atheists

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zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
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No I'm not agnostic, I'm not open to the possibility. Read my edit on the my last post.
i did.
jack the ripper left evidence.
lots of it. whether it was one man; a cult; a woman, we do not know.
but we know what he (they) did.
we have the evidence.

you can hardly be a jack the ripper agnostic.
you can say rightfully (that we know of) he wasn't caught.
we never saw him
but we know he existed.
because we saw what he did.

you already admitted you don't know everything that can be known.
that includes the possiblity of God.
so, you do not know if there is a God.
neither do you know there is not.
 
Aug 25, 2013
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I have read it, I don't recall the part you mentioned though, but that's mainly due to the sheer amount of books I've read in the last few years :)
If you own a copy turn to page fifty. You will see the chart I am talking about.

IntoTheVoid said:
Plus I have a hard time reading things that agree with me sometimes. I just end up skimming, going 'yep... Yep... Yep....' Cos it's telling me what I already know (At least in my own Mind anyway lol) and therefore it doesn't challenge me or stick in my mind as much as something that opposes my mindset.
I understand. The rebuttals on religion become more of the same after awhile.
 
Sep 14, 2013
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i did.
jack the ripper left evidence.
lots of it. whether it was one man; a cult; a woman, we do not know.
but we know what he (they) did.
we have the evidence.

you can hardly be a jack the ripper agnostic.
you can say rightfully (that we know of) he wasn't caught.
we never saw him
but we know he existed.
because we saw what he did.

you already admitted you don't know everything that can be known.
that includes the possiblity of God.
so, you do not know if there is a God.
neither do you know there is not.
Again we'll argue about arguing instead then.

Do you know everything? Do you know everything that can be known? If not then that includes the possibility of Thor, Odin and Poseidon. Are you agnostic towards those gods? Or are you 100 percent convinced they don't exist.
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
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Again we'll argue about arguing instead then.

Do you know everything? Do you know everything that can be known? If not then that includes the possibility of Thor, Odin and Poseidon. Are you agnostic towards those gods? Or are you 100 percent convinced they don't exist.
no i do not know everything.

i am 100 percent convinced those gods never existed.
they are absolutely myths and idols made by men.

i know this, because i know for certain there is One God, and i know Who He is.

that much i do know for certain.

i noticed you said you get bored looking for something to challenge your beliefs.
would you like a new challenge?
 
Sep 14, 2013
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i did.
jack the ripper left evidence.
lots of it. whether it was one man; a cult; a woman, we do not know.
but we know what he (they) did.
we have the evidence.

you can hardly be a jack the ripper agnostic.
you can say rightfully (that we know of) he wasn't caught.
we never saw him
but we know he existed.
because we saw what he did.

you already admitted you don't know everything that can be known.
that includes the possiblity of God.
so, you do not know if there is a God.
neither do you know there is not.
Let's look at the dragon in the garage scenario.

If my friend said he had a pet dog in his garage then id more than likely to believe him without evidence because it's possible. Everything I believe about life doesn't change. I know dogs exist, I know people keep them as pets and I know my friend has a garage. Therefore it's very likely true.

Now if he says he has a pet dragon in his garage then that goes against everything I'm certain about. I know dragons don't exist, I highly doubt anyone would want one as a pet and they certainly won't fit in garages. Therefore I would be 100 percent convinced his statement was false.

As you've guessed by now, I like lousy analogies lol
 
Sep 14, 2013
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no i do not know everything.

i am 100 percent convinced those gods never existed.
they are absolutely myths and idols made by men.
Now you understand exactly how I feel about the god of the bible
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
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Let's look at the dragon in the garage scenario.

If my friend said he had a pet dog in his garage then id more than likely to believe him without evidence because it's possible. Everything I believe about life doesn't change. I know dogs exist, I know people keep them as pets and I know my friend has a garage. Therefore it's very likely true.

Now if he says he has a pet dragon in his garage then that goes against everything I'm certain about. I know dragons don't exist, I highly doubt anyone would want one as a pet and they certainly won't fit in garages. Therefore I would be 100 percent convinced his statement was false.

As you've guessed by now, I like lousy analogies lol
that's fair enough.
we have lived on this earth long enough, and been around it enough times to be reasonably certain dragons (per hollywood) do not exist.

as for what happens in 'space', once we leave what we can observe with the eye - we have only theories.

right? just theories.

so, you only know for certain what you can know you know for certain. for everything else, you have theories.
if you didn't you wouldn't bother trying to know anything more than what you do now.

but you already admitted you do not know all there is to know.

so the absolute exclusion of the possibility of God is impossible, since there are things you do not know.

if you have just decided to proclaim there is no God, just say that.
that's another subject.
 
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Sep 14, 2013
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that's fair enough.
we have lived on this earth long enough, and been around it enough times to be reasonably certain dragons (per hollywood) do not exist.

as for what happens in 'space', once we leave what we can observe with the eye - we have only theories.

right? just theories.

so, you only know for certain what you can know you know for certain. for everything else, you have theories.
if you didn't you wouldn't bother trying to know anything more than what you do now.

but you already admitted you do not know all there is to know.

so the absolutle exclusion of the possibility of God is impossible, since there are things you do not know.
Again, not knowing something is not justification for solving a mystery with a mystery. I would rather admit that I don't know something than settle for a magical,mythical, unprovable 'catch all' answer.
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
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Some parts I'm ok with, what have you got for me.
well, how are you at researching History?
do you have any problem trusting Historical records? i mean things you can check yourself.
 

Angela53510

Senior Member
Jan 24, 2011
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Is it intellectually dishonest to have an unwavering disbelief in Santa? Or Fairies? Should I look at all sides first and just sway towards the stronger evidence? I'll wager you are 100 percent convinced neither of the above exist. And if you say you aren't then your just falsely saying to try and reinforce your point.

No, it's not intellectually dishonest.

See, What's happening here is what always happens in this type of discussions. We end up not debating the issue at hand anymore, we just start arguing about arguing.

We can't prove one side or disprove another so we end up taking swings at each other's words, semantics or descriptions instead.

Of course, the difference between Santa or fairy followers and followers of Christ, is that we have the Holy Spirit to lead and guide us, with the Bible being our life manual and the Words of God to all who believe.

You want semantics or descriptions, but I think we need to come back to relationship. Being a follower of Jesus Christ, means having a relationship with him. He is my Lord, Saviour, and Friend. He leads and guides me. He changes me by the power of the Holy Spirit.

Your analogy of a mythical Clausian religion breaks down because there is no proof, no evidence. My proof is that I was saved out of the New Age movement (before that, a confirmed atheist!) from heavy drinking and many other evils. God changed me in a moment. I have never wanted another drink in 33 years.

God has never left me in all those years. Sometimes I did not obey him, but he constantly pulled me back close to him.

I know it is very hard when you are trying to quantify the omnipresent, omnipotent and omniscient God. Because you cannot put God in a box, (one which you have made), you deny the evidence of a Creator God everywhere.

And yes, one of the things that propelled me towards Christ was being in Science in University. I was a physical geography major, with a minor in biology. I heard in my geography and geology classes that the rocks were basically dated by the plants and animals that were in the rocks. In Biology, I heard that the plants and animals were dated by the rocks.

This kind of circular reason found no answers from my professors in that very secular university. That is when someone gave me a book on creation. I became a young earth creationist. Except I did NOT know who the creator was. I started searching. God found me!! I did not find him.

I pray for the many atheists on this thread, that God will find them too. Then you won't have to worry about incorrect metaphors and analogies, or debating any issues. You will find Christ to be all satisfying, and he will change your heart, soul and mind in a way you didn't know you needed to be changed!

"Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." John 14:6.

There is no stronger verse I can give you. I pray that God will open your hearts, so this one verse will change your life, and you will be like me and others, once lost, now found!

PS. I do not think that only young earth Creationists are saved. Just wrong about their dating!

I also read God Delusion and found it to be extremely lacking in evidence. I have read several excellent refutations of that book, if you want, message me and I will find the name of at least one I have hiding in my bookshelves.
 
Sep 14, 2013
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Of course, the difference between Santa or fairy followers and followers of Christ, is that we have the Holy Spirit to lead and guide us, with the Bible being our life manual and the Words of God to all who believe.

You want semantics or descriptions, but I think we need to come back to relationship. Being a follower of Jesus Christ, means having a relationship with him. He is my Lord, Saviour, and Friend. He leads and guides me. He changes me by the power of the Holy Spirit.

Your analogy of a mythical Clausian religion breaks down because there is no proof, no evidence. My proof is that I was saved out of the New Age movement (before that, a confirmed atheist!) from heavy drinking and many other evils. God changed me in a moment. I have never wanted another drink in 33 years.

God has never left me in all those years. Sometimes I did not obey him, but he constantly pulled me back close to him.

I know it is very hard when you are trying to quantify the omnipresent, omnipotent and omniscient God. Because you cannot put God in a box, (one which you have made), you deny the evidence of a Creator God everywhere.

And yes, one of the things that propelled me towards Christ was being in Science in University. I was a physical geography major, with a minor in biology. I heard in my geography and geology classes that the rocks were basically dated by the plants and animals that were in the rocks. In Biology, I heard that the plants and animals were dated by the rocks.

This kind of circular reason found no answers from my professors in that very secular university. That is when someone gave me a book on creation. I became a young earth creationist. Except I did NOT know who the creator was. I started searching. God found me!! I did not find him.

I pray for the many atheists on this thread, that God will find them too. Then you won't have to worry about incorrect metaphors and analogies, or debating any issues. You will find Christ to be all satisfying, and he will change your heart, soul and mind in a way you didn't know you needed to be changed!

"Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." John 14:6.

There is no stronger verse I can give you. I pray that God will open your hearts, so this one verse will change your life, and you will be like me and others, once lost, now found!

PS. I do not think that only young earth Creationists are saved. Just wrong about their dating!

I also read God Delusion and found it to be extremely lacking in evidence. I have read several excellent refutations of that book, if you want, message me and I will find the name of at least one I have hiding in my bookshelves.
Please, I wasn't trying to be disrespectful, I understand in the chain of beliefs that God is much higher up the ladder, I wasn't trying to parallel the two... I was just highlighting the futility of the argument and how debates of this nature always end up.
 
Aug 25, 2013
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you already admitted you don't know everything that can be known.
that includes the possiblity of God.
so, you do not know if there is a God.
neither do you know there is not.
Hi Zone, that would be an agnostic position. Dawkins put it this way: "... Completely impartial agnostic. 'God's existence and non-existence are exactly equiprobable.' " (p. 50, The God Delusion).

I suspect most people, however, tend to lean to one side or the other of this divide. They don't think the odds are "exactly equiprobable."

I am guessing, for example, you are not an agnostic when it comes to Ganesha (or Lord Ganesh), the Hindu elephant-headed god. Many atheists are as certain God doesn't exist as they are that Lord Ganesh doesn't. Personally, I don't have to know everything there is to know in the universe to reject belief in the Hindu gods. If none of the gods has ever communicated with me, and I have never found a reason to think they exist, why would I consider their existence possible?
 
Sep 14, 2013
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well, how are you at researching History?
do you have any problem trusting Historical records? i mean things you can check yourself.
I'm ok with researching history lol.

Also if I can expand on the dragon thing, I forgot to add that if suddenly millions of people believed there was a dragon in his garage, then a book was circulating telling people there was a dragon in the garage then it wouldn't make it any more plausible. If then I challenged the people who believed it they would then point to this book as evidence that he has a dragon in his garage. Again not making it any more plausible.
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
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Hi Zone, that would be an agnostic position. Dawkins put it this way: "... Completely impartial agnostic. 'God's existence and non-existence are exactly equiprobable.' " (p. 50, The God Delusion).
he sure invested a lifetime getting all bothered about something that summed up to ZERO for him.
:)
and he never proved a thing.
he just pontificated a lot and got loaded.
poor man.
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
164
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I'm ok with researching history lol.

Also if I can expand on the dragon thing, I forgot to add that if suddenly millions of people believed there was a dragon in his garage, then a book was circulating telling people there was a dragon in the garage then it wouldn't make it any more plausible. If then I challenged the people who believed it they would then point to this book as evidence that he has a dragon in his garage. Again not making it any more plausible.
okay...i get the cheesy analogies (they're awful):)

not sure you're serious though - what i'm proposing will require you be interested enough to do the research.

are you against all books?
because you would need to reference some.
the internet will do.
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
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I'm ok with researching history lol.
so anyways IntoTheVoid ....if you accept the challenge:rolleyes:, we can start a thread in Miscellaneous.
i'm thinking it would be something like this:

zone asks IntoTheVoid:

- so, now that we established there was a Roman Empire, is it possible to know for certain there were Caesars who ruled? and can we know their names?

IntoTheVoid says something like:

well, which ones, because i need to check the Historical records.

zone says:

okay. do we know Caeser Augustus existed?

....

like that.
lemme know:)
i'll be travelling for a week, but Q & A is easy from the road, since my android is smarter than i am.
bye for now...zone
 
Aug 25, 2013
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he (Richard Dawkins) sure invested a lifetime getting all bothered about something that summed up to ZERO for him.
But, you see, it doesn't sum up to zero for him. At every step creationists are attacking evolution and attempting to prevent it from being taught; and what is Dawkins? He is a teacher of evolutionary biology. This issue of God affects him directly.

Oh, and he’s not invested his life time into attacking belief in God. He’s written only one book on the subject and about five on evolution. Since about age 15 he’s spent most of his intellectual resources studying and researching evolution. Not till his 50s did he begin addressing the issues surrounding religion. I think he became interested in 1995 when he appointed Simonyi Professor for the Public Understanding of Science at Oxford University. This role made it his business.

zone said:
and he never proved a thing.
As a devout Christian, that’s what you might expect, but I’ve talked with people on-line who were pushed into atheism by reading The God Delusion, and a two or three years back I saw a thread asking anyone who’d become an atheist from reading Dawkin’s book to respond. I was surprised at the number who owed their atheism to Dawkins.

zone said:
he just ... got loaded.
poor man.
What do you man by this comment?