BEHOLD the rapture, the resurrection of the just

[shroom2]

And everyone that comes to faith in Jesus is His child, a member of the elect....right?

Everyone who acts on Romans 10:9 is born again, a Son of God. What we have now, as Christians, with the new birth, was not available when Jesus walked the earth. It took his perfect sinless life, and sacrifice, to make it available. This was part of the mystery, that the gentiles can be fellow heirs.

Eph 3:
2) If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:
3) How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,
4) Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)
5) Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;
6) That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:

 

[4runner]

Everyone who acts on Romans 10:9 is born again, a Son of God. What we have now, as Christians, with the new birth, was not available when Jesus walked the earth. It took his perfect sinless life, and sacrifice, to make it available. This was part of the mystery, that the gentiles can be fellow heirs.

Eph 3:
2) If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:
3) How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,
4) Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)
5) Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;
6) That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:

I certanly agree with this, but that doesnt change the fact that the bible clearly teaches Jesus will return immediately after the tribulation to gather the elect, which includes the Church, and to believe in the pretrib rapture takes a willful blindness to what Jesus Himself taught.

Also Paul made it very plain that the rapture was post trib. Moreover the rapture is not the big deal people make it out to be. It is about the resurrection of the just. The fact that a few minute amount of believers will be left standing and get translated, was not the point Paul was making, it was a side note.

 

[shroom2]

I certanly agree with this, but that doesnt change the fact that the bible clearly teaches Jesus will return immediately after the tribulation to gather the elect, which includes the Church, and to believe in the pretrib rapture takes a willful blindness to what Jesus Himself taught.

Also Paul made it very plain that the rapture was post trib. Moreover the rapture is not the big deal people make it out to be. It is about the resurrection of the just. The fact that a few minute amount of believers will be left standing and get translated, was not the point Paul was making, it was a side note.

I disagree with you. Yes, the bible does clearly teach that " Jesus will return immediately after the tribulation to gather the elect". It says that in Matthew 24:30. He came to Israel, he was speaking to Israel. Christianity did not exist yet. The new birth was not available yet. Jesus could not have been addressing Christians because they did not exist. This whole timeperiod in which we are now living was not known about. The church distinctly began on the day of pentecost, and it will have a distinct end, at the rapture. Then God will resume His program for Israel. That's when the trib will be. We won't be here. The bible plainly says in the church epistles that we are saved from wrath. It does not say anything like that in the OT or the gospels. In fact it's just the opposite. Israel WILL go through the trib. 1 Cor 15 and 1 Thes 4 are not talking about Christs return TO earth after the trib, but an event that will happen before that. Christ will return to gather his church before the trib.

 

[peterT]

I disagree with you. Yes, the bible does clearly teach that " Jesus will return immediately after the tribulation to gather the elect". It says that in Matthew 24:30. He came to Israel, he was speaking to Israel. Christianity did not exist yet. The new birth was not available yet. Jesus could not have been addressing Christians because they did not exist. This whole timeperiod in which we are now living was not known about. The church distinctly began on the day of pentecost, and it will have a distinct end, at the rapture. Then God will resume His program for Israel. That's when the trib will be. We won't be here. The bible plainly says in the church epistles that we are saved from wrath. It does not say anything like that in the OT or the gospels. In fact it's just the opposite. Israel WILL go through the trib. 1 Cor 15 and 1 Thes 4 are not talking about Christs return TO earth after the trib, but an event that will happen before that. Christ will return to gather his church before the trib.

“came to Israel, he was speaking to Israel”

He spoke to the woman that had faith and she was not of Israel, if you have faith you are classed as one of Gods children

You have to hang on to this “Jesus was speaking to Israel” and not to us, because that’s all you have go to help with your pre-trib delusion.

NO verses NO bible story’s just wishful thinking. It must be a pre-trib coming because “Jesus was speaking to Israel”. It must be a pre-trib coming because “The church did not began till the day of Pentecost” and so no and so no. you have NOTHING just wishful thinking. delusion.

Take another look, a different view of the resurrection of the just immediately after the tribulation.

Revelation 11:11 And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.14 The second woe is past; [and], behold, the third woe cometh quickly.15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there.

The two end time prophets are killed by the beast at the end of the great tribulation,

It just happens that the two end time prophets are razed from the dead.

It just happens that the two end time prophets hear a voce saying come up hither.

It just happens that the two end time prophets are razed in the clouds

It just happens that the two end time prophets are razed at the sound of the last trumpet.

They are not just razed from the dead, but are resurrected into the air in a cloud at the last trumpet.


1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Corinthians 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

Mark 13:26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.

Revelation 10:7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

The two end time witnesses are killed by the beast at the end of the great tribulation, razed from the dead at the last trumpet, in the clouds after hearing the voice 17 Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

 

[4runner]

I disagree with you. Yes, the bible does clearly teach that " Jesus will return immediately after the tribulation to gather the elect". It says that in Matthew 24:30. He came to Israel, he was speaking to Israel. Christianity did not exist yet. The new birth was not available yet. Jesus could not have been addressing Christians because they did not exist. This whole timeperiod in which we are now living was not known about. The church distinctly began on the day of pentecost, and it will have a distinct end, at the rapture. Then God will resume His program for Israel. That's when the trib will be. We won't be here. The bible plainly says in the church epistles that we are saved from wrath. It does not say anything like that in the OT or the gospels. In fact it's just the opposite. Israel WILL go through the trib. 1 Cor 15 and 1 Thes 4 are not talking about Christs return TO earth after the trib, but an event that will happen before that. Christ will return to gather his church before the trib.

Now where in the bible does it say anything about the church being removed from Earth before the tribulation. You keep bringing up 1st Corinthians 15 and 1st Thess 4 as some type of proof of a imaginary pretrib rapture. Show me in either of those two passages where it say this is a pretrib event. I can (if you will hear it) show you that those very passages prove the post trib rapture, and disprove the pre trib.

Will you 1st show me where in those passages it says anything about the translation of the living being pretrib, and then 2ndly let me show you why they say within the text itself that it must be post trib?

 

[shroom2]

“came to Israel, he was speaking to Israel”

He spoke to the woman that had faith and she was not of Israel, if you have faith you are classed as one of Gods children

You have to hang on to this “Jesus was speaking to Israel” and not to us, because that’s all you have go to help with your pre-trib delusion.

NO verses NO bible story’s just wishful thinking. It must be a pre-trib coming because “Jesus was speaking to Israel”. It must be a pre-trib coming because “The church did not began till the day of Pentecost” and so no and so no. you have NOTHING just wishful thinking. delusion.

I am not "hanging on" to anything, except God's Word. When do you believe the Christian church, the body of Christ, began? Because you do not agree with me, you play fast and loose with derision and false accusations. Are you capable of having a discussion?

Take another look, a different view of the resurrection of the just immediately after the tribulation.

Revelation 11:11 And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.14 The second woe is past; [and], behold, the third woe cometh quickly.15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there.

The two end time prophets are killed by the beast at the end of the great tribulation,

It just happens that the two end time prophets are razed from the dead.

It just happens that the two end time prophets hear a voce saying come up hither.

It just happens that the two end time prophets are razed in the clouds

It just happens that the two end time prophets are razed at the sound of the last trumpet.

They are not just razed from the dead, but are resurrected into the air in a cloud at the last trumpet.

All that is referring to the two witnesses, not to the body of Christ.

1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Corinthians 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

Yes, those verses refer to the rapture. They are written in the church epistles, books of the bible written to the church.

Mark 13:26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.

Jesus is speaking to Israel, and the events that will happen when He returns to the earth to fight Armageddon and then set up the millennial kingdom. That will happen at the end of the trib.

Revelation 10:7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

The two end time witnesses are killed by the beast at the end of the great tribulation, razed from the dead at the last trumpet, in the clouds after hearing the voice 17 Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Again, the two witnesses being raised has no relationship whatsoever to either the rapture or the first resurrection. You are putting together sections of scripture that have nothing to do with each other.

 

[shroom2]

Now where in the bible does it say anything about the church being removed from Earth before the tribulation.

It says in at least two places that we will be saved from the wrath.

You keep bringing up 1st Corinthians 15 and 1st Thess 4 as some type of proof of a imaginary pretrib rapture.

It is not imaginary, it will happen.

Show me in either of those two passages where it say this is a pretrib event.

The dead Christians will be raised, and those that are alive will meet the Lord in the air. This is different that when Christ returns TO the earth at the end of the trib. At that time He will be returning with his armies, as king of kings and lord of lords. And again, Christians are to be saved from the wrath to come. In the gospels, people were asking for signs, and Jesus gave them specific signs. There are no signs that will precede the rapture. It will happen in a moment, in the blink of an eye. We are simply told to wait for the lord, not to look for signs.

I can (if you will hear it) show you that those very passages prove the post trib rapture, and disprove the pre trib.

I will read what you have to say.

Will you 1st show me where in those passages it says anything about the translation of the living being pretrib, and then 2ndly let me show you why they say within the text itself that it must be post trib?

You're up.....

 

[4runner]

It says in at least two places that we will be saved from the wrath.

1st Thessalonians 1:10 And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which has delivered us from the wrath to come.
To get a pretrib view out of this verse you would first have to make two assumptions, neither of which are scriptural. #1 That the wrath to come is the tribulation, and # 2 that the deliverance from this wrath is the rapture. As for the first assumption, you can believe the wrath to come to be many things. You can believe it to be a seven year tribulation, you can believe it to be the three and a half years of great tribulation, you can believe it to be the judgment of God when He separates the sheep from the goats, you can believe that it is Hell, or the lake of fire. As for me, I believe it is the judgment of God, when Jesus destroys the wicked with fire, which occurs at the post trib second coming, and later in this book I will prove as much biblically. What you can not do is, arbitrarily proclaim that the wrath equals the seven year tribulation period. The second assumption, needed to be made is that the deliverance from the wrath is the rapture, which is completely false. The scripture says that He ''has delivered us'' from the wrath to come past tense, the rapture is still in the future. Therefore the only way scripture could possibly refer to the rapture is if it read, who ''will deliver us'' from the wrath to come future tense. Conclusion, both assumption are unbiblical. The wrath is the judgment of God upon the wicked and the deliverance is the death of Jesus on the cross. We are not delivered from the tribulation by the rapture, but from judgment by the cross. That is the true meaning of this verse.



1st Thessalonians 5:9 For God has not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ.
Once again to get the pretrib rapture from this verse you must assume that the wrath is the tribulation, and our salvation is the rapture. Our Salvation is Jesus Christ, not the rapture, and we are saved from Hell, not the tribulation. This verse has been grossly misrepresented by the pretrib supporters.

Let me ask this, if our salvation is from the tribulation, what about the tribulational saints? If they are saved by the same blood of Christ as we are, then why are they not ''raptured'' the moment of their salvations, why are they appointed to wrath? If we are not appointed to wrath then no believer of any age is appointed to wrath. It is obvious that this verse has nothing to do with the rapture, tribulation ect...

The dead Christians will be raised, and those that are alive will meet the Lord in the air. This is different that when Christ returns TO the earth at the end of the trib. At that time He will be returning with his armies, as king of kings and lord of lords. And again, Christians are to be saved from the wrath to come. In the gospels, people were asking for signs, and Jesus gave them specific signs. There are no signs that will precede the rapture. It will happen in a moment, in the blink of an eye. We are simply told to wait for the lord, not to look for signs.

Actually many times Jesus tells us to watch. Here is just one where He really stresses it

Mark 13:37And what I say unto you I say unto all, Watch.
This says exactly the opposite of what you said. you said to wait, not to watch, but Jesus says to watch.

I will read what you have to say.


You're up.....

1st Corinthians 15:51-53
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; we shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in a twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
It is universally understood that this is referring to the event known as the rapture. We see in the passage that it tell us when it will happen ''at the last trump''. We also see in Matthew 24:29-31 that there will be a trumpet sounded after the tribulation has ended.
Matthew 24:29-31
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of heaven shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds from one end of heaven to the other.
If the rapture is at the last trump, which we know it is because God's word says it does. Then the rapture can not be before the trumpet sounded in Matthew 24, which is sounded after the tribulation is over.



1st Thessalonians 4:15-17
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend with a shout, with the voice of an arch angel, and with the trump of God: and the dead will rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall ever be with the Lord.
Verse 15 tells us when the event that takes place in verses 16 and 17 take place so when does verse 15 say this occurs?
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
So the rapture take place at the coming of the Lord which we both agree is after the Tribulation.


Lastly take note that the resurrection of the just precedes the rapture so lets check out one more passage that tell us when the resurrection is.
1st Corinthians 15:20-23
20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward that they are Christ's at his coming.
We will all be resurrected and there will be an order. Jesus is first, that has already happen, and then those that are Christ's, those that have been saved (Christians) at His coming. There is no mention of a resurrection of the righteous between Jesus' resurrection and his second coming. As a matter of fact it says that those that belong to Christ will be resurrection at the post trib second coming. We saw in 1st Thessalonians that the dead are raised before the living are raptured. So if the resurrection of the dead in Christ is at the post trib second coming then the rapture has to be as well.




So there you have it. I believe this is conclusive evidence for the post trib rapture, and I pray you will consider this truth.



Have you ever been kicked, punched, or hit in the stomach when you were not expecting it? That is what is going to happen to the pretrib believer. The tribulation is going to hit them like an unexpected kick to the gut. If you have to get kicked in the gut, you would at least like to be warned first right? Well, the fact is Christians will have to go through the tribulation, the Bible is clear on this fact. There really should not be any more debate about it. So here is your warning, brace yourself, The Sword is Coming.

 

[shroom2]

1st Thessalonians 1:10 And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which has delivered us from the wrath to come.
To get a pretrib view out of this verse you would first have to make two assumptions, neither of which are scriptural. #1 That the wrath to come is the tribulation, and # 2 that the deliverance from this wrath is the rapture. As for the first assumption, you can believe the wrath to come to be many things. You can believe it to be a seven year tribulation, you can believe it to be the three and a half years of great tribulation, you can believe it to be the judgment of God when He separates the sheep from the goats, you can believe that it is Hell, or the lake of fire. As for me, I believe it is the judgment of God, when Jesus destroys the wicked with fire, which occurs at the post trib second coming, and later in this book I will prove as much biblically. What you can not do is, arbitrarily proclaim that the wrath equals the seven year tribulation period. The second assumption, needed to be made is that the deliverance from the wrath is the rapture, which is completely false. The scripture says that He ''has delivered us'' from the wrath to come past tense, the rapture is still in the future. Therefore the only way scripture could possibly refer to the rapture is if it read, who ''will deliver us'' from the wrath to come future tense. Conclusion, both assumption are unbiblical. The wrath is the judgment of God upon the wicked and the deliverance is the death of Jesus on the cross. We are not delivered from the tribulation by the rapture, but from judgment by the cross. That is the true meaning of this verse.

That is the way you understand it. I do not believe you are correct. I believe "wrath" does refer to the tribulation.

Mat 3:7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?

Luke 21:23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.

1st Thessalonians 5:9 For God has not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ.
Once again to get the pretrib rapture from this verse you must assume that the wrath is the tribulation, and our salvation is the rapture.

I believe the wrath is the tribulation. Our salvation is not the rapture, our salvation is being saved from the second death by believing on what Jesus Christ accomplished for us. But we will also be saved from the coming trib.

Our Salvation is Jesus Christ, not the rapture, and we are saved from Hell, not the tribulation. This verse has been grossly misrepresented by the pretrib supporters.

Let me ask this, if our salvation is from the tribulation, what about the tribulational saints?

As noted, our salvation is not from the trib, but from death.

If they are saved by the same blood of Christ as we are, then why are they not ''raptured'' the moment of their salvations, why are they appointed to wrath?

Because they are not saved by Christ in the same manner as we are. The new birth, as we have available to us today, will not be available. There will be believers after we leave, but they will not be Christian. The age of grace will end.

If we are not appointed to wrath then no believer of any age is appointed to wrath. It is obvious that this verse has nothing to do with the rapture, tribulation ect...

I do not see how you can come to that conclusion. Obviously there will be people going through the wrath. Just not Christians.

Actually many times Jesus tells us to watch. Here is just one where He really stresses it

Mark 13:37And what I say unto you I say unto all, Watch.
This says exactly the opposite of what you said. you said to wait, not to watch, but Jesus says to watch.

He is not talking to us. He is talking to Israel. Christians did not yet exist.

1st Corinthians 15:51-53
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; we shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in a twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
It is universally understood that this is referring to the event known as the rapture. We see in the passage that it tell us when it will happen ''at the last trump''. We also see in Matthew 24:29-31 that there will be a trumpet sounded after the tribulation has ended.
Matthew 24:29-31
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of heaven shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds from one end of heaven to the other.
If the rapture is at the last trump, which we know it is because God's word says it does. Then the rapture can not be before the trumpet sounded in Matthew 24, which is sounded after the tribulation is over.

Different trumpets.

1st Thessalonians 4:15-17
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend with a shout, with the voice of an arch angel, and with the trump of God: and the dead will rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall ever be with the Lord.
Verse 15 tells us when the event that takes place in verses 16 and 17 take place so when does verse 15 say this occurs?
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
So the rapture take place at the coming of the Lord which we both agree is after the Tribulation.

The "coming of the Lord" there is not referring to the second coming when he returns TO the earth, it is referring to when he comes for the church.

Lastly take note that the resurrection of the just precedes the rapture

No, the resurrection of the just does not precede the rapture. The dead in Christ being raised in 1 Thes 4:16 is not the resurrection.

so lets check out one more passage that tell us when the resurrection is.
1st Corinthians 15:20-23
20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward that they are Christ's at his coming.
We will all be resurrected and there will be an order. Jesus is first, that has already happen, and then those that are Christ's, those that have been saved (Christians) at His coming. There is no mention of a resurrection of the righteous between Jesus' resurrection and his second coming. As a matter of fact it says that those that belong to Christ will be resurrection at the post trib second coming. We saw in 1st Thessalonians that the dead are raised before the living are raptured. So if the resurrection of the dead in Christ is at the post trib second coming then the rapture has to be as well.

The resurrection of the dead in Christ is not at the post trib second coming. It will precede it. It will precede the entire trib.

So there you have it. I believe this is conclusive evidence for the post trib rapture, and I pray you will consider this truth.

Thanks for the explanation, but I do not believe you are right.

Have you ever been kicked, punched, or hit in the stomach when you were not expecting it? That is what is going to happen to the pretrib believer. The tribulation is going to hit them like an unexpected kick to the gut. If you have to get kicked in the gut, you would at least like to be warned first right? Well, the fact is Christians will have to go through the tribulation, the Bible is clear on this fact. There really should not be any more debate about it. So here is your warning, brace yourself, The Sword is Coming.

Not to be offensive, but that is nothing but conjecture on your part. I believe you are wrong, and that the bible teaches Christians will not go through the trib. As noted in earlier posts, Christ says in Matt that at the second coming, the goats (bad people) will be taken away, as in the days of Noah. At the rapture described in 1 Cor 15 and 1 Thes 4, Christians will be taken away. They are different events.

God bless.

 

[4runner]

Shroom, all I can say is I showed you the truth with scripture, but you decided to believe what makes you feel good instead of God.

there is no need to continue this conversation.

Pray this prayer.....

If I believe anything falsely correct me.
If I have processed your word correctly affirm me.
If I distrust anyone wrongly show me.
If I trust anyone who means me harm warn me.
My prayer is to grow in the knowledge of you, your love, your word, and in your pure truth.
I want to love others as you love them
I want to be the man you have called me to be.
I want to be a witness for you , the kind you need to grow your Kingdom.
Most of all I just want to sit at your feet and behold you glory, your beauty, your Majesty.

 

[shroom2]

Shroom, all I can say is I showed you the truth with scripture, but you decided to believe what makes you feel good instead of God.

there is no need to continue this conversation.

Pray this prayer.....

If I believe anything falsely correct me.
If I have processed your word correctly affirm me.
If I distrust anyone wrongly show me.
If I trust anyone who means me harm warn me.
My prayer is to grow in the knowledge of you, your love, your word, and in your pure truth.
I want to love others as you love them
I want to be the man you have called me to be.
I want to be a witness for you , the kind you need to grow your Kingdom.
Most of all I just want to sit at your feet and behold you glory, your beauty, your Majesty.

May I suggest you pray it as well.

I do not believe what makes me feel good. I believe the bible, God's Word.

Why whenever there is a disagreement do people always accuse each other of not believing the truth?

It's sad that there is never any resolution when people disagree on spiritual things. I am convinced I understand the truth, and you are convinced you understand the truth. I have backed my view with scripture, and you believe you have backed your view with scripture. Obviously, one of us is wrong.

...see you at the rapture.

 

[4runner]

May I suggest you pray it as well.

I pray it every day

I do not believe what makes me feel good. I believe the bible, God's Word.

God's word opposes the false pretrib teaching.

 

[shroom2]

I pray it every day

God's word opposes the false pretrib teaching.

To you, in your misunderstanding, it does. For me, it does not.

(see, we're both doing it. Underhanded insinuated insults because we each think the other is wrong. I won't do it again. Hopefully...heh)

God bless, I'm done here.

 

[peterT]

When Christ spoke those things, nobody knew about this time in which we are now living. This church age was not known about, it was "hid in God". Christ was talking about, and to, Israel, who WILL go through the trib. We'll be gone before the events Christ is speaking about in Matt occur.

“he was speaking to Israel. Christianity did not exist yet. The new birth was not available yet. Jesus could not have been addressing Christians because they did not exist. This whole timeperiod in which we are now living was not known about”.

Who is Jesus talking about here to the Jews or the Christians ?

Matt13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

Who is Jesus talking about here to the Jews or the Christians ?
Matt13:47 Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a net, that was cast into the sea, and gathered of every kind:
48 Which, when it was full, they drew to shore, and sat down, and gathered the good into vessels, but cast the bad away.
49 So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,


Who is Jesus talking about here to the Jews or the Christians ?

Matt25:1 Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom.2 And five of them were wise, and five [were] foolish.

You're up.....

 

[shroom2]

“he was speaking to Israel. Christianity did not exist yet. The new birth was not available yet. Jesus could not have been addressing Christians because they did not exist. This whole timeperiod in which we are now living was not known about”.

Who is Jesus talking about here to the Jews or the Christians ?

Matt13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

Who is Jesus talking about here to the Jews or the Christians ?
Matt13:47 Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a net, that was cast into the sea, and gathered of every kind:
48 Which, when it was full, they drew to shore, and sat down, and gathered the good into vessels, but cast the bad away.
49 So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,


Who is Jesus talking about here to the Jews or the Christians ?

Matt25:1 Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom.2 And five of them were wise, and five [were] foolish.

You're up.....

Jews, Jews, and Jews. The church, the body of Christ, did not exist yet.

 

[peterT]

Jews, Jews, and Jews. The church, the body of Christ, did not exist yet.

Just last week you quoted me the ten virgins as pre-trib. You have changed you doctrine 3 times since I met you.

You are a layer and a deceiver trying to trick us and the brethren, it’s just smoke and mirrors, and it will not work on Gods sheep that hear His voice.

You say you stand on God’s word and yet you don’t.

This is what you stand on.

1 WordsOFtheFlesh 4:19 Jews, Jews, and Jews. The church, the body of Christ, did not exist yet.

2 FolishWordsOfMan3:16 I believe you are wrong, and that the bible teaches Christians will not go through the trib

2 SmokeAndMirrors 16:15 Because they are not saved by Christ in the same manner as we are.

Delusion 2:35 Israel WILL go through the trib.

2 DesignedByYou 18:36 Jesus was sent to Israel. It is noted several places in the bible. As a result of what He did through his sinless life and sacrifice, this time in which we are now living was made available. Early on, even the apostles (Peter) was astounded that Cornelius, a gentile, could get born again. It took awhile for the Jews to accept that gentiles were welcome.

No bible story’s saying Jesus is coming before the tribulation

No Parables saying Jesus is coming before the tribulation

No bible verses saying Jesus is coming before the tribulation, just words of the flesh.

This is you this is you Bible, and this is what you stand on, words of the flesh.

You have twisted Gods word, you Have rejected all the word we have given you. And in return you have given us nothing but YOUR interpretation of scratcher, just words of the flesh.


Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.

 

[4runner]

Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.

I believe shroom to be a godly person. However i cannot deny the fact that you have to be willfully blind to not see that the pretrib rapture is false, and the main reason that someone would blind themselves to the truth of the post trib rapture is because they do indeed savior the things of man (escapism) over the things of God (endurance)

 

[peterT]

I believe shroom to be a godly person. However i cannot deny the fact that you have to be willfully blind to not see that the pretrib rapture is false, and the main reason that someone would blind themselves to the truth of the post trib rapture is because they do indeed savior the things of man (escapism) over the things of God (endurance)

Saul became Paul. Maybe 4runner maybe.

 

[shroom2]

Just last week you quoted me the ten virgins as pre-trib. You have changed you doctrine 3 times since I met you.

You are a layer and a deceiver trying to trick us and the brethren, it’s just smoke and mirrors, and it will not work on Gods sheep that hear His voice.

You say you stand on God’s word and yet you don’t.

This is what you stand on.

1 WordsOFtheFlesh 4:19 Jews, Jews, and Jews. The church, the body of Christ, did not exist yet.

2 FolishWordsOfMan3:16 I believe you are wrong, and that the bible teaches Christians will not go through the trib

2 SmokeAndMirrors 16:15 Because they are not saved by Christ in the same manner as we are.

Delusion 2:35 Israel WILL go through the trib.

2 DesignedByYou 18:36 Jesus was sent to Israel. It is noted several places in the bible. As a result of what He did through his sinless life and sacrifice, this time in which we are now living was made available. Early on, even the apostles (Peter) was astounded that Cornelius, a gentile, could get born again. It took awhile for the Jews to accept that gentiles were welcome.

No bible story’s saying Jesus is coming before the tribulation

No Parables saying Jesus is coming before the tribulation

No bible verses saying Jesus is coming before the tribulation, just words of the flesh.

This is you this is you Bible, and this is what you stand on, words of the flesh.

You have twisted Gods word, you Have rejected all the word we have given you. And in return you have given us nothing but YOUR interpretation of scratcher, just words of the flesh.


Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.

Take an Advil and simmer down, Petey.

I have never changed what I have said. I have never mentioned the ten virgins on this forum. Search for it if you want.

Everything (1 through 5, if you could count) you quoted me on is true. The Christian church did not exist until the day of Pentecost, Christians will not go through the trib, Jews will go through the trib, and Jesus DID come to Israel. Look it up.

Sorry if I offended you, but there are better ways to discuss things than cursing me to hell and back.

 

[shroom2]

I believe shroom to be a godly person. However i cannot deny the fact that you have to be willfully blind to not see that the pretrib rapture is false, and the main reason that someone would blind themselves to the truth of the post trib rapture is because they do indeed savior the things of man (escapism) over the things of God (endurance)

Those are some pretty absolute generalizations you're making, 4runner.

I could make the same assumptions about you. I see that the pretrib rapture is the truth and am sad for you that you cannot.

Time will tell.

God bless.