Bearing fruit

[mpaper345]

They are saying bearing good fruits does not go towards salvation,but having the Spirit you will bear good fruit anyway,but it has nothing to do with your salvation,it is a product of them being led of the Spirit,which is understandable.

So that is reasonable concerning that if we are led of the Spirit we will bear good fruit,but those good fruits are not part of salvation,but we will do them for we are led of the Spirit.

So that is not too big of an issue,and the question should be if we do not bear good fruits,having sin in our life,are we still in salvation position,and if they say no,then there is no problem,but if they say yes,there is a problem.

 

[Cee]

This is really good.

I noticed that when Paul says "God forbid" he is contrasting sin, law, and continuing in sin.

I agree Paul is not just talking about "sin as the law only". I think he is talking about not continuing in sin period. One of them following the law and being justified by grace.

But I also think a higher idea when I read it, is that maybe Paul is talking about following the Spirit, since God forbid is actually not following the Spirit, and Paul is outlining what it looks like now that you're saved in Christ. Here is how you continue in. We don't continue in sin, but we do continue in the Spirit.

At the heart of the Scripture, I think Paul is trying to help his readers discern what the Spirit does and doesn't do. And therefore what they should and shouldn't obey.

I'm not preaching it from a pulpit, but just chewing on those ideas.

You have both Jew and Gentile and both were under sin, follow the "God forbids" that is sort of neat

One points to continuing in sin

Romans 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?

Followed by

Romans 6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

So dead to sin (here)

And then below, "shall we (now) sin because we are not under the law (but) under grace

Romans 6:15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.

Both followed by that "God forbid", similar to Galations

He just told them that they were Jews (by nature) and not sinners of the Gentiles (although both were under sin)

Gal 2:17 But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves alsoare found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid.

But that is still not being justified by the law there but he says seeking to be justified by Christ which is followed by we ourselves ALSO are found sinners (since he says, we are Jews by nature not sinners of the Gentiles) but then he asks, is Christ then (who was a minister to the circumcision) therefore the minister of sin? God forbid.

In Romans 6:2 He speaks of being dead to sin, whereas Gal 2:19 speaks of being dead to the law, so no wonder Paul says in

Romans 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

Theres alot of "God forbids" there

 

[PilgrimPassingThru]

Yeah its like...

Well you have Jews (by nature) who felt justified by the law (and these not sinners of the Gentiles) but under sin equally (them being no better than the other). Who not knowing the rightouesness of God go about seeking to establish their own, theres a temptation to miss the boat in respects to that, O what? shall WE SIN ( now) since we are not under the law? (God forbid!) well. since a man is not justified by the works of law (but by the faith of Christ) which they had (but were sort of teetering). The Gentiles (them without the law) could all be like wow, thats great all we need is faith in Christ (got it!) we should just continue in sin (as we were) since its all about grace and where sin abounds grace does all the more (but again God forbid) Its like both were missing the boat.

Whether to remain in sin (them without the law) or come out from under the law (and be cool with sin) both would be a big God forbid.

So no continuing in sin and not justified by the law, is then the law sin? (God forbid)

Im writing fast we have a real bad storm right now will likely lose power here in a second lol

 

[Cee]

I would say it is clear that those who do such things have not truly been set free from sin, but I also believe a lot of people who claim to be Christian are only so in title, not truly being born again of the Holy Spirit.

I believe similar about people who do not show the fruits of the Spirit.

I agree a lot of people haven't walked in the reality of being set free of sin. But also a lot of people haven't been set free to love. And through love we exhibit all the fruits of the Spirit of God. And live out 1 Co 13.

Especially since Jesus said by their fruit you will know them.

The problem with only a focus on sin, is it completely misses the mark of why sin is wrong. And what sin should now be replaced by, and it's not attacking people and self-righteousness. It's actually to be replaced by love, kindness, gentleness, patience, just to name a few of the fruit we are to bear for our Lord.

John 13:35 By this all people will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.”

James 1:26If anyone thinks he is religious and does not bridle his tongue but deceives his heart, this person’s religion is worthless. 27Religion that is pure and undefiled before God, the Father, is this: to visit orphans and widows in their affliction, and to keep oneself unstained from the world.

Yes we keep ourselves unstained from the world, but we do this by loving people. Especially those who are afflicted according to James. He even goes so far to say that if you think you're religious, but your tongue betrays you, you are deceiving your heart and your religion is worthless.

When I read this Scripture, I think to myself, avoiding sin is good, preaching against sin is good, but it's worthless if it doesn't lead to me loving people and speaking lovingly to people. I believe this is the fruit Jesus was referring to when He said by their fruit you shall know them.

What does James consider wickedness?

1 James 1:19Know this, my beloved brothers: let every person be quick to hear, slow to speak, slow to anger; 20for the anger of man does not produce the righteousness of God. 21Therefore put away all filthiness and rampant wickedness and receive with meekness the implanted word, which is able to save your souls.

 

[Cee]

Let's take this a bit deeper...

My thoughts:

If teaching obedience to stay saved worked, the teachers and their students would be the most loving people on the planet. But this type of teaching usually focuses on what NOT to do to stay saved (don't sin) instead of what TO do to stay saved (love radically). Why? Because preaching against sin doesn't give us the power to love. Only receiving love does. And through receiving love, we choose to love out of our new found freedom. Love is a free choice not a forced one. God didn't have to save us, He chose to out of love. Receiving His love is how we don't sin. Because sin is when we don't have or live out of His love.

If you feel anything of what I said is unscriptural feel free to tell me, I will show you which Scriptures I have made these conclusions from.

 

[PilgrimPassingThru]

Grace is for obedience of the faith

Sanctification through the Spirit "unto obedience" is shown here

1Peter 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

Purifying our souls is in obedience to the truth "through the Spirit" here

1 Peter 1:22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently

Even as through the Spirit mortifying the deeds of the body that we might live is here

Romans 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

Phil 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

Phil 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

 

[49]

Let's take this a bit deeper...

My thoughts:

If teaching obedience to stay saved worked, the teachers and their students would be the most loving people on the planet. But this type of teaching usually focuses on what NOT to do to stay saved (don't sin) instead of what TO do to stay saved (love radically). Why? Because preaching against sin doesn't give us the power to love. Only receiving love does. And through receiving love, we choose to love out of our new found freedom. Love is a free choice not a forced one. God didn't have to save us, He chose to out of love. Receiving His love is how we don't sin. Because sin is when we don't have or live out of His love.

If you feel anything of what I said is unscriptural feel free to tell me, I will show you which Scriptures I have made these conclusions from.

Matthew 22:37-40 (KJV) Jesus said unto him, thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
This is the first and great commandment.
And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself.
On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

 

[Grace777x70]

Obedience of faith is to come to Christ and believe in Him for all things. We are saved by grace through faith.

We need to teach the grace of Christ as it is the only thing that really teaches how to live godly in this present world.

Romans 1:5 (KJV)
[SUP]5 [/SUP] By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name:

Acts 6:7 (NASB)
[SUP]7 [/SUP] The word of God kept on spreading; and the number of the disciples continued to increase greatly in Jerusalem, and a great many of the priests were becoming obedient to the faith.

 

[PilgrimPassingThru]

Jesus speaks of the one that is coming to him here in this place

Luke 6:47 [FONT=&quot]Whosoever cometh to me, and heareth my sayings, and doeth them, I will shew you to whom he is like[/FONT]

 

[PilgrimPassingThru]

Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,

Titus 2:12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;

 

[UnderGrace]

Cee, I really like your analogy (especially being a teacher ) however, are you saying we need to love to stay saved?

Let's take this a bit deeper...

My thoughts:

If teaching obedience to stay saved worked, the teachers and their students would be the most loving people on the planet. But this type of teaching usually focuses on what NOT to do to stay saved (don't sin) instead of what TO do to stay saved (love radically). Why? Because preaching against sin doesn't give us the power to love. Only receiving love does. And through receiving love, we choose to love out of our new found freedom. Love is a free choice not a forced one. God didn't have to save us, He chose to out of love. Receiving His love is how we don't sin. Because sin is when we don't have or live out of His love.

If you feel anything of what I said is unscriptural feel free to tell me, I will show you which Scriptures I have made these conclusions from.

 

[InSpiritInTruth]

Let's take this a bit deeper...

My thoughts:

If teaching obedience to stay saved worked, the teachers and their students would be the most loving people on the planet. But this type of teaching usually focuses on what NOT to do to stay saved (don't sin) instead of what TO do to stay saved (love radically). Why? Because preaching against sin doesn't give us the power to love. Only receiving love does. And through receiving love, we choose to love out of our new found freedom. Love is a free choice not a forced one. God didn't have to save us, He chose to out of love. Receiving His love is how we don't sin. Because sin is when we don't have or live out of His love.

If you feel anything of what I said is unscriptural feel free to tell me, I will show you which Scriptures I have made these conclusions from.

If you look at all the Bible history we see where God's people would go astray time and time again, and God would send them a deliverer after they suffered at the hands of the enemy. The book of Judges is a good example of this back and forth, people repenting of their sins walking in the way God told them to walk, and then over time they get fat and happy and forget all about the way they were told to walk. Then God would turn His wrath upon them, and once again they would cry out to the Lord to be delivered, and once again the Lord would send them another deliverer.

So if God's people would just walk in the way Jesus commanded them then there would be no need for sending the rod of correction or prophets, teachers, preachers to call people back to God and back to an obedient walk of faith. I personally see where many denominations have been deceived by a form of easy believism, and a twisted form of grace that does not speak out against ongoing sin, or even an obedient walk of faith. Because the notion has been put in their heads it does matter what you do because you are saved no matter what. Thus we have churches filled with all sorts wicked sinners, from homosexuals to child molesters, not to mention the money hungry preachers.

So of course if someone comes along and speaks out against their sinful behavior, then as history shows in the Bible they are not very well received, often persecuted and even killed in some cases. So I believe many have been led astray, and so I speak out against what I believe people have been misled into believing by many false teachers that was prophesied to come into the world. And one of those deceptions is that unrepentant ongoing sin and an obedient walk of faith does not matter for salvation.


Now I would love to speak of all the blessing to an obedient people, but that is not what is needful with an evil, backsliding, and rebellious people. There are plenty of preachers out there fleecing the flock that will tell them what they want to hear, but not according to the whole truth. People want to hear about all the blessings without being told about those darn ole curses. They want what they can get from the Lord, but yet do not ask the Lord what they can do for Him. Love for them is like a one way street, because they do not keep the Lords sayings and commandments. If they truly loved God and Jesus they would keep His sayings and commandments.


I believe we are at that point in time if Christians do not repent and turn back to walking in the ways of the Lord, and not walking in the ways of the world=sin. Then like in the days of old God's anger and wrath will wax hot and be poured out on them, because when He called they just hardened their hearts, and refused to listen.

 

[Cee]

Grace is for obedience of the faith

Sanctification through the Spirit "unto obedience" is shown here

1Peter 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

Purifying our souls is in obedience to the truth "through the Spirit" here

1 Peter 1:22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently

Even as through the Spirit mortifying the deeds of the body that we might live is here

Romans 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

Phil 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

Phil 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

Amen! Yes I totally agree!

I believe He works in us the will and the power to accomplish His word. But let's take this a little deeper, to accomplish what though? I think it's to love one another. That He gives us the power to love fiercely! I believe this is what brings us beyond "don't sin" and fully into repentance to His Kingdom.

Of course that's because I truly believe that the law (which revealed sin) is fulfilled by love. So the more we love, the less we sin, so I believe as Paul says here:

Gal 5:13 But do not use your freedom to indulge the flesh; rather, serve one another humbly in love.

1 Peter 2:15For this is the will of God, that by doing good you should put to silence the ignorance of foolish people. 16Live as people who are free, not using your freedom as a cover-up for evil, but living as servants of God. 17Honor everyone. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honor the emperor.

Also I just looked up "fear" in the Interlinear and it's the same word as afraid, terrified, etc.

So I agree yes, a little bit of fear of God is needed even in the New Testament.

Fear should lead us to serve Him, but I don't believe we shouldn't stop there, but move onto being loved as children. I believe as we progress we get to a place where we joyfully follow Him and He guides us with His eye. Because our eyes are ever on Him as His eyes are lovingly on us.

 

[Cee]

Cee, I really like your analogy (especially being a teacher ) however, are you saying we need to love to stay saved?

Thank you! Great question, No, but I am saying if we teach obedience to stay saved, it would have to include loving radically to be fully correct with Scripture, where Jesus outlines His command is to love each other how He loved us, which He loved us self-sacrificially to the point of death.

 

[UnderGrace]

Thank you! Great question, No, but I am saying if we teach obedience to stay saved, it would have to include loving radically to be fully correct with Scripture, where Jesus outlines His command is to love each other how He loved us, which He loved us self-sacrificially to the point of death.

Got it, Thanks!

 

[gb9]

If you look at all the Bible history we see where God's people would go astray time and time again, and God would send them a deliverer after they suffered at the hands of the enemy. The book of Judges is a good example of this back and forth, people repenting of their sins walking in the way God told them to walk, and then over time they get fat and happy and forget all about the way they were told to walk. Then God would turn His wrath upon them, and once again they would cry out to the Lord to be delivered, and once again the Lord would send them another deliverer.

So if God's people would just walk in the way Jesus commanded them then there would be no need for sending the rod of correction or prophets, teachers, preachers to call people back to God and back to an obedient walk of faith. I personally see where many denominations have been deceived by a form of easy believism, and a twisted form of grace that does not speak out against ongoing sin, or even an obedient walk of faith. Because the notion has been put in their heads it does matter what you do because you are saved no matter what. Thus we have churches filled with all sorts wicked sinners, from homosexuals to child molesters, not to mention the money hungry preachers.

So of course if someone comes along and speaks out against their sinful behavior, then as history shows in the Bible they are not very well received, often persecuted and even killed in some cases. So I believe many have been led astray, and so I speak out against what I believe people have been misled into believing by many false teachers that was prophesied to come into the world. And one of those deceptions is that unrepentant ongoing sin and an obedient walk of faith does not matter for salvation.


Now I would love to speak of all the blessing to an obedient people, but that is not what is needful with an evil, backsliding, and rebellious people. There are plenty of preachers out there fleecing the flock that will tell them what they want to hear, but not according to the whole truth. People want to hear about all the blessings without being told about those darn ole curses. They want what they can get from the Lord, but yet do not ask the Lord what they can do for Him. Love for them is like a one way street, because they do not keep the Lords sayings and commandments. If they truly loved God and Jesus they would keep His sayings and commandments.


I believe we are at that point in time if Christians do not repent and turn back to walking in the ways of the Lord, and not walking in the ways of the world=sin. Then like in the days of old God's anger and wrath will wax hot and be poured out on them, because when He called they just hardened their hearts, and refused to listen.

the Gospel- for God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in Him should not perish, but have eternal life.

inspritintruths gospel: God hates everyone who is not sinless like me.

false teaching??? you decide.

 

[UnderGrace]

I believe we are at that point in time if Christians do not repent and turn back to walking in the ways of the Lord, and not walking in the ways of the world=sin. Then like in the days of old God's anger and wrath will wax hot and be poured out on them, because when He called they just hardened their hearts, and refused to listen.

That you could believe that God would deal with his adopted sons and daughters like this just absolutely grieves my heart so deeply. I cannot even express what I feel.

I so want to write a treatise to defend God from this slander, and it is indeed slander, but I know that there is no scripture, no words, no pleading presently that could persuade you otherwise.

I pray you will reconsider, God loves His children!

 

[Grace777x70]

That you could believe that God would deal with his adopted sons and daughters like this just absolutely grieves my heart so deeply. I cannot even express what I feel.

I so want to write a treatise to defend God from this slander, and it is indeed slander, but I know that there is no scripture, no words, no pleading presently that could persuade you otherwise.

I pray you will reconsider, God loves His children!

It's the 2 different mindsets. It's how we view the scriptures without the revelation of the love and grace of God and NOT factoring in the finished work of Christ.

All the wrath scriptures are being stored up for the day of wrath but that is for the people that refuse to accept Christ - not His beloved children which Christ paid for with His blood - that took away the sin of the world for all those that believe and receive it.

God is not bringing wrath on people now. There is a day of wrath coming. People not in Christ will experience God's wrath come on the sin that is still their's because they are not in Christ.

The very presence of God burns up sin and if we are still in Adam's sin and not received Christ - those people will feel the wrath/presence of God on them. His wrath is really a manifestation of His love.

Romans chapters 1-2 is talking about those people that are without Christ in their life. They are "storing up wrath"

.Romans 2:5 (NASB)
[SUP]5 [/SUP] But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,

 

[PilgrimPassingThru]

Amen! Yes I totally agree!

I believe He works in us the will and the power to accomplish His word. But let's take this a little deeper, to accomplish what though? I think it's to love one another. That He gives us the power to love fiercely! I believe this is what brings us beyond "don't sin" and fully into repentance to His Kingdom.

Of course that's because I truly believe that the law (which revealed sin) is fulfilled by love. So the more we love, the less we sin, so I believe as Paul says here:

Gal 5:13 But do not use your freedom to indulge the flesh; rather, serve one another humbly in love.

1 Peter 2:15For this is the will of God, that by doing good you should put to silence the ignorance of foolish people. 16Live as people who are free, not using your freedom as a cover-up for evil, but living as servants of God. 17Honor everyone. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honor the emperor.

Also I just looked up "fear" in the Interlinear and it's the same word as afraid, terrified, etc.

So I agree yes, a little bit of fear of God is needed even in the New Testament.

Fear should lead us to serve Him, but I don't believe we shouldn't stop there, but move onto being loved as children. I believe as we progress we get to a place where we joyfully follow Him and He guides us with His eye. Because our eyes are ever on Him as His eyes are lovingly on us.

Yes, here it speaks of serving God with fear (even rejoicing) but with trembling also

Psalm 2:11 Serve the LORD with fear, and rejoice with trembling.

Paul also was with them in the same

1 Cr 2:3 And I was with you in weakness, and in fear, and in much trembling

Then told them to work out their own salvation with the same

Phil 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

For it is God

Phil 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

And the same fear and trembling is shown in submitting to another as can be seen in Titus (and them receiving him) in the same manner

2 Cr 7:15 And his inward affection is more abundant toward you, whilst he remembereth the obedience of you all, how with fear and trembling ye received him.

Heres a different word for fear but its shown in a verse that mentions grace with it also

Heb 12:28 Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear: For our God is a consuming fire.

 

[PilgrimPassingThru]

the Gospel- for God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in Him should not perish, but have eternal life.

inspritintruths gospel: God hates everyone who is not sinless like me.

false teaching??? you decide.

Where did he say this?