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B
I REPEAT TO THOSE WHO ASCRIBE TO LUTHERAN DOCTRINE
None of what you have said changes the fact that Lutherans believe in baptismal regeneration or that there is no regeneration of the soul without water baptism (which also includes infants). If you adhere to their doctrine then you also believe in the same and that is a dangerous doctrine that has misled many to believe in a false gospel. If you do not believe in baptismal regeneration as the Lutheran's teach, then you are contrary and if contrary why do you support their doctrine? Baptismal regeneration takes away from any sinner the promise of being justified by faith when they believe upon Christ and it minimizes as secondary the work of the cross and the blood of Christ. Infants, who have not reached the age of accountability and do not have a capacity to come under conviction of the Spirit, are covered by the blood of Christ where sin and sins were paid for and crucified. When they reach that age and come under conviction through the preaching of the gospel they can believe and be saved and justified by the blood that covered them as an infant and now has cleansed them from all sin including purging the conscience from dead works. That's not hard to understand now is it?
None of what you have said changes the fact that Lutherans believe in baptismal regeneration or that there is no regeneration of the soul without water baptism (which also includes infants). If you adhere to their doctrine then you also believe in the same and that is a dangerous doctrine that has misled many to believe in a false gospel. If you do not believe in baptismal regeneration as the Lutheran's teach, then you are contrary and if contrary why do you support their doctrine? Baptismal regeneration takes away from any sinner the promise of being justified by faith when they believe upon Christ and it minimizes as secondary the work of the cross and the blood of Christ. Infants, who have not reached the age of accountability and do not have a capacity to come under conviction of the Spirit, are covered by the blood of Christ where sin and sins were paid for and crucified. When they reach that age and come under conviction through the preaching of the gospel they can believe and be saved and justified by the blood that covered them as an infant and now has cleansed them from all sin including purging the conscience from dead works. That's not hard to understand now is it?
B
There is no scripture or passage of NT scriptures that supports any work of salvation, redemption, forgiveness of sins or regeneration associated with the act of water baptism administered as an infant, as a child or as an adult, before or after one has trusted in the name of Jesus Christ. You are being misled by others and you own understanding of what you have been taught. Was there a specific time in your life that you came under conviction of the gospel and realized your need to be forgiven and saved by the mercy and grace of God? If there was, that was the accepted time of your salvation and that is when you were cleansed of your sin and were born again as a new creature in Christ. Your previous and subsequent water baptism had nothing to do with it but I would say that those who prayed for you moved the heart of God and his mercy to draw you to himself for salvation through his Son. I don't think even Zone could disagree with that.
1 Peter 3:21
Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ
home is there some problem with wanting to be sure what Peter actually said?
it's better to quote directly if you want to refute water baptism (whatever you think he meant, best to say what he actually said).
so this, is a cop-out:
Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ
home is there some problem with wanting to be sure what Peter actually said?
it's better to quote directly if you want to refute water baptism (whatever you think he meant, best to say what he actually said).
so this, is a cop-out:
well sarah, it's either God working - or man's works.
if it's by 'works', it is no longer by grace.
so - stop baptizing in water if you think it's not God working
[some actually do - the Hyper-Dispensational Grace Movement]
Grace Movement Dispensationalist believe that the church started after Acts 2, focusing primarily on the ministry of Paul. Advocates of the "mid-Acts" position, such as Darby[17][18] identify the start of the church after the stoning of Stephen in Acts 7, or with the salvation of Saul in Acts 9,[19] or with Paul's first missionary journey in Acts 13. The 'Acts 28' position, most notably expounded by E. W. Bullinger, posits the beginning of the church after the 28th and concluding chapter of Acts.
Hyperdispensationalists are considered divisive[20] notably because they reject[21] the rite of water baptism practiced by almost all Christian denominations. They do practice baptism, but instead of water baptism (which is sometimes considered the only baptism), they believe in Baptism with the Holy Spirit, which occurs when a person becomes saved by believing that Jesus Christ died for our sins. Grace Movement Dispensationalist do not condone water baptism, but rather recognize it as not being needed, they believe being baptized by water is not necessary for salvation.
VS
Covenant Theology is the alternative view to dispensationalism that holds that God has one people Israel and the promises to Israel made in the Old Testament were fulfilled in Jesus Christ, the new Israel, and the object of Abraham's hope. Dispensationalists have often criticized Covenant Theology as being identical with what they call "Replacement Theology" or Supersessionism, the concept that the Church has replaced Israel. However, in Covenant Theology, the church is not a replacement for the nation of Israel but an expansion of it where Gentiles are "grafted into" the existing covenant community. Jewish Christians are included in the spiritual Israel.[13]
Dispensationalism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Luke 24
46and He said to them, "Thus it is written, that the Christ would suffer and rise again from the dead the third day, 47and that repentance for forgiveness of sins would be proclaimed in His name to all the nations, beginning from Jerusalem.
Matthew 28
18And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. 19"Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, 20teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age."
if it's by 'works', it is no longer by grace.
so - stop baptizing in water if you think it's not God working
[some actually do - the Hyper-Dispensational Grace Movement]
Grace Movement Dispensationalist believe that the church started after Acts 2, focusing primarily on the ministry of Paul. Advocates of the "mid-Acts" position, such as Darby[17][18] identify the start of the church after the stoning of Stephen in Acts 7, or with the salvation of Saul in Acts 9,[19] or with Paul's first missionary journey in Acts 13. The 'Acts 28' position, most notably expounded by E. W. Bullinger, posits the beginning of the church after the 28th and concluding chapter of Acts.
Hyperdispensationalists are considered divisive[20] notably because they reject[21] the rite of water baptism practiced by almost all Christian denominations. They do practice baptism, but instead of water baptism (which is sometimes considered the only baptism), they believe in Baptism with the Holy Spirit, which occurs when a person becomes saved by believing that Jesus Christ died for our sins. Grace Movement Dispensationalist do not condone water baptism, but rather recognize it as not being needed, they believe being baptized by water is not necessary for salvation.
VS
Covenant Theology is the alternative view to dispensationalism that holds that God has one people Israel and the promises to Israel made in the Old Testament were fulfilled in Jesus Christ, the new Israel, and the object of Abraham's hope. Dispensationalists have often criticized Covenant Theology as being identical with what they call "Replacement Theology" or Supersessionism, the concept that the Church has replaced Israel. However, in Covenant Theology, the church is not a replacement for the nation of Israel but an expansion of it where Gentiles are "grafted into" the existing covenant community. Jewish Christians are included in the spiritual Israel.[13]
Dispensationalism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Luke 24
46and He said to them, "Thus it is written, that the Christ would suffer and rise again from the dead the third day, 47and that repentance for forgiveness of sins would be proclaimed in His name to all the nations, beginning from Jerusalem.
Matthew 28
18And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. 19"Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, 20teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age."
hmmm....paul taught a different gospel though, didn't he?
O [not real] Paul, why u contradict yourself
O [not real] Paul, why u contradict yourself
It's really because we really don't understand that the Holy Spirit really doesn't work through baptism at all,because all it really is is just a little ceremony,that really doesn't do much of anything at all other then being an outward sign of an inward change and the Holy Spirit and faith have nothing to do with it.
Ceremony 28
"All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, and have a ceremony so people can see the outward obedience of the inward change by baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age."
^ isn't that really simple? isn't that actually what the Bible says? ^ right from Genesis?
it is...i'm certain...really...very certain.
Luke 24
46and He said to them, "Thus it is written, that the Christ would suffer and rise again from the dead the third day, 47and that repentance for forgiveness of sins would be proclaimed in His name to all the nations, beginning from Jerusalem.
Matthew 28
18And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. 19"Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, 20teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age."
it is...i'm certain...really...very certain.
Luke 24
46and He said to them, "Thus it is written, that the Christ would suffer and rise again from the dead the third day, 47and that repentance for forgiveness of sins would be proclaimed in His name to all the nations, beginning from Jerusalem.
Matthew 28
18And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. 19"Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, 20teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age."
[h=3]John 14:6
King James Version (KJV)[/h]
[SUP]6 [/SUP]Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
Matthew 3:11
King James Bible
I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:
[h=3]Acts 1:5
King James Version (KJV)[/h]
[SUP]5 [/SUP]For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.
[h=3]Acts 2:3-4[/h]King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]3 [/SUP]And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.
[SUP]4 [/SUP]And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
[h=3]Acts 19[/h][SUP]2 [/SUP]He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.
[SUP]3 [/SUP]And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.
[SUP]4 [/SUP]Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
[SUP]5 [/SUP]When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
[SUP]6 [/SUP]And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.
Acts 10
[SUP]43 [/SUP]To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.
[SUP]44 [/SUP]While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.
[SUP]45 [/SUP]And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.
[SUP]46 [/SUP]For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,
[SUP]47 [/SUP]Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
[SUP]48 [/SUP]And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.
Since you guys are talking about baptism...
King James Version (KJV)[/h]
[SUP]6 [/SUP]Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
Matthew 3:11
King James Bible
I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:
[h=3]Acts 1:5
King James Version (KJV)[/h]
[SUP]5 [/SUP]For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.
[h=3]Acts 2:3-4[/h]King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]3 [/SUP]And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.
[SUP]4 [/SUP]And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
[h=3]Acts 19[/h][SUP]2 [/SUP]He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.
[SUP]3 [/SUP]And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.
[SUP]4 [/SUP]Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
[SUP]5 [/SUP]When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
[SUP]6 [/SUP]And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.
Acts 10
[SUP]43 [/SUP]To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.
[SUP]44 [/SUP]While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.
[SUP]45 [/SUP]And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.
[SUP]46 [/SUP]For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,
[SUP]47 [/SUP]Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
[SUP]48 [/SUP]And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.
Since you guys are talking about baptism...
Baptism by Fire:
"to overwhelm with fire (those who do not repent), i.e., to subject them to the terrible penalties of hell"- J. H. Thayer
"of the fire of Divine judgment upon the rejectors of Christ, Matt. 3:11 (where a distinction is to be made between the baptism of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost and the fire of Divine retribution)" - W. E. Vine
"fire of divine Judgment Mt. 3:11; Lk. 3:16" - Arndt and Gingrich
"baptize you ... in fire" cannot refer to Pentecost, because there was no "baptism of fire" on that day. Parted "tongues," which were merely "like as of fire ... sat upon" each of the apostles. Those brothers were not "overwhelmed with fire" on that occasion - J. W. McGarvey
"to overwhelm with fire (those who do not repent), i.e., to subject them to the terrible penalties of hell"- J. H. Thayer
"of the fire of Divine judgment upon the rejectors of Christ, Matt. 3:11 (where a distinction is to be made between the baptism of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost and the fire of Divine retribution)" - W. E. Vine
"fire of divine Judgment Mt. 3:11; Lk. 3:16" - Arndt and Gingrich
"baptize you ... in fire" cannot refer to Pentecost, because there was no "baptism of fire" on that day. Parted "tongues," which were merely "like as of fire ... sat upon" each of the apostles. Those brothers were not "overwhelmed with fire" on that occasion - J. W. McGarvey
Matthew 3:11
King James Bible
I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:
Acts 1:5
King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]5 [/SUP]For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.
Acts 19
[SUP]2 [/SUP]He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.
[SUP]3 [/SUP]And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.
King James Bible
I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:
Acts 1:5
King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]5 [/SUP]For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.
Acts 19
[SUP]2 [/SUP]He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.
[SUP]3 [/SUP]And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.
...
see context of John's remarks.
check audience.
Matthew 3
But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to where he was baptizing, he said to them: "You brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the coming wrath?
recall Christ's warning:
Matthew 23
32"Fill up, then, the measure of the guilt of your fathers. 33"You serpents, you brood of vipers, how will you escape the sentence of hell? 34"Therefore, behold, I am sending you prophets and wise men and scribes; some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues, and persecute from city to city,
refer to 70AD.
<insert pic of fire and judgment>
see context of John's remarks.
check audience.
Matthew 3
But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to where he was baptizing, he said to them: "You brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the coming wrath?
recall Christ's warning:
Matthew 23
32"Fill up, then, the measure of the guilt of your fathers. 33"You serpents, you brood of vipers, how will you escape the sentence of hell? 34"Therefore, behold, I am sending you prophets and wise men and scribes; some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues, and persecute from city to city,
refer to 70AD.
<insert pic of fire and judgment>
B
It's really because we really don't understand that the Holy Spirit really doesn't work through baptism at all,because all it really is is just a little ceremony,that really doesn't do much of anything at all other then being an outward sign of an inward change and the Holy Spirit and faith have nothing to do with it.
Again you continue to avoid explaining verses like these
Romans 6
6 What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? 2 By no means! We are those who have died to sin; how can we live in it any longer? 3 Or don’t you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death?4 We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.
How do you deal with those passages? Paul flat out says IN BAPTISM we are baptized INTO Christ's death,and BURIED with Him. Paul plainly says something HAPPENS in baptism. No matter how hard you try you can't get around it that it is NOT just an outward sign of an inward change.
Never mind that Paul goes through all the things about the rituals that CAN DO NOTHING only for Jesus then to command something that in and of itself that would be just another ritual. How does that make sense to remove all the other rituals only to replace with something that is nothing more then a NEW RITUAL?
Paul says somethings happens in baptism so that we CAN LIVE A NEW LIFE,if that is NOT REGENERATION THEN WHAT IS IT? Please explain.
Romans 6
6 What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? 2 By no means! We are those who have died to sin; how can we live in it any longer? 3 Or don’t you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death?4 We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.
How do you deal with those passages? Paul flat out says IN BAPTISM we are baptized INTO Christ's death,and BURIED with Him. Paul plainly says something HAPPENS in baptism. No matter how hard you try you can't get around it that it is NOT just an outward sign of an inward change.
Never mind that Paul goes through all the things about the rituals that CAN DO NOTHING only for Jesus then to command something that in and of itself that would be just another ritual. How does that make sense to remove all the other rituals only to replace with something that is nothing more then a NEW RITUAL?
Paul says somethings happens in baptism so that we CAN LIVE A NEW LIFE,if that is NOT REGENERATION THEN WHAT IS IT? Please explain.
1
But is it that the act of baptism does all of that?
Or is it that since they baptized so close to conversion, that they could say these types of things about baptism, because for them conversion and baptism were basically the same thing due to doing them so close together?
This is a major part of Lutheranism my "discernment" just won't let me accept.
I've really tried to get my mind around an act of water hitting the skin, causing regeneration.
Or is it that since they baptized so close to conversion, that they could say these types of things about baptism, because for them conversion and baptism were basically the same thing due to doing them so close together?
This is a major part of Lutheranism my "discernment" just won't let me accept.
I've really tried to get my mind around an act of water hitting the skin, causing regeneration.