Baptism: is it required to be baptized in water?

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KelbyofGod

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Oct 8, 2017
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Who gave you this lame explanation? the thief on the cross came way after John the baptist had been baptizing people in river Jordan. Was John baptizing in the old or new covenant?
If it was not necessary then, it isn't now.
As for who gave me the explanation, I got it while and because of praying about something I didn't understand. Someone once told me that the thief died under the old covenant, but I don't like to believe things just because someone tells me. So I took it to God himself until he showed my WHY it was true.

John was water baptizing as one aspect of preparing the way before him (Jesus) ... An aspect that Jesus then continued in his own ministry..(John 4:1) But whatever John did, he did under the old covenant...because I'm guessing you would agree that John the baptist died while the old covenant was still solidly in place.

#1 Are you sure you want to make an assertion that if something wasn't required in the OT, it isn't required in the NT?

The fact that they are differing covenants dictates that they will have different requirements. And the fact that the water baptism of the new covenant is different than John's baptism in the old covenant is shown in Acts 19. Also, after Jesus resurrection, he commanded his disciples to continue baptizing and specified a NAME to be used in baptism (his name)...which they did (Acts2, 8 & 19)

#2 Are you saying that people don't have to believe the gospel in the new covenant?

#3 Do you believe someone who does not have the Holy Ghost is saved?

"Now, if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is NONE of his" (Romans 8:9)

Love in Jesus,
Kelby
 

preston39

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Dec 18, 2017
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And as for the thief in the cross:
Whether you are convinced that a person only needs to "believe the gospel" to be saved in the new covenant... or if you believe a person has to "receive the Holy Ghost" to be saved... or both. Neither of these was even available to the thief on the cross...so he wasn't under the new covenant. He was still under the OLD covenant at the time of his death. (proof is in post #1285)Love in Jesus,
Kelby
K...,

Not true. You do not know that about the thief.
 

preston39

Senior Member
Dec 18, 2017
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Who gave you this lame explanation? the thief on the cross came way after John the baptist had been baptizing people in river Jordan. Was John baptizing in the old or new covenant?
If it was not necessary then, it isn't now.
N...,

Not true...apples and oranges.
 

Magenta

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Jul 3, 2015
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You posted but, not related.
The command from Jesus to make disciples and baptize them is not related to a thread on baptism? What kind of twisted logic is that? Perhaps you simply do not want to answer the question. How many people have you baptized? It was a command from Jesus. If I had to guess based on your evasive illogical response, I would say you have not followed the command of Jesus to make disciples and baptize them.
 

LW97

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1 Corinthians 15:1-6 finally refutes the idea of water baptism being required. if it was so, the Apostle Paul would have mentioned it there. You will say "yes, but that isn't the whole Gospel". Oh really? So Paul didn't preach the whole Gospel to the Corinthians? Wouldn't that have been foolish of him?
 

KelbyofGod

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LW97,

For one, I don't think the gospel (good news) is limited to only those 6 verses in 1 Corinthians 15. Nor does it seem a requirement that all of those items HAVE to be believed before God can save a person. For example: Will you declare every believer to be unsaved if he hasn't yet learned that Jesus was seen of Cephas?

But one thing does seem clear, which I don't think you have yet acknowledged, is that EVEN IF the gospel were fully contained in those few verses, only ONE of the items on Paul's list was available to the thief on the cross,... because the 2nd and 3rd items (and all items that follow) had NOT happened at the time of death of the thief on the cross. Please go read the list again and tell me if you are able to see that.

And it's not a battle of me vs. you (or you vs. me). Have you considered the risk if we're unable or unwilling to acknowledge that our own church might have a flaw in its doctrine?

Love in Jesus,
Kelby
 
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LW97

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LW97,

For one, I don't think the gospel (good news) is limited to only those 6 verses in 1 Corinthians 15.
Kelby
Yes, it is. If it wansn't, then it would mean Paul didn't tell the Corinthians the whole truth. And Paul told the Corinthians Christ sent him not to baptize. This should finally proof water cannot wash away your sins.
 

LW97

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Apr 10, 2018
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#1 Are you sure you want to make an assertion that if something wasn't required in the OT, it isn't required in the NT?

The fact that they are differing covenants dictates that they will have different requirements. And the fact that the water baptism of the new covenant is different than John's baptism in the old covenant is shown in Acts 19. Also, after Jesus resurrection, he commanded his disciples to continue baptizing and specified a NAME to be used in baptism (his name)...which they did (Acts2, 8 & 19)

#2 Are you saying that people don't have to believe the gospel in the new covenant?

#3 Do you believe someone who does not have the Holy Ghost is saved?

"Now, if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is NONE of his" (Romans 8:9)

Love in Jesus,
Kelby
#1 If it was so, that Water Baptism was required now, then it would mean salvation was more complicated than it was before. Also, you will notice that everybody who got baptized, already was saved. Are you saying a person who believed the Gospel but did not get baptized is not saved? Are you sure water can be holy?

#2 On that I agree, people MUST believe the Gospel.

#3 Of course not. And nobody receives the Holy Ghost by Water Baptism, only by repentance and faith.
 

LW97

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The command from Jesus to make disciples and baptize them is not related to a thread on baptism? What kind of twisted logic is that? Perhaps you simply do not want to answer the question. How many people have you baptized? It was a command from Jesus. If I had to guess based on your evasive illogical response, I would say you have not followed the command of Jesus to make disciples and baptize them.
Water is a sign of obedience, but it cannot save. Does it say in Romans 10:13 "whosoever calls upon the Lord and gets water baptized shall be saved"? Only the Baptism of the Holy Spirit can save, period.
 

LW97

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The problem is that Acts 2:38 isn't the only verse in the Bible which deals with salvation. While many claim to "speak where the scriptures speak and remain silent where the scriptures are silent," they practically ignore most of the New Testament teaching on salvation. The only verses that such false teachers quote and reference are the ones they feel they can use to promote their "water gospel." The fact is that most of what the New Testament says about salvation doesn't include baptism at all! (John 5:24, John 11:25-26, John 14:6, Romans 4:5, Romans 10:9-13, Eph. 2:8-9, etc.), and the few places that do mention water baptism do not include it as part of one's salvation. Water baptism follows salvation as one of the first steps of obedience for the new believer.In spite of this obvious truth, the cultists remain steadfast in their heresy, insisting that Acts 2:38 sets forth water baptism as a requirement for salvation. Thus, this verse of scripture has become Satan's favorite Bible verse. In fact, many are trusting water baptism alone for the salvation of their souls! Indeed, Satan has deceived multitudes by his perversion of Acts 2:38.Rather than ignore Acts 2:38 by quoting "our favorite verses" instead, it is more appropriate to face this popular verse of scripture and see if the cultists are right in what they claim it teaches.
The Truth about Acts 2:38
First, please notice that verse 38 isn't the only verse in Acts 2. In Peter's message, a great deal was said before verse 38 came out of his mouth. In fact, he even told his listeners how to be saved before verse 38! In Acts 2:21, Peter quotes from Joel 2 and says, "And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved." His words preceding verse 38 were so convicting that his listeners were "pricked in their heart" in verse 37. So, to use verse 38 out of its context causes a misrepresentation of God's word. The verse does not stand alone, and, in fact, a totally different meaning is conveyed when one makes it stand alone.
Another error that many make with Acts 2:38 is the error of assumption. It is assumed that the word "for" must mean "in order to get." That is, being baptized "for" the remission of sins supposedly means to be baptized "in order to get" remission of sins. However, a closer look at the scriptures will reveal that this isn't the case at all.Notice Luke 5:12-14: "And it came to pass, when he was in a certain city, behold a man full of leprosy: who seeing Jesus fell on his face, and besought him, saying, Lord, if thou wilt, thou canst make me clean. And he put forth his hand, and touched him, saying, I will: be thou clean. And immediately the leprosy departed from him. And he charged him to tell no man: but go, and shew thyself to the priest, and offer for thy cleansing, according as Moses commanded, for a testimony unto them." Jesus made this man clean in verse 13, yet in the next verse, verse 14, Jesus tells him to go offer a sacrifice "for thy cleansing" as a "testimony." Here the word "for" cannot mean "in order to get" because he had already gotten his cleansing in verse 13! It obviously meant "because of" his cleansing. If a man goes to jail "for stealing," then he goes there "because of" the stealing that he's already done, not "in order to get" a chance to steal again.Some like to argue that the Greek word "eis" means "in order to," but this isn't always the case. Jesus said in Matthew 12:41, "The men of Nineveh shall rise in judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: because they repented at (eis) the preaching of Jonas; and, behold, a greater than Jonas is here." The Greek word for "at" is "eis." Does this mean that the men of Nineveh repented "in order to get" the preaching of Jonah? No, they repented "because of" the preaching of Jonah. So, even "the Greek" doesn't demand the popular interpretation of Acts 2:38. The word "for" can be used different ways, not just one, so it is wrong to assume that it must mean "in order to get" in Acts 2:38.Another factor which is commonly ignored is the JEWISH factor. Every person in Acts 2 is a Mosaic law observing Old Testament Jew. In fact, they are all gathered together to observe a JEWISH FEAST called Pentecost (verse 1). A fair reading of the whole chapter (especially verses 4, 14, and 36) will clearly reveal that no Gentiles (non Jews) are present. Since this involves Jews, it involves a NATION (verse 36!!), not individuals. No one asked, "What must I do to be saved?" The question asked concerned the NATION of Israel: "Men and brethren, what shall we do?" (verse 37) Not, "What shall I do," but rather, "What shall WE do?" Acts 2 presents a NATION of people who come to realize that they have murdered their blessed Messiah and they're asking what THEY must do. It's a question concerning NATIONAL salvation. Isaiah 66:8 says, ". . . shall a nation be born at once? for as soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children." The "nation" is Israel! Romans 11:26 says, "And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob." Acts 2:38 is dealing with NATIONAL salvation. The Messianic Kingdom is still available to the Jews (until Acts 7:60 when they kill Stephen), so national salvation remains an issue until then.This is clear from what follows Acts 7. In Acts 8, an individual from Africa is saved (before baptism). In Acts 9, an individual from Asia is saved (before baptism). In Acts 10, an individual from Europe is saved (before baptism). Why didn't these individual conversions occur before Acts 7? Because the first seven chapter of Acts deal with Israel (1:6-8; 2:36; 3:12; 4:8-10; 5:31; 6:7-14; 7:1-60). The question of INDIVIDUAL salvation is asked and answered in Acts 16:30-31: ". . . Sirs, what must I do to be saved? And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house." Those who fail to make this distinction are guilty of violating II Timothy 2:15 where we are told to RIGHTLY DIVIDE the word of truth.The Bible says the gospel is to go to the Jew FIRST (Rom. 1:16), so they are the FIRST to receive the gospel in the book of Acts (chapter 2), but they are not the last to receive it. Acts doesn't end with chapter 2, so we should be cautious of anyone who develops their doctrine in Acts 2 while practically ignoring the next 26 chapters! If God didn't stop in Acts 2, then why does anyone else? Could it be that the later chapters in Acts contain information which the cultists want hidden from us? Could it be that there are other scriptures in Acts which do not agree with the wording of Acts 2:38? Could it be that Peter himself, the one preaching in Acts 2:38, says something different when speaking to individual Gentiles like you and me? One only has to read Acts chapter 10 to get the answer. Peter is preaching again in Acts 10, except only to individual Gentiles, and something very interesting occurs. In Acts 2:38, the Holy Ghost was promised to be given to the converts AFTER they were baptized, yet in Acts 10:44 the Holy Ghost falls upon the Gentiles BEFORE they are baptized! Now, Paul tells us in Romans 8:9, " . . .if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his." Having God's Spirit is synonymous with belonging to God or being saved (John 3:6-8), so the Gentiles in Acts 10 were saved BEFORE they were baptized in water. Why don't the Acts 2:38 cultists ever point this out? Answer: It destroys their perverted doctrine that water baptism is essential for salvation.The fact is that Acts 2:38 is NOT the "model" plan of salvation, nor are any of the other "water verses" which the cultists use. Only by taking such verses out of their context can one teach such heresy. All of the Bible is true, not just the favorite "proof texts" of the cults. Baptism saves no one. It only serves as a testimonial picture of the death, the burial, and the resurrection of Jesus Christ AFTER one has believed on Christ (Acts 8:36-38). Paul said in I Corinthians 1:17 that ". . . Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect." This "gospel" is defined by Paul in I Corinthians 15:1-4, and it does NOT include water baptism. The dying thief was not baptized, yet Jesus saved him (Luke 23:42-43), and John wrote that we are washed in the BLOOD of Christ (Rev. 1:5), not in the water. In fact, the saints in Heaven claim to have gotten there by the blood of Jesus (Rev. 5:9), not by water. By faith in the blood of Jesus Christ one is saved (Rom. 3:25). Water baptism only follows this faith as an outward step of obedience.Friend, if you have fallen for the water gospel, why not repent of your sin and trust Jesus Christ alone? Acts 10:43 says, "To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins." Why not believe on Christ 100% right now and quit trusting something you DO for salvation? "Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ." (Rom. 5:1) Ephesians 2:8-9 says, "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast." Romans 10:9-13 says, "That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved." Why not right now?


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Magenta

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Jul 3, 2015
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Water is a sign of obedience, but it cannot save. Does it say in Romans 10:13 "whosoever calls upon the Lord and gets water baptized shall be saved"? Only the Baptism of the Holy Spirit can save, period.
I agree :) Jesus uses water as a metaphor for the Holy Spirit of God, also. In fact, Scripture explicitly states that by speaking of rivers of living water, He meant the Spirit... I have posted these Scriptures before, but will again, because it has been a while :)

Whoever believes in me, as the Scripture has said, ‘Out of
his heart will flow rivers of living water.’”
John 7:38

Jesus said to her, “Everyone who drinks of this water will be thirsty again, but whoever drinks of the water that I will give him will never be thirsty again. The water that I will give him will become in him a spring of water welling up to eternal life.” John 4:13b-14

And he said to me, “It is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. To the thirsty I will give from the spring of the water of life without payment." Rev 21:6

The Spirit and the Bride say, “Come.” And let the one who hears say, “Come.” And let the one who is thirsty come; let the one who desires take the water of life without price. Rev 22:17

With joy you will draw water from the wells of salvation. Isa 12:3

Then the angel showed me the river of the water of life, bright as crystal, flowing from the throne of God and of the Lamb Rev 22:1

On the last and greatest day of the festival, Jesus stood and said in a loud voice, “Let anyone who is thirsty come to me and drink. Whoever believes in me, as Scripture has said, rivers of living water will flow from within them.” By this he meant the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were later to receive. John 7:37-39a

They shall hunger no more, neither thirst anymore; the sun shall not strike them, nor any scorching heat. For the Lamb in the midst of the throne will be their shepherd, and he will guide them to springs of living water, and God will wipe away every tear from their eyes. Rev 7:16-17

Jesus answered her, “If you knew the gift of God, and who it is that is saying to you, ‘Give me a drink,’ you would have asked him, and he would have given you living water.” John 4:10
 

preston39

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Dec 18, 2017
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1 Corinthians 15:1-6 finally refutes the idea of water baptism being required. if it was so, the Apostle Paul would have mentioned it there. You will say "yes, but that isn't the whole Gospel". Oh really? So Paul didn't preach the whole Gospel to the Corinthians? Wouldn't that have been foolish of him?

L....,

That addresses Christs'purpose of being on earth.

I Corin. 15; 1-6....MOREOVER, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
5 And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve:
6 After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep.....

That does not address baptism or repentance, etc., Are you suggesting repentance isn't required either? Surely not.

Many scriptures requiring baptism. Let me know if you need references.
 

LW97

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Apr 10, 2018
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L....,

That addresses Christs'purpose of being on earth.

I Corin. 15; 1-6....MOREOVER, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
5 And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve:
6 After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep.....

That does not address baptism or repentance, etc., Are you suggesting repentance isn't required either? Surely not.

Many scriptures requiring baptism. Let me know if you need references.
Repentance is missunderstood to. The word actually means to turn around or to think different. In that case it's repenting to God and turning from your unbelief.

Are you saying water can be holy?
 

LW97

Senior Member
Apr 10, 2018
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I agree :) Jesus uses water as a metaphor for the Holy Spirit of God, also. In fact, Scripture explicitly states that by speaking of rivers of living water, He meant the Spirit... I have posted these Scriptures before, but will again, because it has been a while :)

Whoever believes in me, as the Scripture has said, ‘Out of
his heart will flow rivers of living water.’”
John 7:38

Jesus said to her, “Everyone who drinks of this water will be thirsty again, but whoever drinks of the water that I will give him will never be thirsty again. The water that I will give him will become in him a spring of water welling up to eternal life.” John 4:13b-14

And he said to me, “It is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. To the thirsty I will give from the spring of the water of life without payment." Rev 21:6

The Spirit and the Bride say, “Come.” And let the one who hears say, “Come.” And let the one who is thirsty come; let the one who desires take the water of life without price. Rev 22:17

With joy you will draw water from the wells of salvation. Isa 12:3

Then the angel showed me the river of the water of life, bright as crystal, flowing from the throne of God and of the Lamb Rev 22:1

On the last and greatest day of the festival, Jesus stood and said in a loud voice, “Let anyone who is thirsty come to me and drink. Whoever believes in me, as Scripture has said, rivers of living water will flow from within them.” By this he meant the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were later to receive. John 7:37-39a

They shall hunger no more, neither thirst anymore; the sun shall not strike them, nor any scorching heat. For the Lamb in the midst of the throne will be their shepherd, and he will guide them to springs of living water, and God will wipe away every tear from their eyes. Rev 7:16-17

Jesus answered her, “If you knew the gift of God, and who it is that is saying to you, ‘Give me a drink,’ you would have asked him, and he would have given you living water.” John 4:10
Amen, I cannot disagree
 

preston39

Senior Member
Dec 18, 2017
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Repentance is missunderstood to. The word actually means to turn around or to think different. In that case it's repenting to God and turning from your unbelief.

Are you saying water can be holy?
L...,

You can't spin with me.

Repentance is repentance and baptism is baptism. What message are you trying to convey...of each?
 

LW97

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Apr 10, 2018
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L...,

You can't spin with me.

Repentance is repentance and baptism is baptism. What message are you trying to convey...of each?
The Bible says for by grace are ye saved and not by works. Water Baptism is a good work.
 

preston39

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Dec 18, 2017
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The Bible says for by grace are ye saved and not by works. Water Baptism is a good work.
L....,

Neither repentance or baptism is a work.

Grace is correct but, we must be prepared and qualified to receive it.
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
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L....,

Neither repentance or baptism is a work.

Grace is correct but, we must be prepared and qualified to receive it.
Choosing to believe the gospel by placing our faith (belief, trust, reliance) in Christ’s finished work of redemption as the all sufficient means of our salvation is not a work that merits our salvation. Through believing, we are completely trusting in "Another's work," (Christ's finished work of redemption).

Repentance is not a work that merits our salvation either. We must first repent "change our mind" before we can believe the gospel and become saved. Through repentance/faith, Christ is still the object of our complete trust in receiving salvation.

Baptism is a work which follows saving faith in Christ and if it's necessary for salvation, that would add merit on our part to receiving salvation because then we would be saved based on Christ's finished work of redemption “plus our baptism.”

So if baptism is not a work, what is it? Just a nothing? No work at all is accomplished when one is water baptized? Water baptism is a work of righteousness (Matthew 3:13-15) and we are not saved by works of righteousness which we have done (Titus 3:5) but by grace through faith (Ephesians 2:8).
 

KelbyofGod

Senior Member
Oct 8, 2017
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Baptism can be considered a work if you want to consider it that way...a work of faith not a work of the law. Or you can call it an act of faith, a submission to God's will, a fulfilling of righteousness, the way we are buried with him in the likeness of his death so we can rise with the likenesses of his resurrection, etc. These are all biblical ways to look at baptism.