn i was awoken to the truck rocking back and forth. the dogs were pushing on it. i got out and said well lets go. they walked me through this farm area. i lost my shoes in manure and decided to take off all my clothes. they led me through the corn to a stream that had a large swimming hole. one stood on its back legs in the water and i went into the water. it put a paw on each shoulder and pushed me under after i said in the name of the father. in the name of the son, and pushed under. and of the Holy Spirit, and pushed under.

on the third dunk i felt the urge to breathe in the water. i do not know how long i was under. the dog lifted me up out of the water and i could see the pool of water was bubbling. to me it felt like all the fish were gasping for breath as i had been under water. i heard a voice say "would you kill all the fish in the sea" i said no and got out of the water.

this is a brief summary of the events of 2009. i had a laptop and i documented everything i could. since then things have gotten less intense for me but its still going on around me. when i close my eyes i can see other eyes looking at me. i see images of people and places. i have dreams where i feel pain and the wetness of water. when im awake i hear music playing. i have felt hands touch my body as i lay in bed. just this last april 10 2013 i was awoken at dawn by a voice saying happy birthday. apr 10 is the day i let go of the wheel. my actual b.d. is in may. the previous year on easter sunday i was awoken at dawn by what felt like a presence hugging me.

i have only met one person who understood what i was talking about. i met her three days after april 10th 2009. she was four months pregnant.i have dreamed of her since then she has a daughter. i do not have a scholarly knowledge of the bible, but i feel i have a spiritual understanding of it. guess what sunday was after april 10 2009. i have been on this web sight for awhile now mainly just dropping out seeds for other peoples garden to grow. feel free to talk to me anytime, about anything. i dont talk about it much to people because of how it all sounds incredulous.

pretty weird right? dont worry most people would think so. time to lock him up and throw away the key isn't it ? that's just a brief summary. i have a laptop filled with far more stuff. i can understand why anyone would think this all to be the ravings of a mad man. but am i ?

all the old arguments about God and religion go right out the window when you believe that you have actually experienced the bible. to any non believer who has doubts, maybe you could write a biography of your life and ask Jesus for help. it changed me and maybe it will change you too. if you have all this time to discuss evolution vs creation, take some time to give it a shot. unless of course you would rather endlessly debate something rather than experience it.


well if you made it this far thanks for reading my post. feel free to pm me. \

duewell
mark 4 v 11-13

 

[AvalonXQ]

Or maybe CooCaw hasn't been online since that post since he probably doesn't sit on here 24/7 to respond to your posts within a few minutes/hours like you so arrogantly expect him to.

In the four hours between those two posts, CoooCaw had posted on no fewer than five other threads. I looked that up BEFORE I made the later post, to verify that CoooCaw HAD in fact been active on the forum but was avoiding this particular thread.

Perhaps, megaman125, you should spend less time deciding what to believe, and more time looking for evidence. You could have looked up CoooCaw's profile, just like I did, and avoided making a false statement about CoooCaw and a false claim about me.

 

[AvalonXQ]

I checked again, and megaman125 is correct. I had misread the profile feature and thought CoooCaw had posted to several other threads when, in fact, CoooCaw's last post here is his most recent activity on the forum.

I'll wait longer.

 

[megaman125]

Perhaps, megaman125, you should spend less time deciding what to believe, and more time looking for evidence.

Why do you talk to me as if I'm unsure of my beliefs? I don't spend time deciding what to believe anymore, because I already know what I believe. I've said this before, and I'll say it again. You have no shot of convincing me to give up the Christian faith in favor of your beliefs. If that's what your goal is and why you're here, then you're wasting your time.

Also, one other thing I'll throw out there, even if Coocaw posts in other topics before posting here again, it is possible that he forgot about this topic, and isn't intentially trying to avoid you. It isn't always about you. And this is a valid possibility regardless of whether or not your arrogance allows you to make room for a possibility other than "he must be avoiding me, therefore I'm right."

 

[AvalonXQ]

You have no shot of convincing me to give up the Christian faith in favor of your beliefs.

I'm a Christian, too - and apparently one who makes fewer assumptions about other people than you do.

I think maybe you should be looking to address your own arrogance instead of mine.

 

[megaman125]

So you believe God created the universe then? And is that why you jumped all over CooCaw for not responding immediately to the so called "undeniable proof" that the billions of years ago claims of evolution are right and the Bible is wrong?

 

[AvalonXQ]

More arrogance; more ascribing me with positions I have not taken.

Perhaps you should be a little faster to listen, megaman125, and a little slower to judge. I myself already acknowledged my mistake in not waiting long enough for CoooCaw to respond. The more you jump all over me, the less your righteousness holds up.

 

[danschance]

Let's play nice in the sandbox. k?