Baptismal Regeneration - Excerpts by Charles Spurgeon

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Dec 26, 2012
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#21
UMMM Then how do you reconcile these verses?

John 3

Now there was a Pharisee, a man named Nicodemus who was a member of the Jewish ruling council. 2 He came to Jesus at night and said, “Rabbi, we know that you are a teacher who has come from God. For no one could perform the signs you are doing if God were not with him.”
3 Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again.[a]
4 “How can someone be born when they are old?” Nicodemus asked. “Surely they cannot enter a second time into their mother’s womb to be born!”
5 Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit. 6 Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit[b] gives birth to spirit. 7 You should not be surprised at my saying, ‘You[c] must be born again.’ 8 The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.”[d]

1 Peter 3

For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God.He was put to death in the body but made alive in the Spirit. 19 After being made alive,[d] he went and made proclamation to the imprisoned spirits— 20 to those who were disobedient long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water,21 and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a clear conscience toward God.[e] It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 22 who has gone into heaven and is at God’s right hand—with angels, authorities and powers in submission to him.

Acts 22

12 “A man named Ananias came to see me. He was a devout observer of the law and highly respected by all the Jews living there. 13 He stood beside me and said, ‘Brother Saul, receive your sight!’ And at that very moment I was able to see him.
14 “Then he said: ‘The God of our ancestors has chosen you to know his will and to see the Righteous One and to hear words from his mouth. 15 You will be his witness to all people of what you have seen and heard. 16 And now what are you waiting for? Get up, be baptized and wash your sins away, calling on his name.’



It is faith that saves of course,so why are the two so tied together even by Jesus? Jesus plainly says no can enter the kingdom of heaven unless they are born of water and the spirit. So how do you reconcile them? The implication is that it is more then just a outward sign of an inward change.

 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
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#22
It does not matter who says it.
Matthew 28
17When they saw Him, they worshiped Him; but some were doubtful. 18And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. 19"Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit

Acts 2:38
Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

maybe it doesnt matter to you who said it.
it matters to me.
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
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#23
This one has next to no scripture use at all
Ephesians 4
4There is one body and one Spirit, just as also you were called in one hope of your calling; 5one Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6one God and Father of all who is over all and through all and in all.


which baptism is it stephen....the one Azusa Street thought up.

or the one the church has always obeyed and performed.
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
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#24
I have been baptized by water immersion shortly after I was saved at 19 years of age and believe that all who trust in the name of Christ should do the same, if they are physically able. Water baptism is a declaration by the one being baptized that they acknowledge and understand the new birth through the death of the cross to their old man and the deeds of that old man. It is an act of obedience and each one must be convicted by the word and the Spirit to do so after they have trusted Christ for salvation.
well, now you have 4 positions.

1) baptism isnt even an afterthought and has nothing to do with obedience or salvation or even the church

2) water baptism involves resurrection and is a NT commandment.

3) baptism in water is for the church but even though Israel did it, it means nothing for them (youre not sure why jews should be baptized), since they are not included in the promise to be an habitation for The Spirit (the church)

4) water baptism is a declaration by the one being baptized that they acknowledge and understand the new birth through the death of the cross to their old man and the deeds of that old man. It is an act of obedience

and another position, i assume, since you agree with Spurgeon, that God indeed mysteriously regenerates elect infants (no baptism needed) so they can go to heaven

is this helping your hyper-dispensationalist case at all:confused:
 

notuptome

Senior Member
May 17, 2013
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#25
Matthew 28
17When they saw Him, they worshiped Him; but some were doubtful. 18And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. 19"Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit
Not water baptism. Not Holy Spirit baptism. Baptism in the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Discipleship. Immersion in discipleship.
Acts 2:38
Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

maybe it doesnt matter to you who said it.
it matters to me.
Again not water baptism. The baptism for the forgiveness of sin is Holy Spirit baptism not water baptism.

Congrats on picking up that it only matters what God has said.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
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#26
I have been baptized by water immersion shortly after I was saved at 19 years of age and believe that all who trust in the name of Christ should do the same, if they are physically able. Water baptism is a declaration by the one being baptized that they acknowledge and understand the new birth through the death of the cross to their old man and the deeds of that old man. It is an act of obedience and each one must be convicted by the word and the Spirit to do so after they have trusted Christ for salvation.
well, stephen clicked like on your post.:)
thats good because:

perhaps the 2 of you could show me where the Baptism of the Holy Ghost comes in....is that after the water baptism, which is after you are filled with Spirit.....or do you wait and baptize with water after you receive the Holy Spirit when you believe...then receive the baptism of the Holy Ghost sometime later:confused:

what does this actually say:

Acts 2:38
Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
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#27
Not water baptism. Not Holy Spirit baptism. Baptism in the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Discipleship. Immersion in discipleship.
Again not water baptism. The baptism for the forgiveness of sin is Holy Spirit baptism not water baptism.

Congrats on picking up that it only matters what God has said.
so Roger...it is your assertion that this:

Matthew 28
17When they saw Him, they worshiped Him; but some were doubtful. 18And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. 19"Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit

is Holy Ghost Baptism. not water.
do i have that right...:)

no....i dont....your assertion is that Jesus meant immersion in discipleship.

Roger 28
17When they saw Him, they worshiped Him; but some were doubtful. 18And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. 19"Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them into discipleship, in the name of the father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.


OKAY...SO WE HAVE APPROXIMATELY 5 DIFFERENT BAPTISMS ASSERTED SO FAR.


stephen: do you agree with Roger, here:

Roger 28
17When they saw Him, they worshiped Him; but some were doubtful. 18And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. 19"Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them into discipleship, in the name of the father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.
 
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zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
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#28
I teach that believers ought to seek and receive water baptism after they are saved.
why...why do you teach them that:confused:

you had Holy Spirit baptism...then immersion in discipleship as the Great Commission baptism(s).

there`s ONE BAPTISM..

you should STOP teaching water....stop it
 
J

jimmydiggs

Guest
#29
[video=youtube;ybuuCLJwQwY]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ybuuCLJwQwY[/video]
Start at 7:29
Why are you quoting John MacArthur? I thought he was a lizard people.
 

notuptome

Senior Member
May 17, 2013
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#30
so Roger...it is your assertion that this:

Matthew 28
17When they saw Him, they worshiped Him; but some were doubtful. 18And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. 19"Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit

is Holy Ghost Baptism. not water.
do i have that right...:)

no....i dont....your assertion is that Jesus meant immersion in discipleship.

Roger 28
17When they saw Him, they worshiped Him; but some were doubtful. 18And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. 19"Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them into discipleship, in the name of the father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.


OKAY...SO WE HAVE APPROXIMATELY 5 DIFFERENT BAPTISMS ASSERTED SO FAR.


stephen: do you agree with Roger, here:

Roger 28
17When they saw Him, they worshiped Him; but some were doubtful. 18And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. 19"Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them into discipleship, in the name of the father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.
Not that I profess to be a greek scholar but the word used for baptize in this passage does not lend itself to water baptism. Men cannot baptize with the Holy Spirit nor can they baptize entire nations with water. So the only thing that they could do was teach the faith to those who heard and received the word of God. History records that this is what they did. Turning the whole world upside down for Christ. Since the subject of this passage is discipleship I see not reason to conclude that the baptism (immersion) is in anything other than the teaching of Christ that the disciples had learned. Disciples making disciples by teaching what Christ had taught them.

Isaiah 57:20 Dirty water that cannot rest.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 

notuptome

Senior Member
May 17, 2013
15,050
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#31
why...why do you teach them that:confused:

you had Holy Spirit baptism...then immersion in discipleship as the Great Commission baptism(s).

there`s ONE BAPTISM..

you should STOP teaching water....stop it
More Isaiah 57:20

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 
1

1still_waters

Guest
#32
Acts 2:38
Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
If you're going to link baptism to a cause of salvation, by isolating this verse from the overall Bible context of how salvation works, then don't you also have to tie "repent" to a cause of salvation too?

Those saying that baptism saves, also argue that faith and justification come before repentance. But if you isolate this verse from the overall context of scripture it looks as if repentance is one of the first things to happen.

Also, how can a baby repent without first having God infuse faith?

I just see a lot of problems when you isolate this verse from the overall context of the Bible.

You end up with babies who are able to repent, and you end up with repentance coming before the infusion of grace/faith. Most folks who believe in infant baptism believe repentance is a fruit of infused grace/faith. But this verse alone looks more like repentance comes before those.
 
1

1still_waters

Guest
#33
Another concerning thing with me as I continue to wrestle with and struggle with these tough verses which appear to link baptism to salvation, is that so many seem to be interpreting through the lens of a secular, anti-supernatural bias. And as I stated in my previous post, others are reading these verses without tying them to the overall context of how God works grace/faith/salvation/forgiveness/repentance in the heart.

Those in favor of infant baptism actually sound more like Arminians, because they're bold about verses that show repentance as a first cause that comes before justification.
 

maxwel

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2013
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#34
Baptism

I believe that God, in His providential wisdom, knew that Christians would quickly tire of bible study, and bible discussion, unless they had interesting topics to debate in a heated, passionate, and almost life-threatening manner. So He created baptism.

He also decided baptism wasn't enough to keep the arguments going...
so He also created Calvinists.
:)


Don't get mad at me, I love all my Calvinist brothers and sisters...
even though I feel I was predestined to love them, and really have no choice in the matter.
: )
 
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notuptome

Senior Member
May 17, 2013
15,050
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#35
Baptism

I believe that God, in His providential wisdom, knew that Christians would quickly tire of bible study, and bible discussion, unless they had interesting topics to debate in a heated, passionate, and almost life-threatening manner. So He created baptism.

He also decided baptism wasn't enough to keep the arguments going...
so He also created Calvinists.
:)


Don't get mad at me, I love all my Calvinist brothers and sisters...
even though I feel I was predestined to love them, and really have no choice in the matter.
: )
I knew you were going to say that...whew I'm glad that's over. It had to happen.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 

homwardbound

Senior Member
Oct 24, 2012
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#36
sigh....water doesnt save.
cant ya read what is posted, even by that terrible awful LCMS:confused:

Ephesians 4
4There is one body and one Spirit, just as also you were called in one hope of your calling; 5one Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6one God and Father of all who is over all and through all and in all.

....

5. Similarly "faith" and "baptism" (the sacramental seal of faith) are connected (Mr 16:16; Col 2:12). Compare 1Co 12:13, "Faith" is not here that which we believe, but the act of believing, the mean by which we apprehend the "one Lord." "Baptism" is specified, being the sacrament whereby we are incorporated into the "one body." Not the Lord's Supper, which is an act of matured communion on the part of those already incorporate, "a symbol of union, not of unity" [Ellicott]. In 1Co 10:17, where a breach of union was in question, it forms the rallying point [Alford]. - JFBBC


1 Therefore I, the prisoner united with the Lord, beg you to lead a life worthy of the calling to which you have been called. 2 Always be humble, gentle and patient, bearing with one another in love, 3 and making every effort to preserve the unity the Spirit gives through the binding power of shalom. 4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as when you were called you were called to one hope. 5 And there is one Lord, one trust, one immersion, 6 and one God, the Father of all, who rules over all, works through all and is in all. - Ephesians 4; Ephesians 5 (Complete Jewish Bible)




Calvinists would disagree with you (Spurgeon)
Pelagius and Finney would agree with you.
Matthew 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:

So when is this to take place, it is after the resurrected Christ yes?

Mark 1:8 I indeed have baptized you with water: but he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost.
Luke 3:16 John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire:
John 1:26 John answered them, saying, I baptize with water: but there standeth one among you, whom ye know not;
John 1:33 And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost.
Acts 1:5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.

Then what came Pentecost? Baptized by Spirit of correct? And is it not the same today to be Baptized by Spirit of God and with fire to burn out one's dross when one asks God for it will be done

Ephesians 4:5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism,

So choose today which Baptism is in effect water or Spirit of God Baptism?

What is the only way God is worshipped today? Spirit or flesh?




































 

homwardbound

Senior Member
Oct 24, 2012
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#37
you said:

"You need to post this article by Charles Spurgeon and let the winds of conviction blow as they may. If you choose not to, I will, because it is needed and extremely relevant to the faith of believers as part of the doctrine of Christ and the church.

Another thing, if I may, this water baptism by immersion that we have as NT believers was never given to Israel or its commonwealth because this baptism involves resurrection, out with the old and in with the new, a putting off of the old man and a putting on with the one new man, and that baptism is for the church who are in Christ through the new birth. - BradC"

....

"this water baptism.....involves resurrection, out with the old and in with the new"

hahaha.
Acts 1:5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.
how are these two mixed when John was clear that they are not mixed? One is Water Baptism for repentance and the other is Spirit Baptism? Is there a differ3ence yet there is only one Baptism, confusion to truth from Father through Son
 

homwardbound

Senior Member
Oct 24, 2012
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#38
you mean your Baptism in The Holy Ghost (that you never were promised cuz it was for His witnesses, the real Apostles...even though that term appears nowhere).

baptized INTO Christ....into..... where is your baptism in Christ

bye then
So you do not believe in Holy Ghost baptism today for the new believer in Christ? then you are still of flesh and no flesh in Father's sight shall ever please Father. and all sin has by Christ been condemned to flesh (Romans 8:3) Did Christ not come to give new life in the Spirit or not? John 3
 

homwardbound

Senior Member
Oct 24, 2012
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#39
Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit. 6 Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit[b] gives birth to spirit.
Flesh is what one is first born with lut of the womb after the similitude of Adam and Eve, then as the wind blows:
John 3:8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
 
Aug 15, 2009
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#40
well, stephen clicked like on your post.:)
thats good because:

perhaps the 2 of you could show me where the Baptism of the Holy Ghost comes in....is that after the water baptism, which is after you are filled with Spirit.....or do you wait and baptize with water after you receive the Holy Spirit when you believe...then receive the baptism of the Holy Ghost sometime later:confused:

what does this actually say:

Acts 2:38
Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
IF..... you read 8 more chapters.......you would know. Yes, internet Bibles will let you do that. :p:rolleyes: