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Abraham didn't come to God in (Genesis 18:16-33)with information God lacked. Abraham didn't tell God information that He didn't already know. In fact, God knew that Sodom would have fewer than ten righteous people, but Abraham did not. God's mind doesn't change because it doesn't need to change. God knows everything, and He knows the end from the beginning. God does not have or need a plan B because there are no flaws in His Plan A. God's plan (A) for men's redemption has always been by grace through faith. The thief exercised that faith and it was counted to him for righteousness apart from baptism.
And yes, I do hold God to His word, my eternal security relies on it, its all I or you have, not by my standard but by His standard which is His Word.
(2 Peter 1:19-21) We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day of dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:
And yes, I do hold God to His word, my eternal security relies on it, its all I or you have, not by my standard but by His standard which is His Word.
(2 Peter 1:19-21) We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day of dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:
one or two-
when a man takes takes a wife; is that one or two?
How many Gods are there? One, two or three? Matt 1: 23; Acts 5: 3, 4; Eph 4: 6
Unless one is born of WATER and SPIRIT, he cannot enter the kingdom. John 3: 5
How many births is that? One or two?
Jesus authorized the baptism in water by His disciples, When one is baptized in water, Jesus gives that individual the gift of the Holy Spirit, baptizing him with the Spirit. Any connection between the two or are they just one baptism?
God bless
when a man takes takes a wife; is that one or two?
How many Gods are there? One, two or three? Matt 1: 23; Acts 5: 3, 4; Eph 4: 6
Unless one is born of WATER and SPIRIT, he cannot enter the kingdom. John 3: 5
How many births is that? One or two?
Jesus authorized the baptism in water by His disciples, When one is baptized in water, Jesus gives that individual the gift of the Holy Spirit, baptizing him with the Spirit. Any connection between the two or are they just one baptism?
God bless
Those that believe receive the Spirit. John 7: 39
Those that repent and are baptized, receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. Acts 2: 38, 39
The Holy Spirit is given to those that OBEY Him. Acts 5: 32
Jesus said, preach the gospel, "He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved." Mark 16: 15, 16
We must not only believe the gospel (Rom. 1: 16) but we must obey the gospel. 2 Thess. 1: 8
Although Jesus was a Son, He learned obedience from the things which he suffered, and having been made perfect, He became to all who obey Him the source of eternal salvation. Heb. 5: 8, 9
Man made rituals???
Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God; because many false prophets have gone out into the world. 1 John 4: 1
Those that repent and are baptized, receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. Acts 2: 38, 39
The Holy Spirit is given to those that OBEY Him. Acts 5: 32
Jesus said, preach the gospel, "He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved." Mark 16: 15, 16
We must not only believe the gospel (Rom. 1: 16) but we must obey the gospel. 2 Thess. 1: 8
Although Jesus was a Son, He learned obedience from the things which he suffered, and having been made perfect, He became to all who obey Him the source of eternal salvation. Heb. 5: 8, 9
Man made rituals???
Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God; because many false prophets have gone out into the world. 1 John 4: 1
Unfortunately I have unresolved issues with this sect and when they come here it is hard not to get involved.
I am doing my best..you are absolutely right though... I should not be interacting, you are not the first to remind me.
Thank you!
I am doing my best..you are absolutely right though... I should not be interacting, you are not the first to remind me.
Thank you!
As a Christian we must insure G-d's word is presented correctly...to the extent of our abilities, no matter who we must face.
Those here trying to change Bible interpretations since the 1960's....are harmful to G-d's clear message and intent
....."keep up the good fight until the end"......
and, you are baptized in the Spirit at the time you are water baptized.... at least according to Peter...
whether you get any miraculous manifestations of the Spirit is totally up to the Spirit, and could happen at any time....
whether you get any miraculous manifestations of the Spirit is totally up to the Spirit, and could happen at any time....
I've heard you say it before...or at least have read this quoted post previously... that the holy ghost comes immediately at water baptism. While I very much appreciate that you see the strong link between water baptism and that of the holy ghost, the biblical examples do not support the supposition that the Holy Ghost baptism happens AT water baptism. In fact, I think the biblical play-by-play accounts of people receiving the Holy Ghost clearly and repeatedly show that no such rule exists. Please consider (and re-read, please) the following accounts:
Play-by-play example #1. Acts 2:1-4. The first record of the outpouring of the promise (baptism of the Holy Ghost). Please forgive me for making the assumption that those first disciples, including Peter, had been baptized prior to the day in which they received the baptism of the Holy Ghost. But I see no statement of any of that first upper-room group getting water-baptized that day.
Play-by-play example #2. Acts 8:5-17. Philip and the Samaritans. In verse 5 Philip preaches to them. In verse 12 they believe and get baptized. Verses 14-16 the apostles hear of this and send 2 to pray for them because verse 16 clearly states that although they’ve been water baptized, they have not yet received the Holy Ghost. Not until verse 17 does the bible state that they actually receive the Holy Ghost.
Play-by-play example #3. Acts 10:44-48. Cornelius and his group. In this example the Holy Ghost is poured out upon them (verse 44) before water baptism is even offered to them (verse 48).
Play-by-play example #4. Acts 19:1-7. Paul talking to disciples at Ephesus. The bible already declares them as disciples in verse 1. Verse 2, Paul makes no assumption that disciple=has holy ghost. In verse 5 they are baptized. In verse 6, they receive the holy ghost, not stated as “at baptism” but in this particular example it was instead stated that
“when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them”.
Those are the only 4 biblical accounts (that i can currently recall) in which the individuals are stated as receiving both the Holy Ghost and water baptism... along with the order in which these things occur. And they show no set chronological pattern. Feel free to share any other biblical accounts if you find them. Meanwhile, my prayer is that you do continue to tell people that they have need to receive baptism in water and baptism in the Holy Ghost… but without a time constraint that is unsupported by the examples given to us in the bible.
BTW, even Jesus told his disciples to tarry in Jerusalem UNTIL they receive the promise from the father...but even he wouldn’t tell them exactly when that would happen…. just to seek until they find (so to speak). Acts 1:4-8. That’s how it still is today. We are to seek until we receive.
Love in Jesus,
Kelby
No.... I don't think it's a "rule" that it happens only/exactly at that time. All that Peter told the 3000 was that when you repent and are baptized you will receive the Spirit. Not really saying that it will definitely, without exception, happen at that moment.
Personally, I think it DOES happen at that moment for many new believers.. but, as you have pointed out, there is one scriptural reference that indicates that at least in THAT instance, it required the laying on of the apostles hands... at least several days after baptism. I don't pretend to know why that is.
I can't really use one scripture as an unflexible pattern... the same way that people shouldn't use the thief on the cross as an example of "you don't have to ever be baptized to be saved" .... that was a "one off" event, at least from all scriptural accounts.
Peter's account of Pentecost does not say definitively that the 3000 all received the Spirit at that moment.... that is simply what Peter promised them... "do this, and this will happen"....
Personally, I think it DOES happen at that moment for many new believers.. but, as you have pointed out, there is one scriptural reference that indicates that at least in THAT instance, it required the laying on of the apostles hands... at least several days after baptism. I don't pretend to know why that is.
I can't really use one scripture as an unflexible pattern... the same way that people shouldn't use the thief on the cross as an example of "you don't have to ever be baptized to be saved" .... that was a "one off" event, at least from all scriptural accounts.
Peter's account of Pentecost does not say definitively that the 3000 all received the Spirit at that moment.... that is simply what Peter promised them... "do this, and this will happen"....
That has been brought up in the past... I disagree with that theory, mainly because Peter told those at Pentecost that it was for everyone from now on. And, there are several examples of Gentiles being baptized as well. Cornelius and family, the eunuch from Ethiopia, Lydia may well have been a gentile..
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the thing is, Peter did not say this, the original text does not allow it.
Peter told ALL to repent, and they would receive the gift of the Holy Spirit (2nd person plural)
He then told those who repented to be baptized in the name of Jesus because they received remission of sin (3rd person singular)
Peter told ALL to repent, and they would receive the gift of the Holy Spirit (2nd person plural)
He then told those who repented to be baptized in the name of Jesus because they received remission of sin (3rd person singular)