Baptism of the Holy Spirit

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Jun 24, 2010
3,822
19
0
#81
Once you act on Rom 10:9, you are born again of holy spirit. You can then manifest it. ie: speak in tongues, along with the rest of the manifestations. If you are not born again, you cannot speak in tongues. Therefore, speaking in tongues is proof you are born again. Sadly, this does not mean that all who are born again will speak in tongues, but they could.
Once you begin to believe this and go down that road, you have to conclude that anyone that has called upon the name of the Lord for salvation by faith and does not speak in tongues (or manifest the gifts) has not been forgiven and cleansed from all sin. Why does tongues or the gifts of the Spirit have to be added to faith in the cross of Christ to prove that the believer has been saved by grace? What does believing upon the Son to have life and having righteousness imputed to us (when we believe) have to do with tongues or the gifts of the Spirit?

God's righteousness is an imputed gift (Rom 4:11) and the gifts of the Spirit are imparted gifts (1Cor 12:4-14). Imparted gifts can be given for a time and purpose (1Cor 13:8), but imputed gifts, like God's righteousness and eternal life (Rom 6:23), are permanent and put on the believer's account recorded in heaven (Gal 3:1-14, Rom 4). The imparted gifts are temporal and the imputed gifts are eternal. If we take that which is temporal and use it to justify that which is eternal, what have we done? We have made tongues and the manifestation of the gifts a form of righteousness and a measuring rod for salvation and being born again instead of faith in the blood of Christ. This is what the scriptures teach?...

Rom 10:6-17 6 But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is , to bring Christ down from above) 7 Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is , to bring up Christ again from the dead.) 8 But what saith it ? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is , the word of faith, which we preach ; 9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved . 10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the scripture saith , Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed . 12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. 13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved . 14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed ? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard ? and how shall they hear without a preacher ? 15 And how shall they preach , except they be sent ? as it is written , How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! 16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith , Lord, who hath believed our report? 17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

The righteousness that we have received from God comes by faith through the word (Rom 3:22, 10:17) and that is the evidence that we have from God that we are saved (Eph 2:8,9, Heb 11:1), not tongues or some gift, but faith in the cross of Christ. We receive the promise of the Spirit (Gal 3:14, Eph 1:13) when we believe and the Spirit bears witness with our spirit that we are the children of God (Rom 8:16). We may not understand this at first, being babes in Christ, but we grow in grace and knowledge and understanding of what Christ did for us through the finished work and we learn how to walk in the light and love of God as we are led by the Spirit through the word in the plan of God.
 
L

Laodicea

Guest
#82
Being born again should result in a changed life shown by the fruits of the spirit the gift of tongues is not a sign

2 Corinthians 5:17
(17) Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
Galatians 5:19-25
(19) Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
(20) Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
(21) Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
(22) But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
(23) Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
(24) And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
(25) If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

Note that tongues are not mentioned in the fruit of the spirit
 
Apr 13, 2011
2,229
11
0
#84
Once you begin to believe this and go down that road, you have to conclude that anyone that has called upon the name of the Lord for salvation by faith and does not speak in tongues (or manifest the gifts) has not been forgiven and cleansed from all sin.
Why would you assume that? I venture to say that most of the Christians on this board... heck, most of the Christians in the entire world, have not spoke in tongues. That does NOT mean they are not saved at all.

Why does tongues or the gifts of the Spirit have to be added to faith in the cross of Christ to prove that the believer has been saved by grace? What does believing upon the Son to have life and having righteousness imputed to us (when we believe) have to do with tongues or the gifts of the Spirit?
Because unless Christians USE what God has given them, they will not be all God intended them to be. Speaking in tongues, or not speaking in tongues has NO impact on a person's salvation. But a person who is saved CAN speak in tongues and operate the other manifestations as well.

God's righteousness is an imputed gift (Rom 4:11) and the gifts of the Spirit are imparted gifts (1Cor 12:4-14).
I Cor 12:7) But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.

Imparted gifts can be given for a time and purpose (1Cor 13:8), but imputed gifts, like God's righteousness and eternal life (Rom 6:23), are permanent and put on the believer's account recorded in heaven (Gal 3:1-14, Rom 4). The imparted gifts are temporal and the imputed gifts are eternal.
Yes, but the manifestations of holy spirit are not gifts. They are manifestations.

If we take that which is temporal and use it to justify that which is eternal, what have we done? We have made tongues and the manifestation of the gifts a form of righteousness and a measuring rod for salvation and being born again instead of faith in the blood of Christ.
Who is doing that? You?

This is what the scriptures teach?...

Rom 10:6-17 6 But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is , to bring Christ down from above) 7 Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is , to bring up Christ again from the dead.) 8 But what saith it ? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is , the word of faith, which we preach ; 9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved . 10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the scripture saith , Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed . 12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. 13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved . 14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed ? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard ? and how shall they hear without a preacher ? 15 And how shall they preach , except they be sent ? as it is written , How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! 16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith , Lord, who hath believed our report? 17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

The righteousness that we have received from God comes by faith through the word (Rom 3:22, 10:17) and that is the evidence
What is? Are you saying righteousness is evidence? Can you see/smell/taste/touch/hear righteousness? It is absolutely true that we are righteous. The bible says so. But how do you KNOW you are born again? How do you KNOW you are righteous?

that we have from God that we are saved (Eph 2:8,9, Heb 11:1), not tongues or some gift, but faith in the cross of Christ. We receive the promise of the Spirit (Gal 3:14, Eph 1:13) when we believe and the Spirit bears witness with our spirit that we are the children of God (Rom 8:16). We may not understand this at first, being babes in Christ, but we grow in grace and knowledge and understanding of what Christ did for us through the finished work and we learn how to walk in the light and love of God as we are led by the Spirit through the word in the plan of God.
What you say is absolutely true. But there is a further additional proof, in the senses realm, that these things are indeed true.

God bless.
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
164
63
#86
as i said before you asked many times now you just have to be patient it is promised it will come.
but if you start doubting and start wavering your faith to were you dont believe it will happen then it wont.
what will come?
start doubting WHAT?

do we need evidence in our FEELINGS that we are saved and being sanctified?
or is it faith and continuance?

For verily I say unto you, That whosoever shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; and shall not doubt in his heart, but shall believe that those things which he saith shall come to pass; he shall have whatsoever he saith. ( Matthew 11:23 ).
spoken to His disciples in person, referring to apostate Israel/Jerusalem (that mountain) who was persecuting (and would kill some of them).

the disciples received miraculous powers and abilities.

have you ever heard of a christian today being in THE STATE PEN and an angel comes and opens the door and they slip out of their shackles?

~

God hears our prayers: what He does after that is up to Him.

For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise.
( Hebrews 10:36 ).
referring to patience in affliction and suffering...not "waiting on God for a sign gift".
the Promise is eternal life...not glossolalia.

And so, after he had patiently endured, he obtained the promise. ( Hebrews 6:15 ).
referring to Abraham. why not post the context?

Hebrews 6
The Certainty of God’s Promise
13 For when God made a promise to Abraham, since he had no one greater by whom to swear, he swore by himself, 14 saying, “Surely I will bless you and multiply you.” 15 And thus Abraham,b having patiently waited, obtained the promise. 16 For people swear by something greater than themselves, and in all their disputes an oath is final for confirmation. 17 So when God desired to show more convincingly to the heirs of the promise the unchangeable character of his purpose, he guaranteed it with an oath, 18 so that by two unchangeable things, in which it is impossible for God to lie, we who have fled for refuge might have strong encouragement to hold fast to the hope set before us. 19 We have this as a sure and steadfast anchor of the soul, a hope that enters into the inner place behind the curtain, 20 where Jesus has gone as a forerunner on our behalf, having become a high priest forever after the order of Melchizedek.

If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.
But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed.
For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord.
A double minded man is unstable in all his ways. ( James 1:5-8 )
SUBJECT: Wisdom. wisdom is required to not be double-minded.

Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. ( Hebrews 11:1 )
referring to eternal life with Jesus.
this verse refutes the use of it to mean we are to seek a sign.

Jesus said unto him, If thou canst believe, all things are possible to him that believeth. ( Mark 9:23 )
referring to the man's doubt in CHRIST's ability to heal him.
not referring to "sign gifts".

do we really mean to put intention behind The Lord's words to say EVERY THING A MAN CAN IMAGINE is available to him?
 
Last edited:

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
164
63
#87
I think it's funny and somewhat ridiculous that people believe that the gift of tongues is no longer relevant or needed. In the area where I live, I run across more people in a single day who speak different languages than your average first century believer probably met in a lifetime. I could go to any apartment complex in my town and find anywhere from 5 to 15 different languages represented.The way I look at it, the gifts of tongues is needed more now than it ever was.
ummm....ok.
so you have "anywhere from 5 to 15 different languages represented"
and who says we do not need to know how to speak those languages to share the Good News, huh?

how did God arrange (exactly as He said he would), in judgment against unbelieving israel, for His "unlearned" local disciples to SUDDENLY speak of the wonderful works of God in the languages of the NATIONS (i.e: "anywhere from 5 to 15 different languages represented")?

isn't that what happened at Pentecost? so what tongues are you referring to, and who says we don't speak and learn languages today?

you are a missionary: doesn't a missionary take a translator with him today? or is he selected because he already knows the language?

Acts 2
The Coming of the Holy Spirit
1 When the day of Pentecost arrived, they were all together in one place. 2 And suddenly there came from heaven a sound like a mighty rushing wind, and it filled the entire house where they were sitting. 3 And divided tongues as of fire appeared to them and resteda on each one of them. 4 And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues as the Spirit gave them utterance.
5 Now there were dwelling in Jerusalem Jews, devout men from every nation under heaven. 6 And at this sound the multitude came together, and they were bewildered, because each one was hearing them speak in his own language. 7 And they were amazed and astonished, saying, “Are not all these who are speaking Galileans? 8 And how is it that we hear, each of us in his own native language? 9 Parthians and Medes and Elamites and residents of Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia, 10 Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the parts of Libya belonging to Cyrene, and visitors from Rome, 11 both Jews and proselytes, Cretans and Arabians—we hear them telling in our own tongues the mighty works of God.” 12 And all were amazed and perplexed, saying to one another, “What does this mean?” 13 But others mocking said, “They are filled with new wine.”

~

what were Isaiah and Jeremiah saying?

Isaiah 28:11
Very well then, with foreign lips and strange tongues God will speak to this people,

Jeremiah 5:15
O house of Israel," declares the LORD, "I am bringing a distant nation against you--an ancient and enduring nation, a people whose language you do not know, whose speech you do not understand.

what's Paul talking about here?

1 Corinthians 14:21
In the Law it is written: "Through men of strange tongues and through the lips of foreigners I will speak to this people, but even then they will not listen to me," says the Lord.

is this a pattern with the Lord?

what was really happening at Pentecost?

Acts 2
The Coming of the Holy Spirit
1 When the day of Pentecost arrived, they were all together in one place. 2 And suddenly there came from heaven a sound like a mighty rushing wind, and it filled the entire house where they were sitting. 3 And divided tongues as of fire appeared to them and resteda on each one of them. 4 And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues as the Spirit gave them utterance.
5 Now there were dwelling in Jerusalem Jews, devout men from every nation under heaven. 6 And at this sound the multitude came together, and they were bewildered, because each one was hearing them speak in his own language. 7 And they were amazed and astonished, saying, “Are not all these who are speaking Galileans? 8 And how is it that we hear, each of us in his own native language? 9 Parthians and Medes and Elamites and residents of Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia, 10 Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the parts of Libya belonging to Cyrene, and visitors from Rome, 11 both Jews and proselytes, Cretans and Arabians—we hear them telling in our own tongues the mighty works of God.” 12 And all were amazed and perplexed, saying to one another, “What does this mean?” 13 But others mocking said, “They are filled with new wine.”
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
164
63
#88
hi shroom...

What is? Are you saying righteousness is evidence? Can you see/smell/taste/touch/hear righteousness? It is absolutely true that we are righteous. The bible says so. But how do you KNOW you are born again? How do you KNOW you are righteous?.
The bible says so.
and...

Romans 8:16
The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God's children.
 
Feb 23, 2011
1,708
13
0
#89
Say it with me...
Yabba-Dabba-Doo.
Help-Me-Tie-My-Bowtie.
Show-Me-the-Keys-to-my-Honda.
JJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJ.

And I'm not even a Cessationist.
 

Dude653

Senior Member
Mar 19, 2011
12,357
1,047
113
#90
Say it with me...
Yabba-Dabba-Doo.
Help-Me-Tie-My-Bowtie.
Show-Me-the-Keys-to-my-Honda.
JJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJ.

And I'm not even a Cessationist.

Huh???????
 
F

FireOnTheAltar

Guest
#92
Like it or not, if the bible is being read in context and taken at face value, not once does it state that the gifts of the Spirit have ceased. I have heard many arguments over the years by Cessationists and each and each and every one of those arguments are not based on scripture but rather assumptions and conjecture which I consider to be a desperate attempt to add to scripture.

One would would have easier time arguing that the fruits of the Spirit have since ceased seeing as they are more rare among "christians" than the gifts these days.
 
P

Psalm2713

Guest
#93
The main question i want answered is how does one obtain the baptism of the Spirit? Keep in mind, ive been baptised with water, i am a born again christian and ive asked many times for the baptism of the Spirit and have received nothing, i dont feel more spiritual, i dont speak in tongues, i dont know how to heal, i dont seem to have any gift etc etc.

Lad I will tell you the same thing a brother once told me ... "keep asking God, keep praying"... we used to do prayer meetings for hours, we would pray without ceasing for hours, for me the only way I could pray that long would be by God's Spirit ... so keep praying, God promised and He delivers-it's a step of faith to receive it :)
does that make sense?
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
164
63
#94
Like it or not, if the bible is being read in context.
reading Corinthians in context can't possibly allow for continuationism: the CONTEXT is THE APOSTOLIC ERA.


and taken at face value, not once does it state that the gifts of the Spirit have ceased..
Paul was IN the Apostolic era when he wrote the letters.
he said they WOULD cease. absolutely zero question about that.

the only question is WHEN. not if.

1 Corinthians 13
8 Love never ends. As for prophecies, they will pass away; as for tongues, they will cease; as for knowledge, it will pass away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10 but when the perfect comes, the partial will pass away. 11 When I was a child, I spoke like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I gave up childish ways. 12 For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I have been fully known.

13 So now faith, hope, and love abide, these three; but the greatest of these is love.

~

after the foundational gifts cease, 3 things would remain to the end of the age:

FAITH
HOPE
LOVE

are faith and hope needed if "when the perfect comes" refers to Jesus?

so, if you don't have them ceasing yet, we should be seeing them cease BEFORE the end of the age
 
Last edited:
Feb 23, 2011
1,708
13
0
#96
reading Corinthians in context can't possibly allow for continuationism: the CONTEXT is THE APOSTOLIC ERA.




Paul was IN the Apostolic era when he wrote the letters.
he said they WOULD cease. absolutely zero question about that.

the only question is WHEN. not if.

1 Corinthians 13
8 Love never ends. As for prophecies, they will pass away; as for tongues, they will cease; as for knowledge, it will pass away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10 but when the perfect comes, the partial will pass away. 11 When I was a child, I spoke like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I gave up childish ways. 12 For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I have been fully known.

13 So now faith, hope, and love abide, these three; but the greatest of these is love.

~

after the foundational gifts cease, 3 things would remain to the end of the age:

FAITH
HOPE
LOVE

are faith and hope needed if "when the perfect comes" refers to Jesus?

so, if you don't have them ceasing yet, we should be seeing them cease BEFORE the end of the age

Hi, Zonerifficus-

Not all Continuationist teaching can be summed up in such a manner. I'm not a Cessationist, but you're aware of my vehement stand against Dispensationalism and the NAR garbage. "That which is teleios" (1 Cor. 13) is neither the final compilation of Scripture nor Jesus.
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
164
63
#97
Hi, Zonerifficus-

Not all Continuationist teaching can be summed up in such a manner. I'm not a Cessationist, but you're aware of my vehement stand against Dispensationalism and the NAR garbage. "That which is teleios" (1 Cor. 13) is neither the final compilation of Scripture nor Jesus.
hi PPS!
ya bro i know.

teleios is the stretching out towards the end-ish, correct?
looking forward to a summation.

which fits totally with Paulster's doctrine:D

at the very least we have a DRAW. which is very cool. it's something.
love you PPS.
zonest

also: look here...it's real simple:

APOSTOLIC ERA BEGINS >> The Acts of The Apostles <<< END APOSTOLIC ERA
 
Last edited:
Apr 13, 2011
2,229
11
0
#98
APOSTOLIC ERA BEGINS >> The Acts of The Apostles <<< END APOSTOLIC ERA
What is the "apostolic era"? Is that defined in the bible somewhere? Or did you make it up? It does fit well with cessationism, which is not defined in the bible either.
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
164
63
#99
What is the "apostolic era"? Is that defined in the bible somewhere? Or did you make it up? It does fit well with cessationism, which is not defined in the bible either.
Acts of the Apostles

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Jump to: navigation, search

"Acts" redirects here. For uses of Act, see Act (disambiguation).


The Acts of the Apostles (Greek: &#928;&#961;&#940;&#958;&#949;&#953;&#962; &#964;&#8182;&#957; &#7944;&#960;&#959;&#963;&#964;&#972;&#955;&#969;&#957;, Práxeis t&#333;n Apostól&#333;n; Latin: Acta Apostolorum), usually referred to simply as Acts, is the fifth book of the New Testament; Acts outlines the history of the Apostolic Age. The author is traditionally identified as Luke the Evangelist, see Authorship of Luke-Acts for details.

Acts of the Apostles - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 
Apr 13, 2011
2,229
11
0
Acts of the Apostles

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Jump to: navigation, search

"Acts" redirects here. For uses of Act, see Act (disambiguation).


The Acts of the Apostles (Greek: &#928;&#961;&#940;&#958;&#949;&#953;&#962; &#964;&#8182;&#957; &#7944;&#960;&#959;&#963;&#964;&#972;&#955;&#969;&#957;, Práxeis t&#333;n Apostól&#333;n; Latin: Acta Apostolorum), usually referred to simply as Acts, is the fifth book of the New Testament; Acts outlines the history of the Apostolic Age. The author is traditionally identified as Luke the Evangelist, see Authorship of Luke-Acts for details.

Acts of the Apostles - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Oh, I'm quite familiar with Acts, thanks. Just not the term "apostolic era"