Baptism Essential to Salvation

SeaBass · Jul 15, 2014

A recap of posts made by you and me:

eternally-gratfull: The problem is we have people today who are no better than the jews, who claimed we needed physical circumcision by men to be saved, only they replace circumcision with baptism.....I said water baptism is the NT form of the jews claiming physical circumcision.

Seabass: Circumcision is not an OT type of NT water baptism.

eternally-gratfull: Yes it is. Paul said as much in his letter to the collossians.

GOd did not come to earth and baptize me in water. A local preacher baptized me in water and when he baptized me in water God then did His work of cutting away the sins of the flesh.

eternally-gratefull · Jul 15, 2014

SeaBass said:

God came to earth so he could send you the HS to baptize you into his death, burial, body and himself. and one day soon baptize you into his ressurection.

your pastor has no power to cleanse you and make you clean, nor does he have any power to baptize you into Christ.

The HS does this, your replacing the work of the HS with the work of a sinner.

As I proved, No one was saved by being circumcized. No one will be saved by being baptized in water. They are types or symbols of what God does for us. plain and simple.

mailmandan · Jul 15, 2014

SeaBass said:

Jesus called all to repent or perish (Luke 13:3). For some people though, prior to coming to the end result of repentance in receiving salvation (faith in Christ for salvation), they must change their minds about other specific things in order to get there. Repentance, metanoia, focuses on changing one's mind about his previous concept of God (as in Acts 17:30) and disbelief in God or false beliefs (polytheism and idolatry) about God (see 1 Thessalonians 1:9). On the other hand, belief/faith in Christ, focuses on the new direction that change about God must ultimately take, namely, trusting exclusively in Jesus Christ for salvation. Repentance is necessary for salvation, because if we don't change our mind about our sinful position and need for Christ to save us and any form of self-trust in human works, religious tradition, etc. then we won't believe the gospel and be saved (Romans 1:16). Prior to repentance unto life (Acts 11:17,18) there is no saving belief.

An unbelieving person once convinced that God exists and that all have sinned and come short of the glory of God (Romans 3:23) and that the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord (Romans 6:23) can now repent and believe the gospel. An atheist must first believe in the existence of Christ "mental assent belief" (which in of itself is not enough to save) before they can repent and believe the gospel by trusting exclusively in Christ's finished work of redemption for salvation.

This kind of belief is not enough to save. These Jews must change their minds and trust in Jesus Christ alone for salvation.

Again, they needed to repent of their sinful position and need for Christ to save them and and any form of self-trust in human works, religious tradition, etc. followed by trusting exclusively in Christ for salvation.

Amen! See Romans 3:24-26.

No, actually repentance remits sins, not baptism. In Acts 2:38, "for the remission of sins" does not refer back to both clauses, "you all repent" and "each one of you be baptized," but refers only to the first. Peter is saying "repent unto the remission of your sins," the same as in Acts 3:19. The clause "each one of you be baptized" is parenthetical.

In Acts 2:38, repentance is the means of receiving forgiveness and baptism is (in reference to) true repentance and forgiveness.

Acts 3:19 - Repent therefore and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, so that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord. *What happened to baptism?

Acts 10:43-47 - To Him all the prophets witness that, through His name, whoever believes in Him will receive remission of sins. While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who heard the word. And those of the circumcision who believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also. For they heard them speak with tongues and magnify God. Then Peter answered, "Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?" *What happened to baptism in verse 43?

Acts 11:17 - If therefore God gave them the same gift as He gave us when we believed on the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I that I could withstand God?" When they heard these things they became silent; and they glorified God, saying, "Then God has also granted to the Gentiles repentance unto life. *What happened to baptism?

Acts 15:8,9 - So God, who knows the heart, acknowledged them by giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He did to us, and made no distinction between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith. *What happened to baptism?

Faith in Jesus Christ "implied in genuine repentance" (rather than water baptism) brings the remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit (Acts 2:38; 3:19; 10:43-47; 11:17,18; 15:8,9). *Perfect Harmony*

SeaBass · Jul 15, 2014

eternally-gratefull said:

The minister that baptized never claimed to have any power to cleanse me. All he did was administer water baptism to me (as Phillip did with the eunuch) and God promised to remit the sins of those that are water baptized in the name of Christ.

Those under the OT law would be lost for not being circumcised as those are lost under the NT for not being baptized.

secularhermit · Jul 15, 2014

Do you know one thing I like from JESUS?

He told a thief, who repented on a side of His cross: "Luk_23:43 Then Jesus said to him, "I promise you, today you will be with me in paradise." "

It´s probable that thief never baptized, never ate the Lord´s supper (though many churches take it at BREAKFAST time).

that´s why I love Jesus!

He loves not man-made lies.

SeaBass · Jul 15, 2014

mailmandan said:

This does not explain how/why an atheist would repent. An atheist does not even believe in the existence of God, does not believe in a heaven of hell, therefore does not think he is lost and needs to repent and be saved. The bible can command repentance all it wants to, but as long as an atheist does not believe it he will never repent.

mailmandan said:

Here you say "An unbelieving person once convinced that God exists...can now repent

So now you are saying one must first believe in God before they can repent. But even though one believes God exists does not mean he will repent. The Jews certainly believed God exists but they did not see themselves as being lost, did not see Jesus as the Messiah therefore would not repent even though they believed God exists.

mailmandan said:

But a person will never repent until they first believe the gospel of Christ.

mailmandan said:

The Jews would never repent until they first believed the Jesus was the Messiah. Once they accepted Him as the Messiah then they could repent.

mailmandan said:

Peter did not say repent for the remission of sins, but said be baptized for the remission of sins.

Remission of sins is equivalent to being saved, so:

Acts 2:38----------baptized>>>>>>>>remission of sins
1 Pet 3:21---------baptism>>>>>>>>>saves

Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins,

The order of the verse, that cannot be changed or altered:
repentance comes BEFORE baptism and baptism comes BEFORE remission of sins.

You're simply trying to rewrite the verse to make it fit your bias instead of taking as it is.

The singular or plural does not change or alter the verse either. All of you repent and let each one of you be baptized for remission of sins. The conjunction "and" ties repentance to baptism making them inseparable and making them both equally essential to salvation. The preposition eis "for" gives the purpose for baptism which is remission of sins.

No verse say repentance puts one into the death of Christ where one then has access to His shed blood. Yet Rom 6:4 says we are buried with him by baptism into death, NOT repented into His death. Water baptism is symbolic of Christ's death burial and resurrection, NOT repentance. So one is NOT buried in repentance, NOT raised up from repentance to walk in newness of life.

Col 2:11,12 says the body of sin is cut away by God when one is buried in baptism, NOT when one repents.

Being in Christ is the same as being saved and Gal 3:27 says baptized into Christ, NOT repented into Christ.

Being in the body is equivalent to being saved and 1 Cor 12;13 says baptized into one body NOT repented into one body.

Acts 22:16 Saul was commanded to arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.
Saul was NOT told to wash away thy sins by repenting.

Acts 2:38---------repent+++++++++++be baptized>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>.for remission of sins
Acts 3:19---------repent+++++++++++be converted>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>sins blotted out.

Since there is just one way to be saved then both verses must say the same thing. One has not been converted, has not accepted the gospel until he has been baptized, Acts 2;41.

Comparing Acts 2:42 with 44 one can see that the verb "believed" in verse 44 includes being baptized in of verse 41. So when Peter commanded the Gentiles to believe that belief included baptism as he commanded them to be water baptized. The command to be water baptized here and in Acts 2:38 make water baptism essential to salvation if for no other reason. Also nothing in Acts 10 or 11 changes the order of verses like Acts 2:38 or Mk 16:16 which both have the order of baptism BEFORE salvation, not after.

Eph 2:8--------faith>>>>>>>>>>>saves
1Pet3:21------baptism>>>>>>>>>saves

Since there is just one way to be saved then NT faith includes baptism. Peter never said in Acts 15 the Gentiles were saved by faith only. He commanded them to be water baptized for a saving faith includes baptism and is dead without it.

SeaBass · Jul 15, 2014

secularhermit said:

--The thief lived and died under the OT law and therefore is not an example of NT salvation for us.

--for all we know the thief may very have been baptized by John, Mk 1:4,5

notuptome · Jul 15, 2014

SeaBass said:

This is a completely false statement. OT or NT men were and are saved by grace and not works. Believing Gods word was accounted as righteousness not circumcision or baptism. The law, circumcision, could not save and water baptism cannot wash away sins. Only the blood of Christ is sufficient to atone for sin. Atonement is received by grace through faith.

There is a way that seemeth right unto men but the end thereof is destruction.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

SeaBass · Jul 15, 2014

notuptome said:

So men can disobey God and yet still be saved while they remain in their disobedience/sin/unrighteousness?

Apostol2013 · Jul 15, 2014

secularhermit said:

Man made lies folks havent been reading their bibles " but seriously if one rejects baptism or any God mandated commandments then there is danger or even spiritual death even in living to the flesh is being dead while living but the thief did not have time to be baptized and that is grace until one comes to a full understanding of the trutj and doeth not theren there remains no remission for sin ,or he that knoweth to do good and doeth not to him it is sin we are mandated to do what the lord ask of us for Hos commandments are not griveous they are just , to them that be ignorant continue to be ignorant to them that are diligent rejoice for your labor is not in vain but rejoice in me saith God Almighty rejoice in me thee righteous children in all good works being beautifully furnished .

notuptome · Jul 15, 2014

SeaBass said:

The proper question is will God forgive men even though they disobey?

Even while we were yet sinners Christ died for us. Christ loved us even when we did not love Him.

It is quite clear that you do not understand and possibly do not seek grace. The only hope of mankind is the grace of God. If man received what he is due all would perish.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

posthuman · Jul 15, 2014

a preacher didn't save me.

baptism didn't save me.

good works didn't save me.

studying scripture didn't save me.

repentance didn't save me.

taking communion didn't save me.

prayer didn't save me.

evangelizing didn't save me.

going to church didn't save me.

observing a sabbath day didn't save me.

fasting didn't save me.

debating theology didn't save me.

reciting a rosary prayer didn't save me.

kneeling at an altar didn't save me.

separating myself from wickedness didn't save me.

Jesus, the essence of God made flesh, who came and gave Himself to be crucified for my sin, and rose again the third day -

JESUS saved me.

secularhermit · Jul 15, 2014

SeaBass said:

Oh, yes, sir!

He died under the same GOD and the same mistake He made making a law that served for nothing, except telling us we all are sinners... I have heard that excuse/argument and, as you have read the Bible (the OT) I have seem HIS MERCY FROM THE BEGINNING.

Not all were baptized! Yet many who did, left Him...

Joh 6:65 And he said, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father."
Joh 6:66 After this many of his disciples turned back and no longer walked with him.
Joh 6:67 So Jesus said to the Twelve, "Do you want to go away as well?"

Yes! He could have been another Judas! Why not?

Here it is what Jesus said:

Mar 13:13 And you will be hated by all for my name's sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved.

Mat 24:13 But the one who endures to the end will be saved.

I myself was baptized acording to the "formulae" of the father, The son and the HS... Later on, the way Acts taught and, but I really need is GOD´S SEAL:

Joh 1:33 I myself did not know him, but he who sent me to baptize with water said to me, 'He on whom you see the Spirit descend and remain, this is he who baptizes with the Holy Spirit.'

Act 11:16 And I remembered the word of the Lord, how he said, 'John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.'

SeaBass · Jul 15, 2014

secularhermit said:

1) Heb 9:16,17 shows that Christ's NT would not take effect until some time AFTER He died, so the thief was not under the NT and therefore was not accountable the the NT's Acts 2:38 as we today who live AFTER it are accountable to it.

2) there is no proof that the thief was NEVER water baptized so that argument fails here also.

3) Mt 9:6, while Jesus was ON EARTH He had the power/authority to forgive sins of those He thought was deserving as this thief. Yet Christ left earth some 2,000 years ago and therefore is NOT on earth today forgiving sins as He did with the thief, so no one can claim they are saved the same way as the thief. Also, when Christ left earth some 2,000 years ago, He left behind His word, the gospel as His authority on earth and that gospel word teaches one must be baptized to be saved, Mk 16:16.

Apostol2013 · Jul 15, 2014

2 Corinthians 11

1 Would to God you could bear with me a little in my folly: and indeed bear with me.

2 For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.

3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtlety, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.

4 For if he that comes preaches another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if you receive another spirit, which you have not received, or another gospel, which you have not accepted, you might well bear with him.

Apostol2013 · Jul 15, 2014

10 And with all delusion of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

13 But we are bound to give thanks always to God for you, brothers beloved of the Lord, because God has from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

15 Therefore, brothers, stand fast, and hold the traditions which you have been taught, whether by word, or our letter.

Apostol2013 · Jul 15, 2014

Gal 1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than that which we have preached to you, let him be accursed. View more

Gal 1:9 As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel to you than that you have received, let him be accursed.

posthuman · Jul 15, 2014

SeaBass said:

Behold, the LORD'S hand is not shortened,
that it cannot save;
neither his ear heavy, that it cannot hear.

(Isaiah 59:1)

SeaBass · Jul 15, 2014

mailmandan said:

Beating on this false horse some more:

1) Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Note that the KJV and other versions omit the second pronoun "your". The KJV does NOT say "for the remission of YOUR sins".

If the KJV and other versions and the manuscripts they are based upon are the accurate ones, then the second plural "your" is not in the verse and you have no argument at all. So your argument is "iffy' at best.

2) as already noted, "repent" is connected to "baptized" with the conjunction "and" and this conjunction does not allow you to separate the two as you so badly want to. So if it can be argued one can have sins remitted without baptism, then one can argue one can have sins remitted without repenting.

3) Then Peter said unto them The pronoun "them" is 3rd person plural. Peter is talking to the same group "them" even if he refers to them is the singular or plural. The same "them" that must repent is the same "them" that must be baptized. So all Peter said, he said the "them". Peter did not tell one group[them] to repent and a completely different group[them] to be baptized.

4) and be baptized every one (singular) of you (plural) The antecedent of this plural pronoun "you" is the singular "baptized every one". Meaning even though Peter gave the command to "be baptized each one of you" in the singular, the plural "you" shows this command is being given to all present though addressed singularly. So this "you" that is commanded to be baptized is just as plural as "repent" and "your" (assuming "your" is in the original)

eternally-gratefull · Jul 15, 2014

SeaBass said:

God never promised any such thing.

If you were saved you were washed clean from your sins, as scripture says, made whiter than snow. that is what baptism does.

Thanks for admitting your pastor could not do this. No if you would just let God do that for you. You would be secure in Christ.

Na, they would not be. they would be lost for not having faith. Not because they did not do something.

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