Attack of the Judaizers

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Jan 19, 2013
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Elin said:
Nor is it difficult for me to understand either, yes there were unclean animals.

But that is not the issue.
The issue is whether the distinction was about health.

We know the distinction for sacrifices (Lev 1-7) was not about health.

And we know the distinctions in Lev 11 were not about health, for the same foods were clean until Lev,
then unclean until the NT, when they were clean again (Mk 7:19; Ro 14:14).
You sure about that?

Lev 11:2 "Speak to the children of Israel, saying, 'These are the animals which you may eat among all the animals that are on the earth:

Lev 11:4 Nevertheless these you shall not eat among those that chew the cud or those that have cloven hooves: the camel, because it chews the cud but does not have cloven hooves, is unclean to you;

Lev 11:8 Their flesh you shall not eat, and their carcasses you shall not touch. They are unclean to you.

Lev 11:11 They shall be an abomination to you; you shall not eat their flesh, but you shall regard their carcasses as an abomination.

etc. down through the chapter...

Lev 11:47 to distinguish between the unclean and the clean, and between the animal that may be eaten and the animal that may not be eaten.' "

There is not one word about sacrifices,
And?

The issue is health.
Sacrifices have no bearing on health issues.

I could not agree more. Clean meat does not become unclean and unclean meat does not become clean. In the NT, it refers to what is clean to eat...

1Ti 4:4 For every creature of God is good, and nothing is to be refused if it is received with thanksgiving;
1Ti 4:5 for it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer.
. . . . .Ge 9:3 Every thing that lives and moves, I give you as food.

What part of "every thing that lives and moves, I give you as food," "every creature" and "nothing is to be refused" do you not understand?

It's not a command to eat everything, it's the provision of everything.

They get to decide what is beneficial and what is not.
 

WomanLovesTX

Senior Member
Jan 1, 2010
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The Pharisees and all the Jews do not eat unless they give their hands a ceremonial washing - a TRADITION.
The Pharisees asked: Why don't your disciples live according to the TRADITION of the elders instead of eating food with "UNCLEAN HANDS"?
TRADITION: Food becomes UNCLEAN if eaten with UNCLEAN HANDS.
Yeshua said: You have let go of THE COMMANDS OF GOD in order to observe your own TRADITIONS.
He declared: All foods CLEAN - even when they are eaten with UNCLEAN HANDS.
This does not contradict with THE COMMANDS OF GOD which say certain animals are UNCLEAN and are not fitted for food.
Looking at Noah and what God commanded. He told Noah Gen 6:21 And take thou unto thee of all food that is eaten, and thou shalt gather it to thee; and it shall be for food for thee, and for them.
Gen 6:22 Thus did Noah; according to all that God commanded him, so did he.

God told Noah to take only food that is eatable. He obeyed.

Now look what Eve did. Gen 3:6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.

I think Eve's sin of disobeying God of what He said Do not eat, is just the same, today people say ham, bacon and pork ribs and chops, are so tasty and good. Now God never called pig "food", but many believe they can override God's commandments because they are confused when God said all foods, eat and enjoy. Just be careful what you call food. Make sure it aligns with God's definition of food.

None of the NT scriptures (Ro 14:14; 1Co 8:8; 1Tim 3:4-5; Col 2:16-17; Heb 9:9; Mk 7:1) relate to being able to now eat the non-food animals or non-food plants and yes, it all poops out, if you are fortunate enough to not get a worm on the brain.

[video=youtube;NwstyazpFpE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NwstyazpFpE[/video]
 
Jan 19, 2013
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None of the NT scriptures (Ro 14:14; 1Co 8:8; 1Tim 3:4-5; Col 2:16-17; Heb 9:9; Mk 7:1) relate to being able to now eat the non-food animals or non-food plants
You are not dealing with Ge 9:3.

"Everything that lives and moves I give you for food."
 
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Josh321

Senior Member
Sep 3, 2013
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and people saying food is unclean1 Timothy 4:4-5

King James Version (KJV)

4 For every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving:
5 For it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer.


that's THUS SAITH THE LORD, IGNORE THAT NOW WHY DON'T YOU ( you will :(...) shouldn't that settle it? because God said so?

 
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danschance

Guest
have not all these verses and "context" been addressed somewhere in this thread?
So are you claiming once a topic or scripture is discussed, we can't go back to it? Are you claiming this is a rule of some kind?
 

Josh321

Senior Member
Sep 3, 2013
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So are you claiming once a topic or scripture is discussed, we can't go back to it? Are you claiming this is a rule of some kind?
i can keep posting this forever, everytime i see someone post unclean think i will, maybe someday the word will stick?

1 Timothy 4:4-5

King James Version (KJV)

4 For every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving:
5 For it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer.
 

WomanLovesTX

Senior Member
Jan 1, 2010
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You are not dealing with Ge 9:3.

"Everything that lives and moves I give you for food."
OK. I'll be the first one to admit that this sounds like any animal and every animal is acceptable for food - bats, rats, pigs, cats, dogs, etc. However, it is an interesting fact that God told Noah to put a pair (male and female) of every type of unclean animal on the ark and 7 pairs (male and female) of every type of clean animal on the ark.

If Noah ate the unclean animals, just because God said he could eat anything that moves, then we would not be having this discussion, would we?
 
K

Kerry

Guest
The unclean animals were for sacrifice and not food. Noah was the only man found righteous. How does one become righteous? by the blood. Afterward all animals were to for meat where as before they only ate fruit and vegetables.
 
K

Kerry

Guest
Oh and the skins of the sacrifice were used to cover their nakedness.
 
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danschance

Guest
Think, if the food laws were nullified, why is there not one example, in Acts thru Revelation, of Christians eating swine and other "unclean" things. Think again. If the food laws were abrogated why did Peter, several years into the New Covenant, say "I have never eaten anything that is common or unclean" (Acts 10:14)? The purpose of Peters vision was to show him, not that the unclean animals were now clean, but as stated in verse 28: "God hath showed me that I should not call any man common or unclean." The food laws were still in effect, we should not eat pig or catfish anymore than we should not eat chimpanzees, dogs, and snakes, etc. as do the heathen. Think about it.
God ordered Peter to "Kill and eat" unclean animals but you claim that has nothing to do with food? You have taken that completely out of context.

1) Peter was hungry.
2) Peter was waiting to eat.
3) Food was being prepared.
4) Peter has a vision of all kinds of unclean animals (including chimpanzees, catfish and snakes).
5) God orders Peter to Kill and eat the unclean animals.
6) Peter protested by saying He has never eaten such things.
7) God scolds Peter by saying "What God has cleansed do not call unclean.
8) Then it repeats two more times.

Which of those 8 points above are about gentiles? LOL NONE!
 
Sep 1, 2013
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There are more than enough posts that addressed the verses you quoted but if one ignores context then doctors and health experts are the only hope.

You old covenant/contract breakers ignore everything (and I say old contract breakers because this is the contract you have chosen to be under and you are all breaking it). You completely ignore the scripture I posted where God said to Noah “Every moving thing that lives shall be food for you.” All you can say to that is “Ya but there were unclean animals in the ark so this implies that Noah was given all the same commandments that were given to the children of Israel.”


Absurd reasoning.... just because God rested on the 7[SUP]th[/SUP] day at creation and there were unclean animals in the ark this is proof that all the laws given through Moses were given to the men of God prior to the exodus.

And let’s not forget about the decree that went out of Jerusalem that you all keep ignoring. And you keep posting that same out of context scripture to say that the decree was actually siding with those who were troubling the gentiles… that the decree was to actually enforce the teaching to the gentiles the laws of Moses every Sabbath (totally ignoring the fact that the laws of Moses included circumcision). And every time you old covenant breakers get debunked you start a new thread using the same tired old scriptures that didn’t work during the last go around.

What I like about pigs is that they seem to be cheery animals and make friendly pets.... and they taste good too.
 
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danschance

Guest
Looking at Noah and what God commanded. He told Noah Gen 6:21 And take thou unto thee of all food that is eaten, and thou shalt gather it to thee; and it shall be for food for thee, and for them.
Gen 6:22 Thus did Noah; according to all that God commanded him, so did he.

God told Noah to take only food that is eatable. He obeyed.

Now look what Eve did. Gen 3:6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.

I think Eve's sin of disobeying God of what He said Do not eat, is just the same, today people say ham, bacon and pork ribs and chops, are so tasty and good. Now God never called pig "food", but many believe they can override God's commandments because they are confused when God said all foods, eat and enjoy. Just be careful what you call food. Make sure it aligns with God's definition of food.

None of the NT scriptures (Ro 14:14; 1Co 8:8; 1Tim 3:4-5; Col 2:16-17; Heb 9:9; Mk 7:1) relate to being able to now eat the non-food animals or non-food plants and yes, it all poops out, if you are fortunate enough to not get a worm on the brain.

Chicken is a kosher animal but if not cooked or handled properly, it can cause death.
[video=youtube;oF0-3EuHQLg]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oF0-3EuHQLg[/video]
 

Hizikyah

Senior Member
Aug 25, 2013
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God ordered Peter to "Kill and eat" unclean animals but you claim that has nothing to do with food? You have taken that completely out of context.

1) Peter was hungry.
2) Peter was waiting to eat.
3) Food was being prepared.
4) Peter has a vision of all kinds of unclean animals (including chimpanzees, catfish and snakes).
5) God orders Peter to Kill and eat the unclean animals.
6) Peter protested by saying He has never eaten such things.
7) God scolds Peter by saying "What God has cleansed do not call unclean.
8) Then it repeats two more times.

Which of those 8 points above are about gentiles? LOL NONE!
I have shown this more than once, you never cease to twist Scripture.

ACTS 10:28, "And he said to them; You yourselves are aware how it is not Lawful for a Yahdai to associate with one of another nation, or to enter his house; but Yahweh has shown me that I must not call any man common or unclean."
 
K

Kerry

Guest
How many here think that keeping law makes them righteous and in good order with God?
 
Oct 31, 2011
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God ordered Peter to "Kill and eat" unclean animals but you claim that has nothing to do with food? You have taken that completely out of context.

1) Peter was hungry.
2) Peter was waiting to eat.
3) Food was being prepared.
4) Peter has a vision of all kinds of unclean animals (including chimpanzees, catfish and snakes).
5) God orders Peter to Kill and eat the unclean animals.
6) Peter protested by saying He has never eaten such things.
7) God scolds Peter by saying "What God has cleansed do not call unclean.
8) Then it repeats two more times.

Which of those 8 points above are about gentiles? LOL NONE!
If you look at the context, and read all the scripture before and after this, the spiritual meaning of this is that God was also a God of the gentiles, the gentiles were not unclean and it led to Peter and Paul's ministry of them. That is the message that God was wanting for us.

The spiritual message of eating and being clean is deep and profound. I don't think we are to get stuck in the physical way that God explains the spiritual to us, or disregard the physical explanations, either. If we follow the spiritual teaching of both these directions to consider everything clean and eat only clean food as a physical part of a spiritual teaching and eat everything as created by God and OK, we would see how each animal is useful to us, we could even eat the unclean ones for what goes in the stomach is not the issue. We would respect all for the purpose God created them for. We could still choose to not eat unclean animals to remind us of the spiritual meaning of that.
 

Hizikyah

Senior Member
Aug 25, 2013
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How many here think that keeping law makes them righteous and in good order with God?

Here is what I believe, obeying Yahweh's Law is proper behavior of one who has accepted Messiah.

Revelation 12:17, "And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and went to make war with those who forsook her seed; her seed being those who keep the Laws of Yahweh, and have the testimony of Yahshua Messiah."

Revelation 14:12, "In this manner are the saints purified--by keeping the Laws of Yahweh, in conformity with the faith in Yahshua Messiah."
 

WomanLovesTX

Senior Member
Jan 1, 2010
1,390
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Prophecy or History?

Isa 66:3 He that killeth an ox is as if he slew a man; he that sacrificeth a lamb, as if he cut off a dog's neck; he that offereth an oblation, as if he offered swine's blood; he that burneth incense, as if he blessed an idol. Yea, they have chosen their own ways, and their soul delighteth in their abominations.
Isa 66:4 I also will choose their delusions, and will bring their fears upon them; because when I called, none did answer; when I spake, they did not hear: but they did evil before mine eyes, and chose that in which I delighted not.

Isa 66:16 For by fire and by his sword will the LORD plead with all flesh: and the slain of the LORD shall be many.
Isa 66:17 They that sanctify themselves, and purify themselves in the gardens behind one tree in the midst, eating swine's flesh, and the abomination, and the mouse, shall be consumed together, saith the LORD.

Isa 65:2 I have spread out my hands all the day unto a rebellious people, which walketh in a way that was not good, after their own thoughts;
Isa 65:3 A people that provoketh me to anger continually to my face; that sacrificeth in gardens, and burneth incense upon altars of brick;
Isa 65:4 Which remain among the graves, and lodge in the monuments, which eat swine's flesh, and broth of abominable things is in their vessels;
Isa 65:5 Which say, Stand by thyself, come not near to me; for I am holier than thou. These are a smoke in my nose, a fire that burneth all the day.
Isa 65:6 Behold, it is written before me: I will not keep silence, but will recompense, even recompense into their bosom,
Isa 65:7 Your iniquities, and the iniquities of your fathers together, saith the LORD, which have burned incense upon the mountains, and blasphemed me upon the hills: therefore will I measure their former work into their bosom.
Isa 65:8 Thus saith the LORD, As the new wine is found in the cluster, and one saith, Destroy it not; for a blessing is in it: so will I do for my servants' sakes, that I may not destroy them all.

Mat 8:28 And when he was come to the other side into the country of the Gergesenes, there met him two possessed with devils, coming out of the tombs, exceeding fierce, so that no man might pass by that way.
Mat 8:29 And, behold, they cried out, saying, What have we to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God? art thou come hither to torment us before the time?
Mat 8:30 And there was a good way off from them an herd of many swine feeding.
Mat 8:31 So the devils besought him, saying, If thou cast us out, suffer us to go away into the herd of swine.
Mat 8:32 And he said unto them, Go. And when they were come out, they went into the herd of swine: and, behold, the whole herd of swine ran violently down a steep place into the sea, and perished in the waters.
Mat 8:33 And they that kept them fled, and went their ways into the city, and told every thing, and what was befallen to the possessed of the devils.
Mat 8:34 And, behold, the whole city came out to meet Jesus: and when they saw him, they besought him that he would depart out of their coasts.

Mar 5:11 Now there was there nigh unto the mountains a great herd of swine feeding.
Mar 5:12 And all the devils besought him, saying, Send us into the swine, that we may enter into them.
Mar 5:13 And forthwith Jesus gave them leave. And the unclean spirits went out, and entered into the swine: and the herd ran violently down a steep place into the sea, (they were about two thousand;) and were choked in the sea.
Mar 5:14 And they that fed the swine fled, and told it in the city, and in the country. And they went out to see what it was that was done.
Mar 5:15 And they come to Jesus, and see him that was possessed with the devil, and had the legion, sitting, and clothed, and in his right mind: and they were afraid.
Mar 5:16 And they that saw it told them how it befell to him that was possessed with the devil, and also concerning the swine.
Mar 5:17 And they began to pray him to depart out of their coasts

Luk 8:32 And there was there an herd of many swine feeding on the mountain: and they besought him that he would suffer them to enter into them. And he suffered them.
Luk 8:33 Then went the devils out of the man, and entered into the swine: and the herd ran violently down a steep place into the lake, and were choked.
Luk 8:34 When they that fed them saw what was done, they fled, and went and told it in the city and in the country.
Luk 8:35 Then they went out to see what was done; and came to Jesus, and found the man, out of whom the devils were departed, sitting at the feet of Jesus, clothed, and in his right mind: and they were afraid.
Luk 8:36 They also which saw it told them by what means he that was possessed of the devils was healed.
Luk 8:37 Then the whole multitude of the country of the Gadarenes round about besought him to depart from them; for they were taken with great fear: and he went up into the ship, and returned back again.

OOPS! Jesus bad! He just caused their lively hood to be destroyed. No wonder they asked him to leave.

Deu 17:1 Thou shalt not sacrifice unto the LORD thy God any bullock, or sheep, wherein is blemish, or any evilfavouredness: for that is an abomination unto the LORD thy God.

Lev 18:26 Ye shall therefore keep my statutes and my judgments, and shall not commit any of these abominations; neither any of your own nation, nor any stranger that sojourneth among you:

I know! You are a Gentile, the church, the set apart ones from all of Israel. Whatever the nation of Israel was suppose to represent, Jesus came and changed all of it up. The Old Testament is now old and obsolete to you. But, only parts like the Sabbath and God's Feasts. It is still good to obey not commit adultery. But you are in adultery now and you don't even see it.

You know the saying, whoever does not learn from history is bound to repeat it.
 

loveme1

Senior Member
Oct 30, 2011
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Revelation 2

18 And unto the angel of the church in Thyatira write; These things saith the Son of God, who hath his eyes like unto a flame of fire, and his feet are like fine brass;
19 I know thy works, and charity, and service, and faith, and thy patience, and thy works; and the last to be more than the first.
20 Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols.
One knows that eating certain things offered to "idols" is not pleasing to the Messiah.
 
D

danschance

Guest
I have shown this more than once, you never cease to twist Scripture.

ACTS 10:28, "And he said to them; You yourselves are aware how it is not Lawful for a Yahdai to associate with one of another nation, or to enter his house; but Yahweh has shown me that I must not call any man common or unclean."
OK, then why would God say "Kill(unclean animals) and eat" three times, if he did not mean it? Was God lying to Peter? Should we ignore the commands of God?

You judaizers never cease to amaze me on how far you are willing to twist the clear commands of God to mean something else! Your answer is half right. God was preparing Peter to minister to the gentiles and God was declaring an end to calling all things unclean Both people and foods).
 

Hizikyah

Senior Member
Aug 25, 2013
11,634
372
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OK, then why would God say "Kill(unclean animals) and eat" three times, if he did not mean it? Was God lying to Peter? Should we ignore the commands of God?

You judaizers never cease to amaze me on how far you are willing to twist the clear commands of God to mean something else! Your answer is half right. God was preparing Peter to minister to the gentiles and God was declaring an end to calling all things unclean.
It was a vision, it had a meaning.

Why is there a statue in Daniyl made of 4 different metals if there is not a literal statue?

It was a vision, it had a meaning.

ACTS 10:28, "And he said to them; You yourselves are aware how it is not Lawful for a Yahdai to associate with one of another nation, or to enter his house; but Yahweh has shown me that I must not call any man common or unclean."