Attack of the Judaizers

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
C

chubbena

Guest
What? The 2 are not mutually exclusive. No need to call me names Elin. Is that loving? Is that good fruit?
A godsend to test your patience and understanding of the Bible. If you survive all the tricks you are passed.
 
Jan 19, 2013
11,909
141
0
How did Abraham obey Yahweh's Laws if they didnt exist?

Genesis 26:5, "Because Abraham obeyed My voice, and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes, and My Laws."
What is so hard about this? He kept the ones he had, Ge 17:1,9, 18:19, 22:18, 26:4-5.
 
C

chubbena

Guest
Acts 10:15 "Do not call something unclean if God has made it clean."
Mark 7:19
since it enters not his heart but his stomach, and is expelled?” (Thus he declared all foods clean.)
Col 2:16
Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink, or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath.

There are more than enough posts that addressed the verses you quoted but if one ignores context then doctors and health experts are the only hope.
 
Jan 19, 2013
11,909
141
0
Added words "Thus he declared all foods clean"
Yes, also added in the revelation spoken by the Son in these last days (Heb 1:1-2) through the NT writers in Ro14:14; Col 2:16-17; 1Tim 4:3-5; Heb 9:10; 1Co 8:8, etc.
 
B

BradC

Guest
Romans 3:19-31

19 Now we know that whatever the Law says, it speaks to those who are under the Law, so that [the murmurs and excuses of] every mouth may be hushed and all the world may be held accountable to God.
20 For no person will be justified (made righteous, acquitted, and judged acceptable) in His sight by observing the works prescribed by the Law (or in keeping the commandments). For [the real function of] the Law is to make men recognize and be conscious of sin [not mere perception, but an acquaintance with sin which works toward repentance, faith, and holy character].
21 But now the righteousness of God has been revealed independently and altogether apart from the Law, although actually it is attested by the Law and the Prophets,
22 Namely, the righteousness of God which comes by believing with personal trust and confident reliance on Jesus Christ (the Messiah). [And it is meant] for all who believe. For there is no distinction,
23 Since all have sinned and are falling short of the honor and glory which God bestows and receives.
24 [All] are justified and made upright and in right standing with God, freely and gratuitously by His grace (His unmerited favor and mercy), through the redemption which is [provided] in Christ Jesus,
25 Whom God put forward [before the eyes of all] as a mercy seat and propitiation by His blood [the cleansing and life-giving sacrifice of atonement and reconciliation, to be received] through faith. This was to show God’s righteousness, because in His divine forbearance He had passed over and ignored former sins without punishment.
26 It was to demonstrate and prove at the present time ([d]in the now season) that He Himself is righteous and that He justifies and accepts as righteous him who has [true] faith in Jesus.
27 Then what becomes of [our] pride and [our] boasting? It is excluded (banished, ruled out entirely). On what principle? [On the principle] of doing good deeds? No, but on the principle of faith.
28 For we hold that a man is justified and made upright by faith independent of and distinctly apart from good deeds (works of the Law). [The observance of the Law has nothing to do with justification.]
29 Or is God merely [the God] of Jews? Is He not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also,
30 Since it is one and the same God Who will justify the circumcised by faith [which germinated from Abraham] and the uncircumcised through their [newly acquired] faith. [For it is the same trusting faith in both cases, a firmly relying faith in Jesus Christ].
31 Do we then by [this] faith make the Law of no effect, overthrow it or make it a dead letter? Certainly not! On the contrary, we confirm and establish and uphold the Law. But not as a means of justification or being made righteous. The law has no power to justify the sinner or make him righteous or give the inheritance of eternal life. A certain wealthy ruler kept all the commandments from his youth and never inherited eternal life in (Mark 10 & Luke 18).

Gal 3:21-24

21 Is the Law then contrary and opposed to the promises of God? Of course not! For if a Law had been given which could confer [spiritual] life, then righteousnessand right standing with God would certainly have come by Law.
22 But the Scriptures [picture all mankind as sinners] shut up and imprisoned by sin, so that [the inheritance, blessing] which was promised through faith in Jesus Christ (the Messiah) might be given (released, delivered, and committed) to [all] those who believe [who adhere to and trust in and rely on Him].
23 Now before the faith came, we were perpetually guarded under the Law, kept in custody in preparation for the faith that was destined to be revealed (unveiled, disclosed),
24 So that the Law served[to us Jews] as our trainer [our guardian, our guide to Christ, to lead us] until Christ [came], that we might be justified (declared righteous, put in right standing with God) by and through faith.

The purpose of the law was never given to be kept, it was given to make all men see that they were sinners and exceedingly great sinners without excuse or exception. When the law was broken those who transgressed the law were judged with condemnation. If any man did not keep the Sabbath he was executed to death or cut off. You want to live by the law and be under its condemnation? I don't want that, but I will take what Christ did when he was judged through death for every time I broke the law and sinned. He suffered death on my behalf, not so that I would transgress the law but that I would come under grace and not the condemnation of the law. If I take myself from being under grace and put myself under the law, even if I have good intentions, I allow sin to have dominion over me (Rom 6:14,15) and I put myself under a curse (Gal 3:10) instead of having grace bring redemption into my experience through faith (Gal 4:5) giving me a good conscience.
 

Angela53510

Senior Member
Jan 24, 2011
11,782
2,951
113
Just to interrupt a bit with something not from the Bible.

Many long term studies have been done using 7th Day Adventists, who maintain a vegetarian diet, don't smoke or drink, and promote exercise.

They all show that these factors lower cancer risk by incredible amounts, and life span is lengthened.

I am not a 7th day Adventist, but I do try and eat the way they do. I call it my "God" diet, eating foods as close to the natural form that God made them. I also exercise regularly.

My husband eats what I cook him, but after gaining some weight from eating too many donuts at work, he became pre-diabetic. We went to a workshop on what to eat, to gain control over blood sugar, and it was almost the same as my diet. Meat was allowed, but only once a week for red meat, and fish once a week for Omega Oils.

His sugar levels have been back to normal for several years, since he whole heartedly embraced my diet.

Anyway, I do believe God created us to function in certain ways, and the North American diet is NOT it! I do believe God gave people the freedom to eat what they wanted after the flood, but until the 20th century, most people ate a plant based diet, and cancer was almost unknown.

People are killing themselves with bad lifestyle choices. I don't think God is happy.

Here is the link to the studies. I urge you to read it, and then think about what God wants you to eat. This is NOT about following Old Testament Levitical laws, but really thinking about what is healthy, and what pleases God, as we keep our bodies as a temple for the Holy Spirit. Not because of legalism, but because some lifestyle choices are closer to what God wants for us!

Adventist Health Studies - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

We are not to go back to the Old Testament laws, but maybe looking at Genesis before the flood is a better idea than anyone ever knew!
 
Jan 19, 2013
11,909
141
0
Elin said:
Karraster said:
Elin said:
Karrraster said:
Scavenger animals and sea scavengers are nasty. Science agrees. Swine eats filth and that changes to flesh on their bones within 4 hours. Yuk. They are definitely not clean, and instructions not to eat them are for our benefit, as with all the other instructions. Just because we don't understand and don't want to obey,
we go to all lengths to make null and void the Torah.
Well then, according to your meaning that it was about health,
God said the same foods were healthy (Ge 9:3),
then unhealthy (Lev 11),
and then healthy again (Mk 7:19; Ro 14:14; 1Tim 4:3-5, etc.)
I don't know if this is deliberately designed to confuse people, but you sure confuse me.
I suggest it is your confused understanding of God's clear word above that is confusing.
Just because we don't understand and don't want to obey,
we go to all lengths to make null and void the Torah
Methinks the pot is calling the kettle black.

Do you not do the same in placing yourself above the revelation spoken by the Son in these last days (Heb 1:1-2),
through the NT writers in Mk 7:19; Ro 14:4; 1Tim 4:3-5, etc.?
No need to call me names Elin. Is that loving?
The old cultural trump card. . .
Is that good fruit?
Do you see any difference between that and labeling the NT (Mk 7:19; Ro 14:14, 1Tim 4:3-5, etc.)
as "going to all lengths to make null and void the Torah"?
I don't have a bone to pick with you,
Nor I with you, I'm simply addressing your remarks.
nor was my original statement anything like you are making it out to be
The record above speaks for itself.
Wow! How much time did you spend planning this attack? You know that time could have been spent more productively, like reading your Bible.:) and seeing how much that owners manual is relevant still today.
The old cultural trump card again. . .
 
Jan 19, 2013
11,909
141
0
Please go read chapter one of Daniel

verse 9 - But Daniel purposed in his heart that he would not defile himself with the portion of the king's delicacies nor with the wine which he drank; therefor he requested of the chief of the eunuchs that he might not defile himself. (his body)

verse 12 - Please test your servants for ten days, and let them give us vegetables to eat and water to drink.
verse 13 - Then let our appearance be examined before you, and the appearance of the young men who eat the portion of the king's delicacies and as you see fit, so deal with your servants.
verse 15 - And at the end of ten days their features appeared better and fatter in flesh than all the young men who ate the portion of the king's delicacies.

As much as you'd like to say it is not about health - in this case the Bible disagrees with you. Daniel was after Leviticus by the way. Please trust me
the clean and unclean were given for health reasons too in Leviticus.
That is your personal notion, which enjoys no Biblical basis.

You are not dealing with the fact that all those food were made clean again in the NT (Mk 7:19;
Ro 14:14; 1Tim 3:4-5; Heb 9:9; Col 2:16-17; 1Co 8:8.
Read them.

So how did all that "unhealthy" food in Leviticus 11 become "healthy" again in the NT?
 

JesusLives

Senior Member
Oct 11, 2013
14,551
2,173
113
Elin;136186 [COLOR=#0000ff said:
Are all the herbs healthy, are not some poisonous?
[/COLOR]You must reckon with that in your understanding of what God said.

Sorry NO Poisonous food in the PERFECT Garden of Eden at creation Genesis chapters one and two.

No animal flesh before the Fall
, for there was no death in the world, including of animals to eat, until after Adam rebelled.


What are you saying?

How do you know what he said to Adam and Eve, other than your own conjecture, if it is not recorded in Scripture?

Read Genesis Chapters one and two... Who do you think God is talking to about the food? Himself?

So what does the "everything that lives and moves, I give you for food" of Scripture show about "clean" and "unclean?"
Were not some of the things that lived and moved unhealthy?

One more time. . .it's not about health
. . .it's about provision.

They got to decide what was beneficial and what was not.

They chose a healthier diet than you are giving them credit for since they were living up to and over 900 years back then.
After the flood and meat eating started their age dropped dramatically. Bible recorded. You keep saying it isn't about health let the book of Genesis show you the difference.

What are you saying?

What is not written down that you know God said?

The word of God is being handled much too loosely.
[/QUOTE]

If you would go back and read my previous post you would see Genesis records that God said not me loosely handling it.

 

JesusLives

Senior Member
Oct 11, 2013
14,551
2,173
113
That is your personal notion, which enjoys no Biblical basis.

You are not dealing with the fact that all those food were made clean again in the NT (Mk 7:19;
Ro 14:14; 1Tim 3:4-5; Heb 9:9; Col 2:16-17; 1Co 8:8.
Read them.

So how did all that "unhealthy" food in Leviticus 11 become "healthy" again in the NT?
When you tell me that Daniel Chapter one is no biblical basis - there's something really wrong here. You are on my prayer list. If you think the Bible is not biblical.

The unhealthy food is still unhealthy for human consumption, but people eat it anyway - wonder much about where all the health diseases are coming from, cancer, diabeties and many more?
 
D

danschance

Guest
There are more than enough posts that addressed the verses you quoted but if one ignores context then doctors and health experts are the only hope.
Are you saying the verses I posted are out of context? Please show me how they are taken out of context. Can you even explain what "out of context" means?
Acts 10:15 "Do not call something unclean if God has made it clean."
Mark 7:19
since it enters not his heart but his stomach, and is expelled?” (Thus he declared all foods clean.)
Col 2:16
Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink, or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath.
 
D

danschance

Guest
Just to interrupt a bit with something not from the Bible.

Many long term studies have been done using 7th Day Adventists, who maintain a vegetarian diet, don't smoke or drink, and promote exercise.

They all show that these factors lower cancer risk by incredible amounts, and life span is lengthened.

I am not a 7th day Adventist, but I do try and eat the way they do. I call it my "God" diet, eating foods as close to the natural form that God made them. I also exercise regularly.

My husband eats what I cook him, but after gaining some weight from eating too many donuts at work, he became pre-diabetic. We went to a workshop on what to eat, to gain control over blood sugar, and it was almost the same as my diet. Meat was allowed, but only once a week for red meat, and fish once a week for Omega Oils.

His sugar levels have been back to normal for several years, since he whole heartedly embraced my diet.

Anyway, I do believe God created us to function in certain ways, and the North American diet is NOT it! I do believe God gave people the freedom to eat what they wanted after the flood, but until the 20th century, most people ate a plant based diet, and cancer was almost unknown.

People are killing themselves with bad lifestyle choices. I don't think God is happy.

Here is the link to the studies. I urge you to read it, and then think about what God wants you to eat. This is NOT about following Old Testament Levitical laws, but really thinking about what is healthy, and what pleases God, as we keep our bodies as a temple for the Holy Spirit. Not because of legalism, but because some lifestyle choices are closer to what God wants for us!

Adventist Health Studies - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

We are not to go back to the Old Testament laws, but maybe looking at Genesis before the flood is a better idea than anyone ever knew!
Yes, eating healthy does promote being healthier. However, diet alone does not guarantee health. John the baptist ate locusts and honey, Elijah ate bread and water. Both of them were fed a diet by God and yet few of us would call that a healthy diet. So do we rely on eating healthy for our health or rely on God for our health?
 
Dec 29, 2013
599
6
0
Think, if the food laws were nullified, why is there not one example, in Acts thru Revelation, of Christians eating swine and other "unclean" things. Think again. If the food laws were abrogated why did Peter, several years into the New Covenant, say "I have never eaten anything that is common or unclean" (Acts 10:14)? The purpose of Peters vision was to show him, not that the unclean animals were now clean, but as stated in verse 28: "God hath showed me that I should not call any man common or unclean." The food laws were still in effect, we should not eat pig or catfish anymore than we should not eat chimpanzees, dogs, and snakes, etc. as do the heathen. Think about it.
 
C

chubbena

Guest
Are you saying the verses I posted are out of context? Please show me how they are taken out of context. Can you even explain what "out of context" means?
have not all these verses and "context" been addressed somewhere in this thread?
 
Jan 19, 2013
11,909
141
0
If you would go back and read my previous post you would see Genesis records that God said not me loosely handling it.
You are not dealing with the fact that all those food were made clean again in the NT (Mk 7:19;
Ro 14:14; 1Tim 3:4-5; Heb 9:9; Col 2:16-17; 1Co 8:8.
Read them.
 
Jan 19, 2013
11,909
141
0
Elin said:
You are not dealing with the fact that all those food were made clean again in the NT (Mk 7:19;
Ro 14:14; 1Tim 3:4-5; Heb 9:9; Col 2:16-17; 1Co 8:8.
Read them.

So how did all that "unhealthy" food in Leviticus 11 become "healthy" again in the NT?
When you tell me that Daniel Chapter one is no biblical basis - there's something really wrong here. You are on my prayer list. If you think the Bible is not biblical.

The unhealthy food is still unhealthy
for human consumption, but people eat it anyway - wonder much about where all the health diseases are coming from, cancer, diabeties and many more?
You are not dealing with the fact that all those food were made clean again in the NT (Mk 7:19;
Ro 14:14; 1Tim 3:4-5; Heb 9:9; Col 2:16-17; 1Co 8:8.
Read them.

So how did all that "unhealthy" food in Leviticus 11 become "healthy" again in the NT?

 
Jan 19, 2013
11,909
141
0
Think, if the food laws were nullified, why is there not one example, in Acts thru Revelation, of Christians eating swine and other "unclean" things. Think again. If the food laws were abrogated why did Peter, several years into the New Covenant, say "I have never eaten anything that is common or unclean" (Acts 10:14)? The purpose of Peters vision was to show him, not that the unclean animals were now clean, but as stated in verse 28: "God hath showed me that I should not call any man common or unclean." The food laws were still in effect, we should not eat pig or catfish anymore than we should not eat chimpanzees, dogs, and snakes, etc. as do the heathen. Think about it.
What part of the revelation spoken by the Son in these last days (Heb 1:1-2) through the NT writers in
Ro 14:14; 1Co 8:8; 1Tim 3:4-5; Col 2:16-17; Heb 9:9; Mk 7:19 do you not understand?
 
Last edited:
C

chubbena

Guest
The Pharisees and all the Jews do not eat unless they give their hands a ceremonial washing - a TRADITION.
The Pharisees asked: Why don't your disciples live according to the TRADITION of the elders instead of eating food with "UNCLEAN HANDS"?
TRADITION: Food becomes UNCLEAN if eaten with UNCLEAN HANDS.
Yeshua said: You have let go of THE COMMANDS OF GOD in order to observe your own TRADITIONS.
He declared: All foods CLEAN - even when they are eaten with UNCLEAN HANDS.
This does not contradict with THE COMMANDS OF GOD which say certain animals are UNCLEAN and are not fitted for food.