BEHOLD, THE BRIDEGROOM COMETH

abcdef · Mar 22, 2017

The dest of Jerusalem had to happen in order for all prophecy to be fulfilled,

But the fulfillment of the dest of Jerusalem was not the fulfillment of all prophecies.

Since you can't show how the scriptures that I gave you are fulfilled by 70 ad,

I would say that you are the desperate one.

Fulfilled with the dest of Jeru, 70 ad

You see, we agree on many scriptures.

It's just a matter of adjustment.

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This "everything finished by 70 ad" thing is cramping your prophecies.

After 70 ad, you have nothing.

You are totally blind to everything after 70 ad.

Don't you see a time in the future when there is a resurrection of the dead?

A time when we meet the Father?

A judgement where every knee shall bow?

An eternal life after death?

I gave you the scripture about men of faith in Heb 11:10, "For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God."

We all gaze to the heavens in search of that city, on the new, heavenly, eternal earth, just as they did.

You are only thinking of this material heavens and earth, that pass away.

1 Cor 4:18, "...: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal."

Locutus · Mar 22, 2017

There is no prophecy extending past 70 AD, that's why Jesus stated at the time of destruction of the city:

(Luke 21:22 KJV) For these be the days of vengeance, that ALL things which are written may be fulfilled.

You can't accept this because it does not fit with your distorted and made up "theology" primarily because you try to make figurative statements literal such as you think you are going to a wedding.

The other issues you have and other futurist "proponents" is a failure to read a literal version of the scriptures that show the correct timing sense/tense that the writer of the NT used such as:

Acts 24:15 (Young's) having hope toward God, which they themselves also wait for, that there is about to be a rising again of the dead, both of righteous and unrighteous;

Something that is "about to be" is not something that takes place 1900 years and counting to "be".

But this is going to fly in one eye and out the other.

abcdef · Mar 22, 2017

Locutus said:

There are only 2 resurrections, 1 Cor 15;23-28,23-24,

Jesus the first,

And those who are Christ's at His coming.

Then comes the end.

But you are teaching at least 3, Yes?

Jesus, the dest of Jeru?, and those at His coming, that's 3.

Paul shows only 2 .

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The resurrection of those who are Christ's, is yet to come, future.

A time when we will all stand before His throne in judgement.

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But there is no hope of a resurrection for you, only death with nothing after that, no eternal heaven with Jesus and the Father.

No last judgement, no eternal lake of fire.

No new heavens and earth after death, for you, already fulfilled.

Since all prophecy has already been fulfilled for you, you are not able to see beyond this place where you are now.

abcdef · Mar 22, 2017

Locutus said:

We didn't discuss about how you understood Rev 16:12-16 to be past, as in the dest of Jeru.

We did get off from this, a little bit.

I didn't get to understand what you were trying to say, how is this past? 70 ad?

Locutus · Mar 22, 2017

abcdef said:

Lot's of assumptions in there AB-One...

Dan 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

John 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Acts 24:15 (Young's) having hope toward God, which they themselves also wait for, that there is about to be a rising again of the dead, both of righteous and unrighteous.

Are we agreed that Daniel, Jesus in John's gospel and Paul in the book of Acts are all speaking of the same event?

abcdef · Mar 23, 2017

Locutus said:

This would be the first resurrection, when Jesus rose, the first fruits.

When Jesus ascended, He brought with Him the 144000 firstfruits Rev 14:4, the Multitude that no man can count (mnmc#), the 24 elders, etc., Eph 4:8-10, 8.

They are seen in heaven with Jesus in the Revelation.

They would be Adam, Abel, Noah, Abraham, Israel, Moses, David, John the Baptist, the thief on the cross, etc.

This would be the coming of Jesus for the Pentecost Kingdom (church), at the end of this material world, 1 Cor 15:23-28, 23-24.

Then it is the end, when death is destroyed, and the kingdom is delivered up to the Father (completed kingdom).

====================

The angel is asked in Dan 12:6, how long to the end of these wonders?

The answer was 3 1/2 times until the power of the holy people is scattered, v 7.

This shows the everything in the LAST VISION of Daniel should be completed by 70 ad.

That would include the resurrection of Jesus and the OT saints seen in v 2.

=====================

Yes, isn't that what we preach? The resurrection of the dead? The judgement of the souls of men and women?

We still preach it to this day 1900 years later.

And it is still about to happen, it is closer than ever now.

What is 1900 years, compared to the age of creation? Or the eternity of 10 billion years times 10 billion years times 10 billion years?

1900 years, Not even hardly a tick, just an instant, a moment, a mist, in eternity.

Forgotten, in the presence of God, every tear wiped away.

I would say no, from this point of view.

Ahwatukee · Mar 23, 2017

Hello John,

The 144,000 are a future group of male Israelites, the first fruits to God out of Israel, who will be sealed with the seal of God on their foreheads during the first 3 1/2 years of that seven year period, which hasn't begun yet. They don't come onto the world scene until after the church has been gathered, which also has not yet taken place.

The correct answer for the above is "a time, times and a half a time."

Time = 1 year, Times = two years and half a time = half a year

A time, times and a half a time = 3 1/2 years, which is referring to the last 3 1/2 of that last seven year period, none of which have yet taken place. The seven years will be initiated when that 1st seal is opened, the revealing of that antichrist, the rider on the white horse.

The above is complete conjecture, implied by you. For there is no scriptural proof to backup this claim.

abcdef · Mar 23, 2017

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Brother Ahwatukee,

Ahwatukee said:

After a lot of thinking, this number could be literal.

But if it is symbolic, it would symbolize perfection, as in the measurement of the new Jerusalem, Rev 21:17.

But it could be literal.......

The first fruits of Israel to God is the People from the OT.

The 144,000 can't be FUTURE Israelites and be the first fruits, because all the people from the OT are the First Israelites,

And the first fruits of the resurrection along with Jesus.

Any future Israelites would be after the ones from the 1st resurrection when Jesus rose.

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They are sealed against the 2nd death.

We as Christians are sealed by the Holy Spirit against the 2nd death.

Rev 7, Here we see the souls in heaven with Jesus, from the OT/1st resurrection being sealed because they could not have the indwelling (gift Acts 2:38) of the Holy Spirit like the souls of Christians in the Kingdom.

They have already died and been resurrected once, they won't be returning to planet earth again.

On your time line, they are sealed in heaven after the 6th seal, 1 1/2, 2 yrs? into the trib?.
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So they are born on earth, before the trib begins, they must be of age, not to be defiled by women, 18-30 yrs old?

they are on earth for 6 seals, 1 1/2, 2 yrs?

Then in heaven after that to get sealed,

then on earth for the 5th trumpet,

then back to heaven so that they can be born to the woman in Rev 12,

Then they are born, and go to heaven again.

Did I get that right?

If the church is gathered first, then the church is the first fruits.

If the church is both wild and natural branches, then they would be the first fruits, not people who come later.

Saved Israelites from the church would be the first fruits, not those who come later.

Sorry brother, but it hurts my hands and arms to type from RMI.

So if I cheat a little and abbreviate some times please forgive me, thanks.

I can see how someone might come to that conclusion......at first.

The numbers and amounts of time are symbolic.

The 7 times are not literal years.

Actually the 7 times are finished and over, just like the statue of the nations in Dan 2.

The 1st, 3 1/2ts is from Babylon until 70 ad. (Dan 12:7)

The 2nd, 3 1/2ts is from 70 ad until Israel is restored to control of Jerusalem.

The 2 witnesses in sack cloth,and woman of ch 12 in the wilderness, are the same time period, also known as the times of the gentiles.

The Antichrist is from the beast, "head" of the 4th beast/iron legs, Caesar and the BoR,

Eph 4:8-10, 8

Ahwatukee · Mar 23, 2017

No John, they are the first fruits of those who come out of the nation Israel, who recognize Jesus as their Messiah. They will have not defiled themselves with women, which makes them all males. And no lie will be found in their mouths. This group will be in contrast to the woman who gives birth to them, which is unbelieving Israel, who did not receive Jesus as Messiah. They will be here on earth during the first 3 1/2 years of that seven year period and will be caught up to God and his throne in the middle of the seven. The killing of the two witnesses and their resurrection, will take place right around the same time.

There is absolutely no doubt about it, that number of 144,000 is a literal number. Revelation 7 introduces two groups that will be here on the earth during the time of God's wrath:

The 144,000/Male Child

The great tribulation saints from every nation, tribe, people and language - Gentiles

The fact that you have John saying "I heard the number of those who were sealed, 144,000 from the twelve tribes of Israel and then a break-down of 12,000 per tribe, tells the reader that this is a literal number being used.

The other support that this is a literal number, is the fact that you have the number identified specifically as 144,000 and then the next group is a vast amount which no one can count. The first group are male Israelites who recognize Jesus as their Messiah. The second group are Gentiles, the great tribulation saints, who receive Christ as their savior during the time of God's wrath.

There is no reason to apply spiritual or symbolic meanings if the literal sense makes good sense. To do so, would be to force the issue and distort the scripture.

Pay attention John! The church is made of both Jew and Gentile, where there is neither Jew nor Gentile, for all are in Christ. The 144,000 are those who come to Christ after the church has been gathered and are therefore do not belong to the church. They are the first fruits out of Israel. The Male child is a collective name representing the 144,000. The meaning behind the woman/Israel giving birth to a Male Child is referring to those 144,000 who "come out of" Israel as the first fruits. The woman (unbelieving Israel), who gives birth to them, will flee out into the desert to a place prepared for her by God during that last 3 1/2 years where she will remain until the Lord returns to the earth to end the age.

Then you're just not paying attention John. The time, times and half a time (3 1/2 years) is the same as the 1260 days and the forty-two months mentioned in Revelation. The book of Revelation refers to the last seven years of the seventy sevens that were decreed upon Israel and Jerusalem found in Dan.9:24-27.

1260 days is used to describe the first 3 1/2 years of that seven year period when the two witnesses will prophecy.

In Rev.13, the 42 months is in reference to when the beast is given authority over the great tribulation saints to make war and conquer them, which is also that last 3 1/2 years.

The 1260 days, also referred to as "a time, times and half a time," is also referring to that last 3 1/2 years during which time the woman/Israel will be cared for out in the wilderness.

The last seven years is divided up into two 3 1/2 year periods, with the setting up of the abomination (Dan.9:27) being the middle mark of that last seven years. That is what the 1260 days, time, times and a half a time and 42 months in Revelation are referring to. They are only symbolic, because you have implied that they are and have thereby distorted their literal meanings.

abcdef · Mar 24, 2017

Ahwatukee said:

That definition would fit only those who were present at Pentecost and shortly following that day.

When does she give birth? Halfway through the trib,? Rev 12?

They are born in Rev 12, and then caught up to God as infants?
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But they have to be 18-30 years to start the trib. (not defiled by women)

So, they have to be, say 30 ? years old to start the trib.,

then go to heaven to be sealed, at the 6th seal,

then go to earth for the 5th trumpet,

then go to heaven so that they can be born in Rev 12, and caught up to heaven as soon as they are born.

All within 3 1/2 years?

====================

How is it unbelieving Israel? It doesn't say that.

You have said that this woman (Rev 12) symbolized Israel as in Jacob, and the stars, etc.

Was he unbelieving?

They are seen in heaven with Jesus, but not on earth.

The child in Rev 12, is Jesus,

But then you can't have Jesus being born in the middle of the trib can you?

That would disrupt your timeline wouldn't it?

That's why you have to change the meaning of the child.

The time line ends at the 7th trumpet.

The mnmc# never returns to this planet,

This is shown in Rev 7:16, "neither shall the sun light upon them, nor any heat."

There is no verse that says this.

Saints from the OT who were resurrected with Jesus.

If the number 144,000, is symbolic of perfection,

then what would the number 12,000, be symbolic of?

How high can you count?

A billion? A Trillion, A quadrillion?

Google?

Googleplex? (there is not that many molecules in the universe, I have heard it said)

Indeterminate? Infinite?

Just exactly how many is the number of the mnmc#.

Well, maybe it's just SYMBOLIC of a great number, yes?

Don't you think that there have been far more than that since the day of Pentecost, that recognize Jesus is the Messiah?

How would the 144000 be the first, when so many have come before them?

As far as coming out of unbelieving Israel, the Pentecost Kingdom (church), came out of unbelieving Israel, who had just killed Jesus.

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The Roman beast invaded Israel years before the birth of Jesus and John the Baptist,

That's when the real "trouble" started.

These are souls from the 1st resurrection when Jesus rose,

Gentiles would be included in that group.

We agree that some things written are literal, and some things written are symbolic,

We just disagree about where they are literal and where the are symbolic, basically, I think.

Well, yes, but it also says that there is neither male or female,

But we remain in our male and female bodies, so we are still male and female, in the flesh.

There is neither Jew nor gentile,

But we remain in our Israelite or gentile bodies, in the flesh.

What covenant will the 144,000 be under?

If the covenant of the Kingdom (church) is over and the "door is shut",

What covenant will they be under?

Another new covenant?

And what about everyone else who follows them?

How will they be saved without the covenant of Jesus' saving blood.

Repent and be baptized, but no good for them, the door is closed.

The first fruits of Israel is Jesus and the OT saints, Jacob/Israel is included.

It doesn't say that.

The best that you can do is to associate the 144000 with a whole group of people that rule with a rod of iron.

It's only an association, just like ALL who are in the Kingdom and rule with a rod of iron, as you have pointed out..

(Rod of iron, literal or symbolic?)

The male child is Jesus.

The woman in the wilderness Rev 12 is the times of the gentiles, 70 ad until 1967.

She is shown in the wilderness of the gentile nations.

The 3 1/2 ts end when Israel is restored to Jerusalem.

That happen in 1967 when Israel took control of Jerusalem and the times of the gentiles ended.

The 7 times are divided into 2, 3 1/2 time periods.

The 1st 3 1/2ts is from The declaration of the angel in Babylon (Dan 12

until the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 ad. (power scattered).

The 2nd, 3 1/2ts are from 70 ad until 1967, when Israel was restored to control of Jerusalem.

This would be equal to the time of the statue in Dan 2, which shows the rule of the gentiles over Israel until they are restored to Jerusalem, which equals the 7 times also.

But the two time periods are not equal in the time of men, that is why the time that God has set, doesn't always go according to the seasons of men.

This is why the time of the woman in the wilderness Rev 12, and the time of the 2 witnesses is expressed as days and months of equal time,

Because it shows that the 2 time periods take place at the same time, the woman and the 2 witnesses,

As opposed to the 1st, 3 1/2 ts that only lasted say 700 years.

.

There is nothing that says that, or even implies it.

The 70 weeks ended when Israel rejected the kingdom and it was given to the gentiles.

The 2 witnesses are the natural branches, from the rejection of the kingdom (temple measured), until 70 ad, when Israel witnesses in Jerusalem again, 1967.

Rome is given power over Israel form 70 ad until 1967. the 2nd, 3 1/2.

Is Israel restored to Jerusalem....at this present time....2017? do you think?

The AoD IS WHY Jerusalem was destroyed in 70 ad.

Why else would Jerusalem have been destroyed?

(scriptures only please)

Is the number 7 symbolic of complete?

Is the number 5 symbolic of division? 10 virgins, 5 and 5.

Does the beast symbolize Rome?

There are lots of symbolic meanings attached to the passages.

You must make certain things literal to fit your time line.

I mean, it would't be good to have Jesus born in the middle of the trib,

Would it?

........................

Locutus · Mar 26, 2017

abcdef said:

Of course it is past and tied in with the 66-70 AD war.

The problem I have with you AB-One is you changing definitions of words (such as last days and turn it into last centuries, or "about to be" as something that is "about to be" for 1900 years) and you ignoring commonalities in scripture.

These all speak of the same event:

Isa 2:19 And they shall go into the holes of the rocks, and into the caves of the earth, for fear of the LORD, and for the glory of his majesty, when he ariseth to shake terribly the earth.

Luke 23:30 Then shall they begin to say to the mountains, Fall on us; and to the hills, Cover us.

Rev 6:15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

Rev 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

So when Jesus uses motifs from Isaiah in Luke and John in revelation uses the very same motifs then we should accept that the event is in the time frame that Jesus said they would occur.

Same with the exact same motifs in the following:

Dan 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Act 24:15 (Young's Literal) having hope toward God, which they themselves also wait for, that there is about to be a rising again of the dead, both of righteous and unrighteous;

John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

John 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

These speak of the same events, but you are able to re-explain them away to mean something foreign to the context and plain meaning.

On to Rev 16:

Rev 16:6 For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and thou hast given them blood to drink; for they are worthy.

The avenging of the saints in the Rev 16:6 has certain time and people in mind:

Mat 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee...

Mat 23:36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.

So what continues on from Rev 16:6 is the fulfilling of the vengeance on 1st century Jerusalem for killing the saints and prophets,

While you want Rome to be the one that is guilty of killing the prophets scripture totally refutes your pet theory.

Luke 18:7 And shall not God avenge his own elect, which cry day and night unto him, though he bear long with them?

Luke 18:8 I tell you that he will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?

1900 years and counting I can tell you right now does not fit the definition of speedily.

Rev 16:12 And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared.

In around 67AD Vespasian and Titus his son brought the soldiers from four Roman Legions to Judea from the region of the river Euphrates through Syria to attack Judea.

Josephus in his book the Jewish Wars writes of Titus:

"...were two thousand men, chosen out of the armies at Alexandria. There followed him also three thousand drawn from those that guarded the river Euphrates"

The troops that Titus took with were drawn largely from the the region of the Euphrates.

Tacitus writes that Antiochus of Commagene (a king) whose dominions were located on the Euphrates sent a contingent to the war. Sohemus (another king) whose territories were in the same region sent a force to work with Titus.

The above fulfills John's imagery in Rev 16:12 remarkably well, tie that in with what Jesus said and John in Rev 6:15-16 and we're cooking with gas.

psalm6819 · Mar 26, 2017

Surely I come quickly. Amen, even so, come, Lord Jesus.

abcdef · Mar 26, 2017

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Hi Locutus,

Locutus said:

There is a future resurrection, you say that it is past, with no future resurrection, Yes?

Yes, 70 ad

I do, up to the point of the 6/7th seal.

This shows the first resurrection of Jesus and the rest of the OT saints, fulfilled by 70 ad (33 ad).

Give me an exact date of when this resurrection at the dest of Jeru occurred.

The resurrection, "at His coming", which is yet to happen.

This is about exactly how many resurrections there are.

1 Cor 15:23-28.

1. Jesus' resurrection, the first fruits.

2. Those who are Christ's at His coming, the 2nd resurrection.

3. Death is destroyed (also seen in Rev 20:14-15).

4. The kingdom is delivered up to the Father.

5. Jesus submits to the Father to be all in all.

There are only 2 resurrections shown.

Where does a resurrection at the dest of Jeru fit into this passage?

Isn't that 3 ?

Or, are there no more resurrections to take place?

========================================================

Revelation was written after the dest of Jeru.

Rome certainly qualifies, having killed Israelites for over a hundred years by then.

When they invaded Israel, in the rebellion of the Maccabees, the infants of Bethlehem, John the Baptist, Jesus, the Apostles, and countless others, Rome killed them all, their blood was on Rome's hands (Herod,Pilate).

Rome would continue to attack Israel for the next 1900 years.

The fall of Rome? (8th head lives until perdition, spiritual destruction)

Jerusalem, yes, but it's not connected to this passage of Rev chs 15-16.

The 5 th vial is poured out on the "seat of the beast", the seat of the Roman beast (4th, iron legs) is the city of Rome.

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The 6th vial dries up the Euphrates River.

Literal?, didn't happen, not an obstacle for the Roman armies.

They go to the valley of Armageddon for the great battle, not 70 ad Jerusalem.

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Why don't you explain to me how the 7th vial is ONLY the dest of Jeru?

Israel is guilty of the blood of Jesus also and foremost,

But Rome (Pilate) did sentence Jesus to death, even if it was to the consent and urging of the Priests.

Rome nailed Jesus to the cross.

Rome kept the people from helping Jesus.

I would say that Rome shared in the blame.

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Remember, that nothing could be written against Rome under penalty of death,

That is why it is symbolized.

If it was Jerusalem (in Rev), they would say Jerusalem, who would care?

The Romans would have loved the prophecy against Jerusalem.

Lk 18:1, And He spake a parable unto them to this end, that men ought always to pray, and not to faint;"

This is mainly about prayer, how to pray, and God hearing our prayers.

About the last sentence, it's exact time is indeterminate, as far as I can tell.

It would depend on the evaluation of the term "when the Son of Man cometh".

At Jerusalem in 70 ad? or at the 2nd resurrection, yet to come?

Since the context is about prayer, I would think that "speedily" would refer to how God answers prayers.

Completely dried up?

The Romans had lots of foreign armies in their ranks.

Locutus · Mar 26, 2017

Heb 9:8 KJV) The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing:

Even though we know Christ did enter in, John says in the book of revelation:

Rev 15:8 And the temple was filled with smoke from the glory of God, and from his power; and no man was able to enter into the temple, till the seven plagues of the seven angels were fulfilled.

The "first tabernacle" was still standing when Hebrews was written but not for long.

Therefore until the old temple was removed in the war of 66-70 AD "no man was able to enter into the temple", men have been entering the temple ever since the war.

Locutus · Mar 26, 2017

abcdef said:

Nice try...

Rev 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

Luke 18:8 I tell you that he will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?

You've admitted that this refers to 70 AD:

Rev 6:15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

Rev 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

So how do you justify divorcing the avenging of the blood of Rev 6:10 to 1900 years and counting into the future - you've just arbitrarily ripped it from it's context

whirlingmerc · Mar 27, 2017

The bridegroom cometh, but he makes the bride ready

https://www.slideshare.net/MichaelScaman/hosea-and-his-family-a-portrait-of-grace

abcdef · Mar 27, 2017

Locutus said:

Thanks

This happens before the dest of Jeur.

In Lk 18, the passage is about prayer, the word "speedily", is used to describe how God answers prayers.

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Jesus comes with clouds of Roman gentile armies and destroys Jerusalem by 70 ad.

Jesus also comes for the kingdom at the resurrection of His coming, 1 Cor 15:23-28, yet to happen.

I'm going for the 2nd resurrection, at His coming.

But I can see how it could go either way.

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Oh, they both use the word "avenge", big deal, that doesn't link Lk 18:8, to Rev 6:10.

The link will have to be more substantial.

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Confirming, fulfilled by 70 ad.

The 5th seal happens before the destruction of Jerusalem.

Th 6th seal, shows the dest of Jerusalem, we agree on that, I think.

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The 5th seal shows who?

Who are the souls, seen in heaven, at the altar, BEFORE the dest of Jeru?

They can only be from the 1st resurrection, when Jesus rose.

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Locutus · Mar 27, 2017

abcdef said:

The link is established "elect":

Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

(Mat 24:31 KJV) And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Mat 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

Luke 18:7 And shall not God avenge his own elect, which cry day and night unto him, though he bear long with them?

Luke 18:8 I tell you that he will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?

The seals are the destruction of Jerusalem.

You failed to answer the above.

That's your conjecture, there were no others resurrected when Jesus rose, certainly not the 144K as they had not been called to the gospel:

James 1:1 James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered (Greek - diaspora) abroad, greeting.

How can Jesus resurrect those that were still hearing the gospel?

1 Pet 1:1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered (Greek - diaspora) throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,

1 Pet 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

The diaspora are the tribes of Israel. Therefore the elect were a 1st century "phenomena".

abcdef · Mar 27, 2017

Locutus said:

The elect is Israel.

Some say that v 31, refers to the day of Pentecost, Act 2:5.

You are saying that v 31 is the dest of Jeru?

Israel was scattered, not gathered.

You want the dest of Jeru to be a resurrection, but 1 Cor 15:23-29, 23-24, shows that is not.

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V 31 He gathers Israel, after the times of the gentiles, 5th trumpet.

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The dest of Jerusalem and the beginning of the times of the gentiles.

Jesus told them that Jeru would be destroyed and trampled underfoot by gentiles,

The only question was,

How long until the times of the gentiles end, and Israel is restored to Jerusalem? (1967)

Ok, This shows that He answers the prayers of Israel.

This is how He answers the prayers of Israel, speedily.

Again, dest of Jeru? or resurrection?

The 6th seal.

Th 5th seal cannot be the destruction, because the souls ask, how long until the dest (avenge)?

Therefore the dest could not have happened yet, because they ask, how long until then?

I thought I did, but we'll try again.

The answer to the 5th seal, is the 6th seal, that is the dest of Jerusalem, not something 1900 years away.

Eph 4:8, says that when Jesus rose from the dead He brought a "host" with Him (NAS).

I don't see anywhere, where they are from the gospel era.

They are OT saints who rose with Jesus.

If this is pre dest of Jeru., how is it the 12 tribes are scattered?

I thought that it was after the dest of Jeru that Israel was scattered.

The resurrection of the Pentecost Kingdom (church), has not happened yet.

Only the OT saints with Jesus.

.

Yes, Israel is the elect, the natural branches and wild branches.

There are still the elect today.

The word "elect" is not exclusive to the 1st century.

Locutus · Mar 27, 2017

I can see this is a waste of time...

BEHOLD, THE BRIDEGROOM COMETH

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