Attack of the Judaizers

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Elin

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Jan 19, 2013
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The Messiah taught us how to keep Sabbath.
The revelation given by the Son in these last days (Heb 1:1-2) through the NT writers teaches us that Jesus, not some day of the week, is the NT Sabbath.

The Sabbath Commandment was written with 9 others, that would be the "tenor" for our behaviour.

circumcision and "kosher" food was not part of this, so I believe Acts 15 to be the set standard for we Gentiles.
There is only one standard for both Jew and Gentile in the NT, for there is now no Jew nor Gentile, there is only the Seed of Abraham through faith in the Seed himself, Christ Jesus.

Both Jesus and Paul made clear the standard regarding food, that it is all clean (Mk 7:19; Ro 14:14, 17, 20),

and the letter to the Hebrews makes clear that Jesus is the NT Sabbath.
 

Elin

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Jan 19, 2013
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Still, taking a day off is sound advice. God did set it up for a reason.

BTW guys,
The gathering and fellowship of Believers is also commanded in the Letters of Paul. (not for our continued salvation, but because it is a good thing that God wants us to do)
This gathering (going to church) is never equated with the observing the Sabbath in the Bible.

Connecting Sabbath to a weekly gathering of Christians is a habit formed in the 1st century, but it is not a Biblical mandate. In-fact, once a week doesn't seem often enough when you read through what Paul says about gathering together.
And it is commanded in Heb 10:25.
 

Elin

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Jan 19, 2013
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So much for these things that concern believers about Judaizers and what they mingle with the gospel. We have in our own back yard professing believers who do the same with repentance and water baptism as some Judaizers do with circumcision and the Sabbath. They demand repentance and/or water baptism in addition to trusting in the cross making these things conditions to salvation. Don't say this is not true because it happens all around us and we want to tag these things as secondary and no big deal when in reality they are a form of leaven. Repentance is something that God grants the sinner through the gospel of grace so that they can turn from those things that have kept them in unbelief. If it involves personal sin the believer learns to put off the old man and all his deeds and the works of the flesh and puts on the one new man (Christ) that is created in righteousness and true holiness through mercy.

Water baptism is an individual act of faith that identifies the believer with Christ through his death, burial and resurrection. The baptism (or filling) of the Spirit happens when the sinner believes by faith in the name of Christ and the work of the blood of Christ and receives the indwelling of the Spirit that is imputed to him through faith. This is the one baptism that happens in Christ for every believer at the point of salvation. Water baptism is the outward act of an inward identification of the believer with Christ signifying the renewal of the new man and the drowning out of the old man. The believer gets baptized by water immersion because they have decided to follow Christ and identify with his name and with the cross. The baptism of the Spirit comes to the believer to reveal and guide them into truth, to be a witness within, to shed the love in the heart, to bear fruit in the believer, to continually point them to Christ, to quicken them by the word and to teach them how and what to pray.

There is leaven in both camps that we need to be concerned about as we continue to make the cross and the finished work of Christ the reference and focal point of who we have been made to be in the one new man. The cross and blood of Christ is what is being attacked or diminished when these things are being wrongfully added to complete a perfect and great salvation that comes by faith through mercy and grace.
Is baptism an option or a command?
 
Dec 2, 2013
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Whoa, that's a whole lot of pot calling the kettle black around here.

Judiazers? Is that another name for heretic, or is more of a subset of heresy?

The OP goes right to Paul as the standard "Christianity". Paul is not God. If following Christ makes you a Christian then what does following Paul make you?

Jesus' gospel, the first that he preached and continued was "Repent, for the kingdom has drawn near." Paul's was not.

Jesus said "Go, and sin no more." Martin Luther, the father of Protestant said "Go and sin boldly" and you are his children.

Jesus said that not one jot or iota will be gotten rid of gotten rid of, you say Paul said the law is no more. And yet Paul makes all kinds of rules that you do not follow, so what do you call a person who follows Paul's words instead of Christ's words, but only the ones they want to? I don't know.

Paul says you are assured salvation and you will not be judged by works.

Jesus says you will find out your salvation or damnation on judgment day and that you will be judged by all of what you say and do.

So pot, stop ripping on kettle and fix yourself.
 

john832

Senior Member
May 31, 2013
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The revelation given by the Son in these last days (Heb 1:1-2) through the NT writers teaches us that Jesus, not some day of the week, is the NT Sabbath.


There is only one standard for both Jew and Gentile in the NT, for there is now no Jew nor Gentile, there is only the Seed of Abraham through faith in the Seed himself, Christ Jesus.

Both Jesus and Paul made clear the standard regarding food, that it is all clean (Mk 7:19; Ro 14:14, 17, 20),

and the letter to the Hebrews makes clear that Jesus is the NT Sabbath.

And yet we read...

Heb 4:4 For He has spoken in a certain place of the seventh day in this way: "AND GOD RESTED ON THE SEVENTH DAY FROM ALL HIS WORKS";
Heb 4:9 There remains therefore a rest for the people of God.

And we know the word for rest here is not katapauo or katapausis like the other references to rest in this chapter, the wrod here is Sabbatismos and means a keeping of the Sabbath.
 

Elin

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Jan 19, 2013
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I have never in my lifetime met a Judaizer. I would prefer, myself, to have the world treat Saturday as they are treating Sunday. However, the world will not allow me to run it for some reason.

I have met lots of people who use the biblical truth that it is God who saves, not their works, so the conclusion is the false idea it is wrong to work. Not only do people eat food that is not kosher, but they "eat" the spiritual that it stands for, the dirty movies and dirty books things to fill their mind. The problem today is not people observing physical kosher, circumcision, Sabbath, it is that people don't even know the spiritual kosher, circumcision, or Sabbath to do the spiritual part still required.
If you know the NT, you have all you need "to do the spiritual part still required."

It is loaded with "the spiritual part still required.

And it doesn't take knowledge of OT kosher, circumcision or Sabbath "to do the spiritual part still required."
 

Elin

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Jan 19, 2013
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Is that ever right. These name callers seem to not have the capability to understand spiritual concepts. This proves a carnal mind, and that mind set demands a blind eye.
None of which alters the fact that Judaizing has been alive for 2,000 years in the church.
 

Elin

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Jan 19, 2013
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Elin said:
Non observance of a Saturday Sabbath is not immoral.
Nope, it is just a breaking of the fourth Commandment and a sin.
Not according to Hebrews, nor the NT church which assembled on the Lord's Day, the day the Lord rose.
 

Elin

Banned
Jan 19, 2013
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obedience to this poses a problem for you though...Mat 19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
So law-keeping gives eternal life. . .and Mt 19:17 contradicts Mt 22:37-40?

You might want to read them again.
 

KohenMatt

Senior Member
Jun 28, 2013
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You know, most of us Torah-keepers who don't do it for salvation's sake, actually find quite a bit of revelation, passion and insight into our relationship with God. Just as much as anyone here who choose not to follow the Torah.

But sadly, that gets overlooked more often than not, simply because we say it comes from actually following those Laws. I get just as much passion for my relationship with Jesus by celebrating Passover, as anyone else here does from celebrating Easter. I get just as much "rest" physically and spiritually by keeping a 7th day Sabbath as anyone else in here worshipping on Sunday.

Sadly, many people in here don't take the time to try and see that.
 

Elin

Banned
Jan 19, 2013
11,909
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Whoa, that's a whole lot of pot calling the kettle black around here.

Judiazers? Is that another name for heretic
, or is more of a subset of heresy?
Nope. . .it's quite simple, it's the name for those who want to subject the NT to the OT.

The OP goes right to Paul as the standard "Christianity". Paul is not God. If following Christ makes you a Christian then what does following Paul make you?

Jesus' gospel, the first that he preached and continued was "Repent, for the kingdom has drawn near." Paul's was not.

Jesus said "Go, and sin no more." Martin Luther, the father of Protestant said "Go and sin boldly" and you are his children.

Jesus said that not one jot or iota will be gotten rid of
gotten rid of, you say Paul said the law is no more. And yet Paul makes all kinds of rules that you do not follow,
And you know this, how?

so what do you call a person who follows Paul's words instead of Christ's words, but only the ones they want to? I don't know.

Paul says you are assured salvation and you will not be judged by works.

Jesus says you will find out your salvation or damnation on judgment day and that you will be judged by all of what you say and do.

So pot, stop ripping on kettle and fix yourself.
So Paul opposes Jesus, or vice versa?

Methinks thou dost not understand the NT. . .and is precisely what the OP is addressing.
 

Elin

Banned
Jan 19, 2013
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And yet we read...

Heb 4:4 For He has spoken in a certain place of the seventh day in this way: "AND GOD RESTED ON THE SEVENTH DAY FROM ALL HIS WORKS";
Heb 4:9 There remains therefore a (Sabbath) rest for the people of God.
And the verse continues with what a Sabbath rest is:

"for anyone who enters God's rest also rests from his own work, just as God did from his."


The believer ceases his efforts to gain salvation by his own works and rests in the finished work of Christ on the cross.

"Let us therefore make every effort to enter that rest, so that no one will fall by following their example of disobedience."

Let us enter salvation-rest by faith, and not follow Israel's example in the desert of disobedience in unbelief (3:7-12, 4:2-3, 10:19-22, 11:1), which exhortation to faith is the whole purpose of Hebrews.
 

Elin

Banned
Jan 19, 2013
11,909
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You know, most of us Torah-keepers who don't do it for salvation's sake, actually find quite a bit of revelation, passion and insight into our relationship with God. Just as much as anyone here who choose not to follow the Torah.
No problem. . .just don't substitute OT Torah-keeping for Mt 22:37-39, which is the NT Torah-keeping (Mt 22:40).

But sadly, that gets overlooked more often than not, simply because we say it comes from actually following those Laws. I get just as much passion for my relationship with Jesus by celebrating Passover, as anyone else here does from celebrating Easter. I get just as much "rest" physically and spiritually by keeping a 7th day Sabbath as anyone else in here worshipping on Sunday.
Sabbath rest is not about physical rest. . .it's about spiritual rest from works to save.
 

KohenMatt

Senior Member
Jun 28, 2013
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No problem. . .just don't substitute OT Torah-keeping for Mt 22:37-39, which is the NT Torah-keeping (Mt 22:40).
The 2 go hand in hand.


Sabbath rest is not about physical rest. . .it's about spiritual rest from works to save.
True, but there is a benefit physically as well.
 
Oct 31, 2011
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If you know the NT, you have all you need "to do the spiritual part still required."

It is loaded with "the spiritual part still required.

And it doesn't take knowledge of OT kosher, circumcision or Sabbath "to do the spiritual part still required."
Are you saying that we must not develop our understanding by going to the root of where it came from?

I tried that for years, never letting any of the beginnings of our faith in my mind, only allowing what was the finished work of Christ. It doesn't work! Just like reading only the last pages of a book, understanding the last pages is enhanced by knowing the first chapters.
 
B

Bazman

Guest
Good points guys!

I have seen some of the same things on here in the past months.

There are also a few on CC who accidentally say phrases that can be taken as 'legalistic' because they are trying to counter the opposite extreme, which is 'licence' to continue in sin.

Don't be too hasty in forming individual judgements, because sometimes those sounding like Judaizers are really just defending our Christian call to follow Christ, and to push on toward the goal of holiness.

We are not saved by works, but once saved we are called to go and do good work (prepared in advance for us to do).

I'm just saying that there is a balance.

Amen there is a balance as you say. Sad that people slide to one extreme or the other.
 
B

Bazman

Guest
Whoa, that's a whole lot of pot calling the kettle black around here.

Judiazers? Is that another name for heretic, or is more of a subset of heresy?

The OP goes right to Paul as the standard "Christianity". Paul is not God. If following Christ makes you a Christian then what does following Paul make you?

Jesus' gospel, the first that he preached and continued was "Repent, for the kingdom has drawn near." Paul's was not.

Jesus said "Go, and sin no more." Martin Luther, the father of Protestant said "Go and sin boldly" and you are his children.

Jesus said that not one jot or iota will be gotten rid of gotten rid of, you say Paul said the law is no more. And yet Paul makes all kinds of rules that you do not follow, so what do you call a person who follows Paul's words instead of Christ's words, but only the ones they want to? I don't know.

Paul says you are assured salvation and you will not be judged by works.

Jesus says you will find out your salvation or damnation on judgment day and that you will be judged by all of what you say and do.

So pot, stop ripping on kettle and fix yourself.
Hmm so what you are saying we should ignore a significant part of the New Testament because in your eyes Paul was a heretic. Hmmmmm... Think I will stay with the Bible!
 

john832

Senior Member
May 31, 2013
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Not according to Hebrews, nor the NT church which assembled on the Lord's Day, the day the Lord rose.
The Lord rose on Sabbath afternoon at/just before sunset. Three days and three nights.
 

john832

Senior Member
May 31, 2013
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So law-keeping gives eternal life. . .and Mt 19:17 contradicts Mt 22:37-40?

You might want to read them again.
So direct statements of Christ contradict? Now who ya gonna believe?

Law keeping does not save. Grace through faith saves. Is it possible salvation could be conditional? Or does Christ just cast this pearl before swine?
 

Hizikyah

Senior Member
Aug 25, 2013
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A "Judaizer" is one who promotes Judaism. Judaism IS NOT BASED ON SCRIPTURE AS IT MAIN BOOK, IT IS BASED ON THE TALMUD WHICH COMPLETELY CONTRADICTS SCRIPTURE, this is what Yahshua ripped the Pharisees for over and over.

Here is a sample comparing Scripture with the Pharisees/Rabbis twisted version:

The "rabbis" interpret Scripture by something called Midrashic interpretation, which ignores language and ignores context. They say Scripture is a divne code and only the rabbis have the knowledge to decipher that divine code. Here is an ACTUAL example of Midrashic interpretation used by the rabbis:

Deuteronomy 30:11-13, "For this Law which I command you this day is not hidden from you, nor is it beyond your reach. It is not up in heaven, so that you have to ask; Who will ascend up into heaven for us, and bring it to us, so that we may hear it and then do it? Nor is it beyond the sea, so that you have to ask; Who will cross the sea, and bring it to us, so that we may hear it and then do it?"

After Midrashic interpretation is applied, they come out with : "‘It is not in heaven.’4 What did he mean by this? — Said R. Jeremiah: That the Torah had already been given at Mount Sinai; we pay no attention to a Heavenly Voice" (Talmud, Baba Metzia 59b)


So now do we understand why the Messiah said things like this?

Mattithyah 15:2-3, "Why do Your disciples transgress the traditions of the elders? For they do not wash their hands when they eat. But He answered, and said to them: And why do you transgress the Laws of Yahweh by your traditions?"

Now that we have established that, the OP must think the Messiah is a "judaizer?"

Messiah said:

Mattithyah 5:19, "Whosoever, therefore, will break one of the least of these Laws, and will teach men so, he will be called the least in the Kingdom of Yahweh; but whosoever will do and teach them, the same will be called great in the Kingdom of Yahweh."

Mattithyah 22:37-40, "Yahshua said to him: You must love Yahweh your Father with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your might. This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets."

Yahchanan 14:15, "If you love Me, keep My commandments."

Mattithyah 5:18, "For truly I say to you; Unless heaven and earth passes away, one yodh--the smallest of the letters--will in no way pass from the Law, until all things are perfected."

Luke 16:17, "But it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one yodh of the Law to fail."

Revelation 22:12-15, "And behold, I come quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give every man according as his work will be. I am the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End. Blessed are those who keep His Laws, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. For outside are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and worshipers of gods and everyone who professes to love, yet practices falsehood."

Yahchanan 8:31, "...If you continue in My doctrine, then you are truly My disciples."

Isayah 42:21, "Yahweh is well-pleased, for His righteousness' sake, to magnify the Law, and make it honorable"

Mattithyah 5:20-30, ""For I say to you: Unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will certainly not enter into the Kingdom of Yahweh. You have heard that it was said by the people of ancient times: You shall not murder, and whoever murders will be in danger of the judgment; But I say to you: Whoever is angry with his brother will be in danger of the judgment! Again, anyone who says; Raca! insulting your brother, will be in danger of the Sanhedrin, but whoever says: Nabel! desiring them to fall away, will be in danger of the fire of Gehenna. Therefore, if you are offering your gift at the altar, and there you remember that your brother has something against you; Leave your gift there before the altar, and go first and be reconciled with your brother; then come and offer your gift. Settle a controversy with your accuser quickly, before he gets you into court; or your adversary may deliver you to the judge, the judge deliver you to the officer, and you be put into prison. Truly I say to you: You will never come out of there until you have paid the last penny. You have heard that it was said by the people of ancient times: You shall not commit adultery; But I say to you: Whoever looks on a woman with lust for her, has already committed adultery with her in his heart. So if your right eye causes you to offend; sin, gouge it out and throw it from you! For it is better for you that one of your members perish, than for the whole body to be cast into Gehenna. Or if your right hand causes you to offend, cut it off and throw it from you! For it is better for you that one of your members perish, than for the whole body to be cast into Gehenna."

And the ultimate quote from the Messiah that puts the OP in opposition to THE MESSIAH:

Mattithyah 7:23, "But then I will declare to them; I never knew you. Get away from Me, you who practice iniquity."

iniquity is:#0458 ἀνομία anomia {an-om-ee'-ah} from G0459

Greek Word Study (Transliteration-Pronunciation Etymology & Grammar)
1) the condition of without law
1a) because ignorant of it
1b) because of violating it
2) contempt and violation of law, iniquity, wickedness


P.S., "Paul" agrees:

Romans 3:31, "Are we then doing away with the Law through the faith? By no means! Rather, we establish the Law!"

the word Law is: 3551. nomos
nomos: that which is assigned, hence usage, law
Original Word: νόμος, ου, ὁ
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: nomos
Phonetic Spelling: (nom'-os)
Short Definition: a law, the Mosaic Law
Definition: usage, custom, law; in NT: of law in general, plur: of divine laws; of a force or influence impelling to action; of the Mosaic law; meton: of the books which contain the law, the Pentateuch, the Old Testament scriptures in general.

Only the blind slaves to modern twisting of Paul's writings keep one in the state of Lawlessness.