baptism

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fredoheaven

Senior Member
Nov 17, 2015
1,780
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48
1 John 5:8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.
The three earthly witnesses agree in one where the ‘water’ refers to the ceremonial washings and the ‘blood’ refers to the animal sacrifice that Christ had already finished or fulfilled on the cross once for all (Hebrews 9:10-14) yet the heavenly witnesses is far greater which salvation were acts of the Triune God, the Father sent the Son, the Son’s shed blood is for redemption and the Holy Spirit convicts, converts the believing sinner.

Washing in the waters of baptism is not an equivalent to washing in Jesus blood. This only resembles or pictures to represent something that is already transpired.

Romans 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Romans 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
 
Mar 14, 2011
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With that mindset, faith, repentance, confession, submission to God, believing, and love are also "works".
Yet, without all of them, there will be no salvation.
Please don't confuse the "works of the Law" with simple obedience.
Typical legalistic mindset, non of those things bring glory to self. You can not "boast" because you placed your faith in someone else because you were hopeless and lost unable to save yourself, You can not BOAST or take glory because you changed your mind and chose to trust in God to save you, and not in self, You can not boast because you confessed you were a sinner, How can you take glory to that?? " He m,an, I confessed my sins, look at what a great person I am, people will laugh at you.. Submitting to God? Yep, I can get glory for myself from that..

But baptism? We can boast of this, we can take glory for it and honor ourselves.. "I got baptised in front of 1000 people and had to give my testimony in front of them, How many people did you get baptised in front of?? Only 30. Wow man, thats all? Or how about this? I got baptised in a cold water when it was 35 degrees outside and snowing, how about you? In a church in a heated pool. Oh man, thats week!!

Try to learn what a work is man, Not of works LEST anyone should boast..
 
May 11, 2014
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Baptism is to be done in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit as instructed by Jesus in the great comission.
Confirmed in the Didache, an ancient christian document that confirms this formula. This is how the Church at large has been baptizing for centuries, no reason to change it due to a couple of oneness pentecostal cults.
 
Oct 6, 2017
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Good grief... I thought you knew me better than that.... or are you just wanting to make a point?

I have never claimed that we (I) can live sinless lives. We (I) fail every day to live sinless lives.

What I was talking about was deliberate refusal to obey Jesus command to be baptized. I fully expect every saved believer to fail during their walk with God to obey all commands... but, if you know Jesus commanded baptism, and you willingly accept Jesus as your savior, but REFUSE to be baptized? I would have to question whether that person was truly giving their life to Jesus.

I mean, if you refuse to obey from the "get-go"..... :confused:

If it is an optional kind of thing, why did Jesus command it? Why did the apostles command/expect it?

How far are you willing to go, to try to "prove" that baptism isn't important? I am not willing to do that. I'd much rather take Jesus command at face value, and not try to parse it down to "how much can I get away with" .... that smacks of the Pharisees tithing even their spices... or asking "how many times are we required to forgive someone"....
It seems you are on track concerning baptism and when and what its for, however, I am not so sure you are answering the key question. Understanding the importance of obedience, let us move past this point and use a hypothetical, lets say a person believes in the Lord Jesus Christ and His finished work on the Cross, turns from there sin and gets saved, but for some uncontrollable reason this person can not get baptized immediately, maybe a medical reason, maybe the unavailability of water, maybe this person has a hart attack 2 min. after being saved. What ever the reason, the question is, will this person be saved without baptism?
 

PJW

Banned
Oct 6, 2017
859
5
0
1 John 5:8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.
The three earthly witnesses agree in one where the ‘water’ refers to the ceremonial washings and the ‘blood’ refers to the animal sacrifice that Christ had already finished or fulfilled on the cross once for all (Hebrews 9:10-14) yet the heavenly witnesses is far greater which salvation were acts of the Triune God, the Father sent the Son, the Son’s shed blood is for redemption and the Holy Spirit convicts, converts the believing sinner.

Washing in the waters of baptism is not an equivalent to washing in Jesus blood. This only resembles or pictures to represent something that is already transpired.
Hi, Fred,
As you don't believe that we are washed of our sins by Jesus' blood...while we are on the cross with Him...where else is the application of the sanctifying blood being applied to us written about?
If not done during our "immersion" into His death, where is it done?
And where is it written of that our old man is killed, buried, and raised with Christ to walk in nenwness of life...besides Romans 6:3-6?
Especially, a way that can free you from sin? (Rom 6:7)
 

PJW

Banned
Oct 6, 2017
859
5
0
Typical legalistic mindset, non of those things bring glory to self. You can not "boast" because you placed your faith in someone else because you were hopeless and lost unable to save yourself, You can not BOAST or take glory because you changed your mind and chose to trust in God to save you, and not in self, You can not boast because you confessed you were a sinner, How can you take glory to that?? " He m,an, I confessed my sins, look at what a great person I am, people will laugh at you.. Submitting to God? Yep, I can get glory for myself from that..

But baptism? We can boast of this, we can take glory for it and honor ourselves.. "I got baptised in front of 1000 people and had to give my testimony in front of them, How many people did you get baptised in front of?? Only 30. Wow man, thats all? Or how about this? I got baptised in a cold water when it was 35 degrees outside and snowing, how about you? In a church in a heated pool. Oh man, thats week!!

Try to learn what a work is man, Not of works LEST anyone should boast​..
I'm sorry you feel this way.
I don't boast about obedience to God or to His messengers.
You seem though, to boast of your disobedience.

BTW, the opposite of "legal" is "illegal".

How long has "your' belief allowed you to live without sin now?
That is the end result of the water baptism described by Paul in Rom 6.
 

hornetguy

Senior Member
Jan 18, 2016
5,010
398
83
It seems you are on track concerning baptism and when and what its for, however, I am not so sure you are answering the key question. Understanding the importance of obedience, let us move past this point and use a hypothetical, lets say a person believes in the Lord Jesus Christ and His finished work on the Cross, turns from there sin and gets saved, but for some uncontrollable reason this person can not get baptized immediately, maybe a medical reason, maybe the unavailability of water, maybe this person has a hart attack 2 min. after being saved. What ever the reason, the question is, will this person be saved without baptism?
I have answered this question perhaps 10 or 15 times on this forum, but I'll give it another go...

My first question is... do you believe God is our all-knowing and loving father? That He loves us more completely and perfectly than ANY human father could love his kids?

If you believe that, then that is your answer. God knows what's in our hearts. Jesus came to eliminate our impossible task of trying to follow all the points of the law.

God WANTS us to be saved. That's why He made it so easy to accomplish. If a person in one of those rare, hypothetical situations COULD not be baptized, do YOU think our all-knowing, loving father would kick them to the curb?

I do not. I believe our God loves us, and wants us to be saved.

And, fortunately, I do not have to concern myself with the decision of whether a person is saved.
 
Mar 14, 2011
52,981
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I'm sorry you feel this way.
I don't boast about obedience to God or to His messengers.
You seem though, to boast of your disobedience.

BTW, the opposite of "legal" is "illegal".

How long has "your' belief allowed you to live without sin now?
That is the end result of the water baptism described by Paul in Rom 6.
Thank bud, But you just proved you have no standing, I never said I was disobedient, I was baptised. So as you eat your words, I will place you into my ignore bin with the rest of the heretics. Enjoy your time there, I will pray for you.
 

PJW

Banned
Oct 6, 2017
859
5
0
Thank bud, But you just proved you have no standing, I never said I was disobedient, I was baptised. So as you eat your words, I will place you into my ignore bin with the rest of the heretics. Enjoy your time there, I will pray for you.
You started your post with "legalistic", inferring a difference from "illegalistic".
As you don't prefer the legal ways and means, it is obvious you prefer the illegal ways.
Is not disobedience equal to illegal?

Why would you hope a heretic enjoys his time here?
 

fredoheaven

Senior Member
Nov 17, 2015
1,780
37
48
Hi, Fred,
As you don't believe that we are washed of our sins by Jesus' blood...while we are on the cross with Him...where else is the application of the sanctifying blood being applied to us written about?
I believe we are wash of our sins by Jesus blood but not of water baptism. Water cannot save.
 

fredoheaven

Senior Member
Nov 17, 2015
1,780
37
48
If not done during our "immersion" into His death, where is it done?
Simply, It was done on the cross of Calvary and when I put my trust/faith(belief) in Jesus such that, I’ve been washed by His blood not by/with the water which only symbolizes, pictures, the washing away of sins.

A keyword study to a full understanding of Romans 6 are word/s phrase “ the like” or “likemind”. The biblical illustration of this “likeness” is in Genesis when God created mankind in His own “likenes” though, we have our will, emotion and intellect yet still man is not God. The same through when the word is used in similar manner/fashion yet these are different. The water of baptism likewise, simply represents the fact that we’ve already been washed by his blood when we put our trust/faith in Christ.

Inferring immersion as a belief of salvation is not conclusive. You see when you are only immersed follows only the death but there’s no raising up.
 

fredoheaven

Senior Member
Nov 17, 2015
1,780
37
48
And where is it written of that our old man is killed, buried, and raised with Christ to walk in nenwness of life...besides Romans 6:3-6?
1What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.
8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.

The old man (the sin nature) is crucified and buried with Christ and not by/with the waters of baptism.
 

fredoheaven

Senior Member
Nov 17, 2015
1,780
37
48
Especially, a way that can free you from sin? (Rom 6:7)
Would you be free from the burden of sin? There’s power in the blood! Not in the tub.

Eph. 1:7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

Col. 1:14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
 

p_rehbein

Senior Member
Sep 4, 2013
21,995
387
83
baptism.............hmm, wonder why no one ever thought to discuss this before?

:(
 
Oct 6, 2017
100
11
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baptism.............hmm, wonder why no one ever thought to discuss this before?

:(
Well friend, baptism is a very important subject to discuss, especially when thousands of people are being lead down the road to hell by the baptismal regeneration crowed and their works based salvation! And lets not forget Gal. 1:8 a curse to those who change the gospel! We know that baptism is no where to be found in the gospel as earlier stated and confirmed in this thread.
 

FlSnookman7

Senior Member
Jun 27, 2015
1,124
126
63
I asked this before but got no answer, if baptism is essential to salvation how was the thief on the cross next to Jesus saved? Again, I am all for getting baptized but it does not save you, only Jesus saves.
 

PJW

Banned
Oct 6, 2017
859
5
0
I believe we are wash of our sins by Jesus blood but not of water baptism. Water cannot save.
Do you really think Peter was wrong?
He said..."[FONT=&quot]Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost." (Acts 2:38)

The water IS the blood.
It is written..."[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one." (1 John 5:8)

They are the same thing.[/FONT]
 

PJW

Banned
Oct 6, 2017
859
5
0
Simply, It was done on the cross of Calvary and when I put my trust/faith(belief) in Jesus such that, I’ve been washed by His blood not by/with the water which only symbolizes, pictures, the washing away of sins.

Romans 6:3-6 states that our baptism is our immersion into Jesus' death, burial, and resurrection..."to walk in newness of life".
Why don't you have faith that this is true?


A keyword study to a full understanding of Romans 6 are word/s phrase “ the like” or “likemind”. The biblical illustration of this “likeness” is in Genesis when God created mankind in His own “likenes” though, we have our will, emotion and intellect yet still man is not God. The same through when the word is used in similar manner/fashion yet these are different. The water of baptism likewise, simply represents the fact that we’ve already been washed by his blood when we put our trust/faith in Christ.
You are jumping to conclusions that counter what is plainly written.

Inferring immersion as a belief of salvation is not conclusive. You see when you are only immersed follows only the death but there’s no raising up.
The proof of it's truth is provided by Paul in verse 7..." [FONT=&quot]For he that is dead is freed from sin."
If you still commit sin, your method is wrong.[/FONT]
 

PJW

Banned
Oct 6, 2017
859
5
0
1What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.
8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.

The old man (the sin nature) is crucified and buried with Christ and not by/with the waters of baptism.
I find it sad that you would deny what you quoted with your own perception.
 

PJW

Banned
Oct 6, 2017
859
5
0
Would you be free from the burden of sin? There’s power in the blood! Not in the tub.

Eph. 1:7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

Col. 1:14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
When/ where is the blood applied?
On the cross when we are "immersed" into Christ and into His death.