Baptism

[shotgunner]

To shotgunner:
Thank you for your response. In John 4, 7 Jesus spoke of living water, referring to the Spirit. In John 3: 5 it is not living water, IMO “water” means “water”. IMO you cannot come out of the water unless you have first been immersed in the water; similarly you cannot come out of the Spirit unless you have been immersed in the Spirit.
IMO baptism in water is a symbol of purification, repentance, identification with Christ in His death, burial and resurrection, our own death to self, sonship, justification, obedience to purify our faith, etc. On the other hand baptism in the Spirit is about life, regeneration, renewal, guidance, comfort, entering the body, the presence of God, the sealing and pledge of God, promise, etc. We need them both. God bless.

I do agree that we need them both and I encourage any believer to be water baptized as soon as possible. I just don't agree that the water is a necessary part of salvation. God bless you also.

 

[KennethC]

I do agree that we need them both and I encourage any believer to be water baptized as soon as possible. I just don't agree that the water is a necessary part of salvation. God bless you also.

Well that leads to issues because what one must ask themselves is this;

If we say water baptism is not necessary then in turn we would be saying you can deny to keep his commandments.

What does the bible say though?
It says multiple times those who are His and love Him will keep His commandments, so if you are saying you don't need to be baptized then you are denying His commandments not keeping them.

 

[shotgunner]

Well that leads to issues because what one must ask themselves is this;

If we say water baptism is not necessary then in turn we would be saying you can deny to keep his commandments.

What does the bible say though?
It says multiple times those who are His and love Him will keep His commandments, so if you are saying you don't need to be baptized then you are denying His commandments not keeping them.

Respectfully, I think you have taken the word Baptized to always mean immersed into water. We do have to be baptized in Christ to be saved but that's immersed in Christ, not immersed in water.

 

[ANW9]

We are commanded to be baptized in many Bible verses.

"And Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit." Acts 2:28

We are not saved by baptism, but rather, we are following in the steps of Jesus, who was baptized by John the Baptist. This came from a Jewish tradition of cleansing by water. Many Jews even had a ritual bath or Mitvah in their homes so they could be cleansed daily in New Testament times.

I come from a Baptist tradition, so I believe in adult believer baptized by immersion. Others might differ about that.

Allan, you must be saved to be baptized. I hope you are beginning to realize that believing in Jesus is the way, and are intent on repenting of your sins, so you can be baptized.

''We are not saved by baptism'' (1Pet 3:21)

 

[mailmandan]

I think you misunderstood what I said. I'm not saying that the water Jesus is referring to in John when talking to Nicodemus is water baptism. I'm saying that Jesus is using water as a symbol for the Holy Spirit. Possibly it will all come across if you read it again. I think I'm in agreement with you on this.

I understand you are saying that the water Jesus is referring to in John 3:5 is not water baptism. You and I are in agreement on this and I was simply elaborating on what you said about living water. Plain ordinary H20 is not the source of spiritual cleansing and has no power to cause us to become born again.

 

[KennethC]

Respectfully, I think you have taken the word Baptized to always mean immersed into water. We do have to be baptized in Christ to be saved but that's immersed in Christ, not immersed in water.

Matthew 28:19, Mark 16:16, and Acts 2:38 is baptism in water while being done in His name !!!

And Matthew and Mark are clear commands, as well is John 3 where Jesus says unless one is born again of water and Spirit they will not enter the kingdom of heaven. Exodus 19:10-11, 29:4, 1 Corinthians 10:1-2, and Hebrews 9:18-20 are other passages that need to be looked at as they show both water and blood were always used for sanctification, not blood alone.

Plus when Jesus side was pierced what sprayed out ???

John 19:34
But one of the soldiers with a spear pierced his side, and forthwith came there out blood and water.

 

[Apostol2013]

thank you all for giving awesome pointers some pointers that is grounded in sound doctrine thank you for helping this least of the greatest . bless that man wich desires to know his saviour . that he will become a great thing in God. he is humble will obey all the commandments of God concerning the baptism blue water immersion and the baptism of the Spirit to be renewed quickened into the body through the manifestation inner glory quickening of the Holy Spirit the seal and protection that you are God's children.

 

[Apostol2013]

Matthew 28:19, Mark 16:16, and Acts 2:38 is baptism in water while being done in His name !!!

And Matthew and Mark are clear commands, as well is John 3 where Jesus says unless one is born again of water and Spirit they will not enter the kingdom of heaven. Exodus 19:10-11, 29:4, 1 Corinthians 10:1-2, and Hebrews 9:18-20 are other passages that need to be looked at as they show both water and blood were always used for sanctification, not blood alone.

Plus when Jesus side was pierced what sprayed out ???

John 19:34
But one of the soldiers with a spear pierced his side, and forthwith came there out blood and water.

amen he must be baptized by water and by spirit that we received the fire within for this power is needed as a great armament against the wiles of the enemy for the Spirit of God gives rightfull the discernment that you may not be confused but instead well grounded in sound doctrine

 

[KennethC]

thank you all for giving awesome pointers some pointers that is grounded in sound doctrine thank you for helping this least of the greatest . bless that man wich desires to know his saviour . that he will become a great thing in God. he is humble will obey all the commandments of God concerning the baptism blue water immersion and the baptism of the Spirit to be renewed quickened into the body through the manifestation inner glory quickening of the Holy Spirit the seal and protection that you are God's children.

Here is another passage that shows what testifies on our behalf that we are children of the Lord;

1 John 5:8

And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

“the problem is your response is 2 fold.

1. The gospel today is the same as it was in Moses day, and in abrahams day, and in king davids day, Through faith in the promised provision of God (which Christ fulfilled)

2. Jesus did not mention baptism in John 3. He answered Nicodemus what he meant. God so loved the world. he gave his only son, that whoever believes in him has eternal life. (no mention of baptism)

My remark stands. You can not replace baptism of the spirit. promised to all and on ALL WHO BELIEVE (prophesied by john the baptist, promised by jesus himself, and confirmed by paul (titus 3, romans 6 1 cor 12 col 2) with the baptism and water, and call a person saved, your committing blaphemy by replacing the work of God with the work of man.” eternally-gratefull
Response: Thank you for your response.
1. I agree that salvation is by grace through faith. But saving faith is not one dimensional, merely believing. The Scriptures tell us that faith without love is nothing (1 Cor. 13: 2) and that faith without works (of faith, the obedience of faith) is dead and useless. (James 2: 17, 20) Thus we see that saving faith comprehends both love and obedience. Abraham’s faith was perfected when he obeyed by offering up Isaac (James 2: 22), likewise our faith is perfected when we obey God by repenting and being baptized in the name of Christ. We are not justified by faith alone. (James 2: 24) Meaningful faith works through love. (Gal. 5: 6)
2. John 3: 16 This is a saving faith that comprehends both love and obedience. Love mingled with faith is the impetus for obedience. (John 14: 15) Love is greater than faith (1 Cor. 13: 13) Because something is not mentioned at one place does not justify diminishing it. Love for God and man are the greatest commandments.
I am certainly not trying to replace the baptism with the Spirit with the baptism in water in the name of Christ, my view is that they together constitute the one baptism. The conversion of Cornelius demonstrates that both are essential. Jesus said one must be born (come forth) from water and the Spirit to enter the kingdom. IMO one cannot come forth from water unless you have first been immersed in water, similarly one cannot come forth from the Spirit unless you have first been immersed in the Spirit. IMO baptism is a work of faith (Gal. 3: 26, 27), which would make it a work of God. Your closing remark is both unkind and insulting. Thank you. God bless.

You trying to replace the work of God (baptism of the Holy Spirit) with baptism of man (in water) is both unkind (to God) and insulting (to God and myself)

Your trying to earn a gift. Salvation can not be earned by works. But those who have TRUE FAITH WILL WORK.. (ie, get baptized in water, Assemble together, Serve others. Give, be obedient, etc etc)

As James said, If we have TRUE FAITH, it will be proven by WORK. vs mere belief (even demons believe) but A dead faith which will save NO ONE

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Well that leads to issues because what one must ask themselves is this;

If we say water baptism is not necessary then in turn we would be saying you can deny to keep his commandments.

What does the bible say though?
It says multiple times those who are His and love Him will keep His commandments, so if you are saying you don't need to be baptized then you are denying His commandments not keeping them.

Saying one does not have to be baptized to be saved, and one does not need to be baptized is not the same thing. lets get serious here..

 

[eternally-gratefull]

amen he must be baptized by water and by spirit that we received the fire within for this power is needed as a great armament against the wiles of the enemy for the Spirit of God gives rightfull the discernment that you may not be confused but instead well grounded in sound doctrine

wow. So you want to be baptized in Hell? (Fire)

There is ONE BAPTISM, not three. which saves.

But thanks for at least admiting there are MANY baptisms spoken of in scripture.

Now which one saved? the one done By God, prophesied by john the baptist, and promised by Jesus (the one of God) or the one of water (which represents the true baptism which saves)

 

[shotgunner]

I have discussed this subject many times and never once have I ever seen a "must be dunked" believer change their mind.


I want everyone to be baptized in water who has been born again. The only thing I object to are those who so strictly adhere to their "must be dunked" doctrine that it wounds people. I once ministered to a young man in prison who had been saved, yet a "preacher" damned him to Hell because he hadn't been dunked in water. Before his encounter with that preacher he had been full of joy and excitement about Christ. After this preacher told him all his prayers and worship of God were useless and in vain without being completely submerged in water, he tried to kill himself.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

one thing you will notice, is ALL the must be dunked people believe salvation can be lost. Thus they teach a merited justification of works. and not a grace based justification by faith.

that is what is dangerous.

 

[KennethC]

I have discussed this subject many times and never once have I ever seen a "must be dunked" believer change their mind.


I want everyone to be baptized in water who has been born again. The only thing I object to are those who so strictly adhere to their "must be dunked" doctrine that it wounds people. I once ministered to a young man in prison who had been saved, yet a "preacher" damned him to Hell because he hadn't been dunked in water. Before his encounter with that preacher he had been full of joy and excitement about Christ. After this preacher told him all his prayers and worship of God were useless and in vain without being completely submerged in water, he tried to kill himself.

The problem is that you have born again before baptism, and that is not the standard of the believer as Apostle Peter shows in Acts 2:38 repentance and baptism (H2O) is done before one receives the Holy Spirit.

People who take and say one is born again before baptism comes from those who have misused Acts 10 of the example of those Gentiles receiving the Holy Spirit before baptism. The problem with using that passage is because those Gentile believers were only given the Holy Spirit first to end the contentions/arguing from the Jews that Gentiles had the same right to salvation as they were. It was used to prove a point to the Jewish believers not to be taken as the standard !!!

Here are those passages again that need to be taken into account that show blood and water both were always used in sanctification;

Exodus 19:10-11, 29:4, 1 Corinthians 10:1-2, and Hebrews 9:18-20

Once again ask yourself can you be saved unto salvation and also be a disobedient servant ???

If you believe you can you need to read Luke 12 and Hebrews 3-4 for both places show those who are disobedient will be appointed a place along with the unbelievers !!!

 

[eternally-gratefull]

The problem is that you have born again before baptism, and that is not the standard of the believer as Apostle Peter shows in Acts 2:38 repentance and baptism (H2O) is done before one receives the Holy Spirit.

People who take and say one is born again before baptism comes from those who have misused Acts 10 of the example of those Gentiles receiving the Holy Spirit before baptism. The problem with using that passage is because those Gentile believers were only given the Holy Spirit first to end the contentions/arguing from the Jews that Gentiles had the same right to salvation as they were. It was used to prove a point to the Jewish believers not to be taken as the standard !!!

Here are those passages again that need to be taken into account that show blood and water both were always used in sanctification;

Exodus 19:10-11, 29:4, 1 Corinthians 10:1-2, and Hebrews 9:18-20

Once again ask yourself can you be saved unto salvation and also be a disobedient servant ???

If you believe you can you need to read Luke 12 and Hebrews 3-4 for both places show those who are disobedient will be appointed a place along with the unbelievers !!!

No he does not. because he has born again after baptism (titus 3: 15.. Not by works of righteousness which we have done (which would include water baptism) but BY HIS MERCY he SAVED US by the WASHING (BAPTISM) and RENEWAL (NEW BIRTH) OF THE HOLY SPIRIT

 

[shotgunner]

Kenneth
I'll only say that I don't see water baptism as one part of a two part combination necessary for salvation. I do however strongly admonish any believer to be baptized in water and would think something seriously wrong if a believer didn't desire to be baptized in water.

I see the blood and water references but I've always taken water as a representation of the Spirit.

 

[pwrnJC]

This is preposterous! "Born of water" means the birth sac and the breaking of water when a baby is ready to enter into this world. The birth canal is then ready for the child to be more easily birthed. Yes, Jesus said that "YE must be born of water and of the Spirit". You can't be born of the Spirit if you haven't been born of water first..DUH!!!!! This does not mean that we have to be sprinkled, dunked or splashed with holy water before the holy spirit can reside within us. Neither does it mean that the liquid water utilized here is birthing us. I just don't understand the confusion here. We are transformed by the renewing of our MINDS...not our heads soaked with water.

 

[KennethC]

Kenneth
I'll only say that I don't see water baptism as one part of a two part combination necessary for salvation. I do however strongly admonish any believer to be baptized in water and would think something seriously wrong if a believer didn't desire to be baptized in water.

I see the blood and water references but I've always taken water as a representation of the Spirit.

Like I said though it is a clear command given by the Lord, and the bible says those who love Him and believe in Him will be baptized. So being that it is commanded by our Lord Jesus we as believers in Him should not be going around tell others they do not need to be baptized.

Also Mark 16:16 says those who believe and are baptized (both) will be saved, and 1 Peter 3:21 Apostle Peter says this antitype now saves us. He is not referring to it and it alone saves, but that it is just as important and process of sanctification through Christ for a believer as repentance is.

Repentance is the change of mind toward how our old sinful selves were that kept us enmity to God, and being immersed in the baptism by His name in water is a sign of a clear conscious to accept His way over ours. We are buried and risen with Him to a new nature by the Holy Spirit.

Obedience in the faith is clearly stressed throughout the NT, and disobedience is clearly warned against.
Therefore I will continue to defend obedience to His commands instead of tell others they don't have to be baptized as some others have done.

 

[KennethC]

This is preposterous! "Born of water" means the birth sac and the breaking of water when a baby is ready to enter into this world. The birth canal is then ready for the child to be more easily birthed. Yes, Jesus said that "YE must be born of water and of the Spirit". You can't be born of the Spirit if you haven't been born of water first..DUH!!!!! This does not mean that we have to be sprinkled, dunked or splashed with holy water before the holy spirit can reside within us. Neither does it mean that the liquid water utilized here is birthing us. I just don't understand the confusion here. We are transformed by the renewing of our MINDS...not our heads soaked with water.

No it does not as you need to go back and read that passage in John 3 again, because Jesus tells Nicodemus why he doesn't understand being born again since he is a teacher of the law.

Natural birth had nothing to do with the ordinances of the Mosaic laws, but sanctification does, and both water and blood both have always been used.

John 3:10
Jesus answered and said to him, "Are you the teacher of Israel and do not understand these things?