Baptism and holy spirit

[Noose]

The work he was performing was preaching the gospel .

There is no greater work than fulfilling the gospel . The greater work was in respect to bringing the gospel... raising the spiritualty dead to new life .The Son of man in respect to his ministry seemed to effect approx. five hundred during the three year course. Peter spoke once and three thousand heard the gospel .It is the greater work. It was not the sky is the limit just beleive.

Of course not, works means works. Jesus promised those who believe would do GREATER works. If we substitute works with preaching the gospel it would sound something like this:

"Whoever believes in me will also preach the gospel like i do. He will even preach better gospel/ He will preach the gospel even better/ because i'm going to the Father."
And the natural question comes: what is a better gospel than the one of Jesus or what is preach the gospel better than Jesus did?

 

[garee]

Jesus is God, not that He didn't know the will of God, Jesus did all these things so that we learn from His actions/flesh. Otherwise, i agree that the will of God is faith in us.

God is not a man as us. Jesus walked by faith performing the will of the father as the kind of food the disciples knew not of. Free will to a believer is to do the will of our father not seen

John 4:34 Jesus saith unto them, My meat is to do the will of him that sent me, and to finish his work.

Faith is a work .It cannot be separate from work just as the body cannot separated from the Spirit.

For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also James 2:26

 

[notuptome]

LOL again do not "insult me with name it and claim it ". I suffer each day YET ! I ask God to heal people who ask for prayer and i have seen God heal them.
"Many are the affliction of the righteous, And the Lord deliver him out of them all “



My God has delivered me and When that day comes where I am to lay down this Body I will as the Lord ordain for me to do. And it is my hope that I will bless His name when I do.

Again no insult intended.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[CS1]

My friend, don't make me laugh at you coz i'm feeling sleepy.

Faith was then, now it is the will of God.
Jesus said, when you pray, say this:
Our father,
Who at in Heaven,
Hallowed be thy name,
Thy kingdom come,
Thy WILL be done,....

Jesus prayed and said: Father, if it be your will, let this cap pass from me....
When He confirmed that He will be crucified, he told Peter, "...Shall I not drink” the cup the Father has given Me? "
Do you really think Jesus lacked faith?

If i come at your hospital bed, with or without faith, i'd ask for the will of the Father.

No it's ok you do not even need to come thank you anyway. The Will of the Father will be done But He like me to ask HIM anyway . Kind like Jesus not needing to pray because He knew the answer already but yet HE did pray . And He is our exmaple He prayed , he prayed for people too. So i'm in very good company

 

[CS1]

I'm talking about raising of the dead before the resurrection of the saints or every dead during judgement day.
If the same spirit enables the ability to raise the dead (like the apostles) is the same that gave tongues to them then, then the 'spirit' that gives the tongues today should be able to give the ability to raise the dead today. If not, at least give me an explanation (scriptural) of what you think transpired so that we have a huge gap from then to now.

let me ask you this can man bring back a person from the dead ? Please answer

 

[CS1]

John 14: 12Truly, truly, I tell you,whoever believes in Me will also do the works that Iam doing. He will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father.

Amongst the works that Jesus did were raising the dead. the apostles believed and did even greater things as per that promise. My question is, why are believers today not being led as per the promise to do all those things, they seem to be led only in one thing- speaking incomprehensible language.

I won't get tired saying it, it is fake. And i know why all these signs ceased, we are in the end times and the antichrist also comes with a bag full of fake signs and wonders. God can not cause confusion that a genuine sign here and fake sign there and no one really knows what to believe.

This is a real scenario during judgement day:
Matt 7:21“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’23Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’

Who are these people? these were duped by the antichrist, they truly believed that the signs were from God.
NO signs from God, this is what is required of God during these end times:

Rev 14: 12This calls for patient endurance on the part of the people of God who keep his commands and remain faithful to Jesus.

Patience and endurance.

LOL so a person who gets saved and filled with the Holy Spirit and ask God for the gifts of the Spirit listed in 1cor 12 as Instructed to , will end up getting a demon or fake gift from the devil . really?

I cannot even take you serious right now. I have never heard anything so foolish before in my life , that IF you get saved & filled with the Holy Spirit and ask for a gift of the Holy Spirit you will get a fake sign & wonder from the devil.


Be careful out there People!!! After you get saved some think you will be over taken by the devil and made to speak in tongues . Standby People some here have just called Jesus a lair and He did not mean what
HE said in Luke 11:13

So if you sinful people know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him."

Or in John chapter 14 and 16 .

If your saved, some here think you will get a devil when asking God for HIS gifts .

 

[Ralph-]

Note: it is not " Not everyone who used to say Lord Lord....", It is "Not everyone who says Lord Lord..."

I never said it did say that.

What it does say can mean they were either never saved to begin with, and that's why they don't having a mature knowing relationship with God, or it can mean they used to be saved but before they came to a mature knowing relationship with God they fell away, like soil #2 in the Parable of the Sower (and what was happening to the Galatians-Galatians 4:9).

Either way, the people Jesus spoke of are lost. It doesn't matter if they never believed, or used to believe but stopped. They are lost. That is the point that 'once saved always saved' causes people to miss. Instead, they think settling the matter of whether or not these lost people were ever saved to begin with is the important point of the passage and they don't give the time of day to the point Jesus was actually addressing--their lawlessness.

These are not people who fell away, how many people do you know that have fallen away but do miracles in the name of the Lord/ heal in the name of the Lord/ prophesy in the name of the Lord???

I don't have to answer an argument I never made.

What I'm saying is these people at one time performed signs and miracles but were later condemned because of their lawlessness. I don't know if they were ever really saved or not. The passage doesn't say that. And I don't know if the signs and miracles were genuine or not. It doesn't say that either. All we are sure is these people are not going to be saved when Jesus returns. That's what you need to pay attention to and stop majoring in minors.

I have said before:

2 Thess 2:9The coming of the lawless one will be accompanied by the working of Satan, with every kind of power, sign, and false wonder,

Dan 8:25Through his craftand by his hand, he will cause deceit to prosper,and in his own mind he will make himself great. In a time of peace he will destroy many, and he will even stand against the Prince of princes. Yet he will be broken off, but not by human hands.

Rev 13:11Then I saw a second beast, coming out of the earth. It had two horns like a lamb, but it spoke like a dragon. 12It exercised all the authority of the first beast on its behalf, and made the earth and its inhabitants worship the first beast, whose fatal wound had been healed. 13And it performed great signs, even causing fire to come down from heaven to the earth in full view of the people. 14Because of the signs it was given power to perform on behalf of the first beast, it deceived the inhabitants of the earth

Jesus said the elect can not be deceived by this, and, he said he does not give fake satanic gifts to those who ask him for the Holy Spirit. The elect (believers) do not receive the gift of satanic tongues. Nor are they deceived by them.

 

[garee]

Of course not, works means works. Jesus promised those who believe would do GREATER works. If we substitute works with preaching the gospel it would sound something like this:

The commandment is to go out and preach the gospel . if the work is not done it does not get preached.

"Whoever believes in me will also preach the gospel like i do. He will even preach better gospel/ He will preach the gospel even better/ because i'm going to the Father."
And the natural question comes: what is a better gospel than the one of Jesus or what is preach the gospel better than Jesus did?

Its not a better gospel just better results .The Son of man was limited because of His flesh.When the Spirit of Christ returned to the Father, Peter preached once and three thousand were saved by the Spirit of Christ .It is the better works. Nothing is better than the gospel . It raises the spiritually dead as something represented in a parable using the literally dead that is used represent the unseen work.

He used Peter to fulfil his promise. If he did not go the comforter would not come

Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. John 16

 

[Noose]

No it's ok you do not even need to come thank you anyway. The Will of the Father will be done But He like me to ask HIM anyway . Kind like Jesus not needing to pray because He knew the answer already but yet HE did pray . And He is our exmaple He prayed , he prayed for people too. So i'm in very good company

True, Jesus is our example yet we do not no the answer when we pray. That's why when we pray , we say "let not my will but your will...",
It means the will of the Father is going to be done anyway despite our expectations and the person who does this prayer is open to any outcome.

It also means that the gifts can not operate in us the way it operated in the disciples. If a faith healer says "let not my will but your will be done.." when praying for a sick person, what difference does it make when a normal person like you or me say the same to the sick person?

The HS today is to give us understanding and also to comfort us because we go through a lot of agony. I'm not saying He doesn't heal, He does but on a private level, i have been healed without stepping a foot in a hospital and without anyone laying their hands on me- just like that.

The reason the disciples did so many miracles and the signs were so rampant was that the gospel be preached to all nations - it helped the people believe. Now that the gospel has been preached, there's no reason for someone to call themselves faith healers and say they have the gift of healing/ there;s no prophesy either- all has been done, only patience and perseverance and understanding is what is asked of us.

 

[Noose]

let me ask you this can man bring back a person from the dead ? Please answer

Of course NO, big NO.

 

[Noose]

LOL so a person who gets saved and filled with the Holy Spirit and ask God for the gifts of the Spirit listed in 1cor 12 as Instructed to , will end up getting a demon or fake gift from the devil . really?

I cannot even take you serious right now. I have never heard anything so foolish before in my life , that IF you get saved & filled with the Holy Spirit and ask for a gift of the Holy Spirit you will get a fake sign & wonder from the devil.


Be careful out there People!!! After you get saved some think you will be over taken by the devil and made to speak in tongues . Standby People some here have just called Jesus a lair and He did not mean what
HE said in Luke 11:13

So if you sinful people know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him."

Or in John chapter 14 and 16 .

If your saved, some here think you will get a devil when asking God for HIS gifts .

People don't ask for gifts, a gift is a gift because it is just given and never asked for. The people who asks for gifts will most probably get and evil one and why is it that majority of the people today only ask for the gift of speaking in a language no one understands?
I know why, they are all fake.

 

[Noose]

I never said it did say that.

What it does say can mean they were either never saved to begin with, and that's why they don't having a mature knowing relationship with God, or it can mean they used to be saved but before they came to a mature knowing relationship with God they fell away, like soil #2 in the Parable of the Sower (and what was happening to the Galatians-Galatians 4:9).

Either way, the people Jesus spoke of are lost. It doesn't matter if they never believed, or used to believe but stopped. They are lost. That is the point that 'once saved always saved' causes people to miss. Instead, they think settling the matter of whether or not these lost people were ever saved to begin with is the important point of the passage and they don't give the time of day to the point Jesus was actually addressing--their lawlessness.




I don't have to answer an argument I never made.

What I'm saying is these people at one time performed signs and miracles but were later condemned because of their lawlessness. I don't know if they were ever really saved or not. The passage doesn't say that. And I don't know if the signs and miracles were genuine or not. It doesn't say that either. All we are sure is these people are not going to be saved when Jesus returns. That's what you need to pay attention to and stop majoring in minors.



Jesus said the elect can not be deceived by this, and, he said he does not give fake satanic gifts to those who ask him for the Holy Spirit. The elect (believers) do not receive the gift of satanic tongues. Nor are they deceived by them.

Again, you missed it.

Jesus said He never never never knew them meaning they were never a part of the kingdom at any given moment, yet they performed miracles/drove out demons/healed all in the name of Christ. Of course the signs were not genuine but these people were so much into the deception that they are doing it for God.

The antichrist comes positioning himself as God, and he also gives people the power to perform such signs (but fake ones). These people fell for it, they are doing these things in the name of Jesus and they think they get the power from Jesus. It is exactly what is happening today- speaking in tongues/healing/raising the dead, all fake yet you have believed that they are genuine.
I have given reason why the tongues today are fake i have even lost count.

This is why they petition God by saying," didn't we do miracles in your name..". They genuinely thought it was all from God. You need to realize the times we are in.

 

[Noose]

The commandment is to go out and preach the gospel . if the work is not done it does not get preached.



Its not a better gospel just better results .The Son of man was limited because of His flesh.When the Spirit of Christ returned to the Father, Peter preached once and three thousand were saved by the Spirit of Christ .It is the better works. Nothing is better than the gospel . It raises the spiritually dead as something represented in a parable using the literally dead that is used represent the unseen work.

He used Peter to fulfil his promise. If he did not go the comforter would not come

Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. John 16

Better results?!!
Truly truly i tell you, there's no such thing as better results, everything that happened was as per the will of God and what do you mean Peter was not limited in flesh?

 

[Ralph-]

Jesus said He never never never knew them meaning they were never a part of the kingdom at any given moment

Or, Jesus never knew them in a reciprocal 'knowing', mature relationship, like 2nd type of soil believers, like the Galatian church--people who have believed but because they did not mature into a deep knowing relationship with Christ were able to fall away into lawlessness and so will not be saved when Jesus comes back. Any work of ministry they did will be meaningless.

I have given reason why the tongues today are fake i have even lost count.

What you're not getting is not all tongues are fake.

When a genuinely saved Christian receives the gift of tongues they are talking in the real gift of tongues from God because God doesn't give his children a snake or a scorpion when they ask for the Holy Spirit.

11“Which of you fathers, if your son asks forf a fish, will give him a snake instead? 12Or if he asks for an egg, will give him a scorpion? 13If you then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him! (not a snake, not a scorpion)”-Luke 11:11-13

They genuinely thought it was all from God. You need to realize the times we are in.

And you need to realize that only "those who are perishing" can be deceived by satanic signs and wonders:

"9The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with how Satan works. He will use all sorts of displays of power through signs and wonders that serve the lie, 10and all the ways that wickedness deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. "-2 Thessalonians 2:9-10

 

[Ralph-]

People don't ask for gifts...

"29Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles? 30Do all have gifts of healing? Do all speak in tonguesd ? Do all interpret? 31Now eagerly desire the greater gifts."-1 Corinthians 12:29-30

The implication here is you can ask for and receive a gift of the Spirit.

 

[Noose]

"29Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles? 30Do all have gifts of healing? Do all speak in tonguesd ? Do all interpret? 31Now eagerly desire the greater gifts."-1 Corinthians 12:29-30

The implication here is you can ask for and receive a gift of the Spirit.

gift
ɡɪft/
noun

1. 1.
   a thing given willingly to someone without payment; a present.
   "wedding gifts"
   synonymsresent, donation, offering, contribution, handout, presentation, bestowal, largesse, alms, charity, bonus, award, premium, bounty, boon, favour, bequest, legacy, inheritance, settlement, subsidy, grant, endowment, benefaction; More

If anyone asks for something and is given to them it is no longer a gift.

 

[Ralph-]

gift
ɡɪft/
noun

1. 1.
   a thing given willingly to someone without payment; a present.
   "wedding gifts"
   synonymsresent, donation, offering, contribution, handout, presentation, bestowal, largesse, alms, charity, bonus, award, premium, bounty, boon, favour, bequest, legacy, inheritance, settlement, subsidy, grant, endowment, benefaction; More

If anyone asks for something and is given to them it is no longer a gift.

I don't see that in the definition of gift you posted. Where does it say a gift is not asked for?

Several things in the list are examples of asking for gifts--donations, offerings, charity, settlements, subsidies, grants.

Did you not ask for the gift of salvation?

 

[Noose]

Or, Jesus never knew them in a reciprocal 'knowing', mature relationship, like 2nd type of soil believers, like the Galatian church--people who have believed but because they did not mature into a deep knowing relationship with Christ were able to fall away into lawlessness and so will not be saved when Jesus comes back. Any work of ministry they did will be meaningless.




What you're not getting is not all tongues are fake.

When a genuinely saved Christian receives the gift of tongues they are talking in the real gift of tongues from God because God doesn't give his children a snake or a scorpion when they ask for the Holy Spirit.

11“Which of you fathers, if your son asks forf a fish, will give him a snake instead? 12Or if he asks for an egg, will give him a scorpion? 13If you then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him! (not a snake, not a scorpion)”-Luke 11:11-13



And you need to realize that only "those who are perishing" can be deceived by satanic signs and wonders:

"9The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with how Satan works. He will use all sorts of displays of power through signs and wonders that serve the lie, 10and all the ways that wickedness deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. "-2 Thessalonians 2:9-10

I still don't get you, how many people do you know that have not matured in Christ that can drive out demons/ heal/ do miracles all in the name of Christ?
No matter how much you twist and turn, these people represent one group and that is the church today. What do you understand by this:

"The narrow road that leads to life, the wider road leads to destruction.."
"The first shall be the last and last shall be the first.."

And, people don't ask for gifts, a gift is something given willingly- so you are using a wrong verse to legitimize an 'illegality'.

Something you need to learn about the son asking the Father, it is way complicated than you think:

John 16:23 In that day you will no longer ask Me anything. Truly, truly, I tell you, whatever you ask the Father in My name, He will give you. 24 Until now you have not asked for anything in My name. Ask and you will receive, so that your joy may be complete

Do you know why up to that point (just before Jesus' ascension), the disciples had not asked 'n the name of Jesus'? Not that they had asked anything, thye had asked but do you why it would not have been counted as asking in the name of Jesus?

 

[Noose]

I don't see that in the definition of gift you posted. Where does it say a gift is not asked for?

Several things in the list are examples of asking for gifts--donations, offerings, charity, settlements, subsidies, grants.

Did you not ask for the gift of salvation?

Fourth word from the left, first sentence- willingly.

If you asked me for something, i'll give it to you because you asked, i'm not giving you out of my will.

 

[Ralph-]

Fourth word from the left, first sentence- willingly.

If you asked me for something, i'll give it to you because you asked, i'm not giving you out of my will.

My Bible says salvation and eternal life and the Holy Spirit are gifts, but you are saying if a person asks for them they are not gifts. And worse, that God is not giving them willingly to the person who asks for them.