Benefits of Speaking, Praying, and Singing in Tongues
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Yes, all born again believers receive the gift of holy Spirit. What are the manifestations of that new creation within you? 1) word of wisdom; 2) word of knowledge; 3) faith; 4) gifts of healings; 5) working of miracles; 6) prophecy 7) discerning of spirits; 8) tongues; 9) interpretation of tongues - 1 Cor. 12:8-10
manifestation - Greek word - phanerosis - making visible or observable; exhibit . . . i.e. detectable by the five senses
Say someone has the chicken pox - how do you know they have the chicken pox? It is exhibited by pimple like sores. We cannot see the virus that causes the chicken pox but we know when someone has the chicken pox by the manifestation of the sores
What happens a lot of the time is that people think tongues in itself is a gift and only select individuals receive that gift - but 1 Cor. 12:7 says it is a manifestation of the Spirit given to every man (believer, i.e. one who has received the gift of holy Spirit) and it is for profit.
manifestation - Greek word - phanerosis - making visible or observable; exhibit . . . i.e. detectable by the five senses
Say someone has the chicken pox - how do you know they have the chicken pox? It is exhibited by pimple like sores. We cannot see the virus that causes the chicken pox but we know when someone has the chicken pox by the manifestation of the sores
What happens a lot of the time is that people think tongues in itself is a gift and only select individuals receive that gift - but 1 Cor. 12:7 says it is a manifestation of the Spirit given to every man (believer, i.e. one who has received the gift of holy Spirit) and it is for profit.
Anything and everything that God gives to believers in Christ is never subject to doubt or man's scrutiny. All seem willing to admit that there are many fakers today pertaining to the practice of tongues. This was never the case at the time of pentecost or following thereafter in Acts. God's interventional actions were crystal clear to all. There was never any question of doubt nor the purpose of tongues during that period of time. And they were always a sign to the unbelievers present spoken and heard in their own native language. Simply put, the occasion of Cornelius and his household receiving God's gift of tongues was exactly the same gift that the apostles and believers had received at pentecost. If it wasn't, would the Jewish believers present at this occasion have accepted the gentiles into Christ's newly formed church as fellow heirs if what they witnessed was "different" from what had previously occurred at pentecost ? Of course not. It would have proved nothing. It was the same gift ... that being earthly languages being spoken by those previously unlearned in as much. Today's tongues in no way resemble the authentic tongues spoken during the apostolic era. And the reason is obvious ... or at least it should be. A question. How is God magnified and glorified by today's supposed practice of tongues ? For this matter to be seemingly necessary today by many is beyond ridiculous and serves only to raise doubt in matters pertaining to God's glorious love for humanity and the authenticity of those proclaiming His majesty. A very troubling matter indeed.
No malice in my omission only the need to keep things as brief as reasonable so folks might actually read what is posted and not skim or skip over it assuming they already know what is written.
You assume that Paul is encouraging the use of tongues when he is contrasting tongues with prophesying which is preaching the word of God for edification and evangelism. Tongues are not a vehicle through which the word of God is spoken forth to the edifying of believers and the evangelism of the lost. Not in the modern church where the completed bible is on the lap of every person seated in the congregation.
Preaching is a Spiritual gift and the preferred means by which men are made wise unto salvation in and through Christ. A major contributing factor to this dissimulation is the mixing and improper use of the terms tongues and prophecy. When we fulfill our great commission in Mat 28 we testify of what Christ did for us and how He changed us from sinners into redeemed saints of God. We also teach the doctrines of Gods word to the new believers making them disciples of Christ not us.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
You assume that Paul is encouraging the use of tongues when he is contrasting tongues with prophesying which is preaching the word of God for edification and evangelism. Tongues are not a vehicle through which the word of God is spoken forth to the edifying of believers and the evangelism of the lost. Not in the modern church where the completed bible is on the lap of every person seated in the congregation.
Preaching is a Spiritual gift and the preferred means by which men are made wise unto salvation in and through Christ. A major contributing factor to this dissimulation is the mixing and improper use of the terms tongues and prophecy. When we fulfill our great commission in Mat 28 we testify of what Christ did for us and how He changed us from sinners into redeemed saints of God. We also teach the doctrines of Gods word to the new believers making them disciples of Christ not us.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
How can I assume what is clearly written? He said both tongues and prophesying are equal when tongues is interpreted and both edify the church. I see nothing here about evangelism. Tongues with interpretation and prophesy are words of edification and exhortation from God to the church, the body of believers. . . . I didn't say it God did.
I never said that preaching is not acceptable. The gift ministries do not replace the manifestation of the Spirit nor do the manifestation of the Spirit replace the gift ministries - they go hand in hand. A preacher, teacher, evangelist, nor pastor can be of much use if what they speak is not given by God, via word (message) of wisdom, word (message) of knowledge - without such there will be no edification of the church.
I never said that preaching is not acceptable. The gift ministries do not replace the manifestation of the Spirit nor do the manifestation of the Spirit replace the gift ministries - they go hand in hand. A preacher, teacher, evangelist, nor pastor can be of much use if what they speak is not given by God, via word (message) of wisdom, word (message) of knowledge - without such there will be no edification of the church.
If it were as clear as you claim you would not be operating on a false assumption. Paul never spoke a word he did not understand. Paul never wrote a word he did not understand. Can we say the same of what is called tongues in the modern church? It is not your fault that we are using opposing definitions for the terms tongues and prophesy. You have been taught the words and their definitions to support a preconceived conclusion and not strict adherence to the truth. I am not trying to be mean or unkind but tongues in the bible are human languages. As human languages they can be interpreted that all may benefit from what has been said. Prophecy today is the act of speaking forth the word of God. In the apostolic church is was giving new revelation from God which was then compiled into the bible as we have it today. But that is likely not the way you have been taught. Paul's ministry was one of evangelism. Tongues at that time and to Paul were a tool for him to give the word to those who did not speak the sale language as he although he was well versed in more languages than most men of the day. There is nothing in the entire bible to support praying or speaking in tongues that are not understandable by the speaker.
Much is made today of the word of wisdom or the word of knowledge but it is not what the bible teaches. Do men who have grown in their walk have words of wisdom and words of knowledge that they can share with younger believers? Yes but it is not as described by some as a word out of the blue that changes lives. We as believers are to disciple others as this is part of Mat 28 our great commission.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
Thats wonders me, because Paul wrote in the same chapter 12 vers 30 that not all will be able to speak in tongues. According your defination only pentecosTals and Charismatics are real christians, because they speak in tongues. All others lacking to have the manifestation of the Holy Spirit. Sorry this Kind of teaching I do not find on the bible. BTW I received the gift of distingish the spirits when I became a believer.
If 88 textet his Theme in the witness thread I would not have a problem. But he claimes that only those are spirit filled which are speaking in tongues. With other words all others are not Spirit filled! What is the condition to be filled with the Spirit? Speaking in tongues?
This teaching I do not find in the Bible! So in a discussion thread it should be allowed to make a commentar, if the teaching is not correct. Otherwise people which reading this thread will believe that what written there is what the bible teaches.
This teaching I do not find in the Bible! So in a discussion thread it should be allowed to make a commentar, if the teaching is not correct. Otherwise people which reading this thread will believe that what written there is what the bible teaches.
Sorry, I cant find that 1. Cor. 12, 7 is speaking from the gift of speaking in tongues. It says that the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good. And in the verses 8-10 he listet the gifts. In Vers 12 Paul compare the different gifts for the church with the different Parts of a body for the body. Later in the chapter (Vers 30) he makes clear that not all believers will got the same gift. Among them is also the gift of speaking in tongues.
So how somebody can teach that the gift of speaking in tongues is for all believers and a sign to received the 2nd baptism? If from the scripture is clear that never all christians will get this gift. Independ their faith ore openess ro believe it?
So how somebody can teach that the gift of speaking in tongues is for all believers and a sign to received the 2nd baptism? If from the scripture is clear that never all christians will get this gift. Independ their faith ore openess ro believe it?
Paul himself said that he spoke in tongues . . . 1 Cor. 14:18 He said he prayed in the Spirit and prayed with understanding; he sang in the Spirit and sang with understanding. 1 Cor. 14:14,15) Tongues is a language understood by someone somewhere but the one speaking does not understand because it will be a language he hasn't learned - For one who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God; for no one understands, but in his spirit he speaks mysteries. 1 Cor. 14:2 NASB - the point this is making is that when someone speaks in tongues, he does not understand what he is saying . . . which goes along with 1 Cor. 14:14 - For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my mind in unfruitful. Prophecy in this context is not "new" revelation as far as the written word is concerned but it is communicating a message from God to another person or persons. It is basically a word of wisdom or a word of knowledge given to a believer for someone else or group (the church) for the benefit of exhortation and edifying - When one is alone, one does not have to interpret, but in the church - tongues needs to be interpreted and will be interpreted by the one speaking in tongues - God gives the language and God gives the interpretation via the gift of holy spirit within that believer. What I know is plainly written.
Speaking in tongues for missionary work? I can't find scripture to back that up . . .
Does God talk to you? If he does then you are receiving a word (message) of wisdom and/or a word (message) of knowledge. Why else would we even consult him when we were needing guidance in making a decision; or in meeting a need in our lives or in the life of someone else?
Speaking in tongues for missionary work? I can't find scripture to back that up . . .
Does God talk to you? If he does then you are receiving a word (message) of wisdom and/or a word (message) of knowledge. Why else would we even consult him when we were needing guidance in making a decision; or in meeting a need in our lives or in the life of someone else?
1 Cor. 12:7 . . . But the manifestation of the spirit is given to every man to profit withal; i.e. the common good.
So here in the above God tells us that the manifestation is given to every man . . . Of course, we know that that is every man with distinction because one has to be filled with the Spirit in order to manifest the Spirit.
1 Cor. 12:29,30 . . .Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles? Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?
So which is it? Do we leave it as a contradictory statement but try to understand what is being said?
1 Cor. 12:28-31 is a summary statement. So when we summarize everything in 1 Cor. 12, we learn that the Lord distributes to every person and at any given time God will energize spiritual gifts and manifestations differently in different people, even though each person can manifest all nine manifestations.
Conclusion: At any given time, in any given meeting, not every person will do everything. (1 Cor. 14:40 - Let all things be done decently and in order) It is the Lord who distributes and energizes as it pleases him.
"According your defination only pentecosTals and Charismatics are real christians, because they speak in tongues. All others lacking to have the manifestation of the Holy Spirit". . . . . But that is NOT what I said - I said it was available for EVERY believer to manifest the Spirit for EVERY believer has received the gift of holy Spirit. AND I NEVER, NEVER, NEVER said that one is not a believer if they do not speak in tongues. BTW . . . EVERY believer can manifest discerning of spirits - it is not a separate gift - it is all wrapped up in the gift of holy Spirit.
So here in the above God tells us that the manifestation is given to every man . . . Of course, we know that that is every man with distinction because one has to be filled with the Spirit in order to manifest the Spirit.
1 Cor. 12:29,30 . . .Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles? Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?
So which is it? Do we leave it as a contradictory statement but try to understand what is being said?
1 Cor. 12:28-31 is a summary statement. So when we summarize everything in 1 Cor. 12, we learn that the Lord distributes to every person and at any given time God will energize spiritual gifts and manifestations differently in different people, even though each person can manifest all nine manifestations.
Conclusion: At any given time, in any given meeting, not every person will do everything. (1 Cor. 14:40 - Let all things be done decently and in order) It is the Lord who distributes and energizes as it pleases him.
"According your defination only pentecosTals and Charismatics are real christians, because they speak in tongues. All others lacking to have the manifestation of the Holy Spirit". . . . . But that is NOT what I said - I said it was available for EVERY believer to manifest the Spirit for EVERY believer has received the gift of holy Spirit. AND I NEVER, NEVER, NEVER said that one is not a believer if they do not speak in tongues. BTW . . . EVERY believer can manifest discerning of spirits - it is not a separate gift - it is all wrapped up in the gift of holy Spirit.
1 Cor. 12:7 The verse starts out with the word "BUT" which is setting a distinction with what was said before and what the subject is now turning to: the manifestation of the Spirit. These are NOT list of different gifts where one gets one and others are left out . . . There is ONE gift - the gift of holy Spirit which we receive when we repent and are baptized - Acts 2:38.
v12 . . . For as the body is one, and has many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ. We have one body with many "parts" (arms, legs, knees, feet, etc.) - Christ has one body with many "parts" (members) of which he is the head - we all need one another to operate as a whole.
It is not a second baptism . . . one is filled with the gift of holy Spirit when one is born again. v. 28-30 We just won't all operate them at the same time.
v12 . . . For as the body is one, and has many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ. We have one body with many "parts" (arms, legs, knees, feet, etc.) - Christ has one body with many "parts" (members) of which he is the head - we all need one another to operate as a whole.
It is not a second baptism . . . one is filled with the gift of holy Spirit when one is born again. v. 28-30 We just won't all operate them at the same time.
"Tongues is a language understood by someone somewhere but the one speaking does not understand because it will be a language he hasn't learned - For one who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God; for no one understands, but in his spirit he speaks mysteries. 1 Cor. 14:2 NASB - the point this is making is that when someone speaks in tongues, he does not understand what he is saying . . . which goes along with 1 Cor. 14:14 - For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my mind in unfruitful."
Nowhere in Paul’s letter does it imply that the speaker does not understand what he himself is saying; it’s those listening to him who do not understand, as they do not speak his language. For this reason, he does not ‘speak to men, but to God’ – to those listening to him, even though he is praying from deep within his heart (i.e. ‘in the spirit’) he is speaking ‘mysteries’. ‘Mysteries’ here is just an idiomatic expression like the modern expression “it’s all Greek to me/us”.
“1 Corinthians 14:14 is probably the main text used to argue that the language speaker did not understand his language. Paul says that if he should speak in a language (without translation), "my spirit prays but my mind is unfruitful [akarpos]." Lenski takes akarpos as passive: "my nous or understanding" is inactive and thus akarpos--"barren," "unfruitful," producing no distinct thoughts".
Paul could however have been using akarpos in the active sense:
A decision upon its meaning centers in akarpos ("unfruitful") whether the adjective is passive in sense, meaning the speaker himself receives no benefit, or active in sense, meaning his nous (understanding) provides no benefit to others...The view that assigns akarpos a meaning of "produces nothing, contributes nothing to the process"... is not convincing, because akarpos does not mean "inactive." It is a word for results and does not apply to the process through which the results are obtained. The present discussion does not center on the activity or nonactivity of the tongues speaker's mind, but rather on potential benefit derived by listeners.
The whole context of 1 Corinthians 14 is the effect upon the hearers of untranslated languages.
Paul’s concern is the edification of the group. Therefore, 14:14 should be taken as "My spirit prays but my mind does not produce fruit [in others]."
Or, the fact that I understand what I’m saying is unfruitful to others, in that they can’t benefit from it.
“If I pray in an unknown language (i.e. unknown to those listening to me), my spirit prays, but my understanding (the fact I know/understand what I’m saying) is unfruitful (to those listening to me).”
The “my sprit prays” part can be taken two ways: “my spirit prays (but theirs doesn’t)” or “my spirit prays (i.e. though I’m praying from deep within my being)”, my understanding (the fact that I understand what I’m praying/saying) is unfruitful (does not benefit those that are hearing me pray/speak).
Paul, being (for his time anyway) a ‘world traveler’, would have probably spoken several languages; maybe not all fluently, but certainly enough to ‘get by’. So, yes, he certainly did speak ‘in tongues’
If I may paraphrase from what another poster wrote, and kind of hit the nail on the head (with apologies for hijacking his reply) .....
You have been taught the concepts and their definitions to support a preconceived conclusion of what tongues are 'supposed to be' and not strict adherence to the reality of life in a multi cultural, multi-lingual community such as Corinth and the common everyday issues encountered with respect to communication and mutual intelligibility. I am not trying to be mean or unkind, but there's absolutely nothing in these passages that imply anything but real language.
Nowhere in Paul’s letter does it imply that the speaker does not understand what he himself is saying; it’s those listening to him who do not understand, as they do not speak his language. For this reason, he does not ‘speak to men, but to God’ – to those listening to him, even though he is praying from deep within his heart (i.e. ‘in the spirit’) he is speaking ‘mysteries’. ‘Mysteries’ here is just an idiomatic expression like the modern expression “it’s all Greek to me/us”.
“1 Corinthians 14:14 is probably the main text used to argue that the language speaker did not understand his language. Paul says that if he should speak in a language (without translation), "my spirit prays but my mind is unfruitful [akarpos]." Lenski takes akarpos as passive: "my nous or understanding" is inactive and thus akarpos--"barren," "unfruitful," producing no distinct thoughts".
Paul could however have been using akarpos in the active sense:
A decision upon its meaning centers in akarpos ("unfruitful") whether the adjective is passive in sense, meaning the speaker himself receives no benefit, or active in sense, meaning his nous (understanding) provides no benefit to others...The view that assigns akarpos a meaning of "produces nothing, contributes nothing to the process"... is not convincing, because akarpos does not mean "inactive." It is a word for results and does not apply to the process through which the results are obtained. The present discussion does not center on the activity or nonactivity of the tongues speaker's mind, but rather on potential benefit derived by listeners.
The whole context of 1 Corinthians 14 is the effect upon the hearers of untranslated languages.
Paul’s concern is the edification of the group. Therefore, 14:14 should be taken as "My spirit prays but my mind does not produce fruit [in others]."
Or, the fact that I understand what I’m saying is unfruitful to others, in that they can’t benefit from it.
“If I pray in an unknown language (i.e. unknown to those listening to me), my spirit prays, but my understanding (the fact I know/understand what I’m saying) is unfruitful (to those listening to me).”
The “my sprit prays” part can be taken two ways: “my spirit prays (but theirs doesn’t)” or “my spirit prays (i.e. though I’m praying from deep within my being)”, my understanding (the fact that I understand what I’m praying/saying) is unfruitful (does not benefit those that are hearing me pray/speak).
Paul, being (for his time anyway) a ‘world traveler’, would have probably spoken several languages; maybe not all fluently, but certainly enough to ‘get by’. So, yes, he certainly did speak ‘in tongues’
If I may paraphrase from what another poster wrote, and kind of hit the nail on the head (with apologies for hijacking his reply) .....
You have been taught the concepts and their definitions to support a preconceived conclusion of what tongues are 'supposed to be' and not strict adherence to the reality of life in a multi cultural, multi-lingual community such as Corinth and the common everyday issues encountered with respect to communication and mutual intelligibility. I am not trying to be mean or unkind, but there's absolutely nothing in these passages that imply anything but real language.
Jay
I will tell you an experience that if those had not been praying in the Spirit, a tragedy would of happened.
My girlfriend found out her husband was having an affair. She is a Christian, but this began to torment her mind. So she found out the address of the girlfriend.
A group of women were in the church (Assembly of God) and they were praying. One had a vision of my friend going to the house of the other woman with a gun.
They all got in their cars and sped to the house. And my friend was there with the gun. They stopped her just in time.
She told me later that in her mind she saw the woman splattered all over the wall.
And she was ministered to.
Lots of things like this happen. We need Holy Spirit and all that He has for us.
I will tell you an experience that if those had not been praying in the Spirit, a tragedy would of happened.
My girlfriend found out her husband was having an affair. She is a Christian, but this began to torment her mind. So she found out the address of the girlfriend.
A group of women were in the church (Assembly of God) and they were praying. One had a vision of my friend going to the house of the other woman with a gun.
They all got in their cars and sped to the house. And my friend was there with the gun. They stopped her just in time.
She told me later that in her mind she saw the woman splattered all over the wall.
And she was ministered to.
Lots of things like this happen. We need Holy Spirit and all that He has for us.
You are not listening to me which is no big deal but you are not listening to the text and that is a problem. Paul prefaces the passages you loosely refer to with the phrase for if which is not the same as when I. Paul is urging and stressing prayer and speech in known languages that all might benefit from what is being said. What if a trumpet does not sound like a trumpet who will recognize it and its purpose? Wasn't it the pagans that prayed meaningless prayers? How are prayers in an unknown language any better?
Paul was certainly multi-lingual. Through the power of the Holy Spirit God most certainly enable Paul to speak to even more folks in languages he had not learned. Whether through a miracle of the tongue or the ear I cannot say.
Really? Paul's ministry was one of missionary work and he would have used many languages to convey the gospel message to peoples of every language.
Through the Holy Spirit and the written or spoken word of God? Through prayer and meditation on Gods word? Why would you ask? Do you intend to infer that you have a superior method of communicating with God?
As Christians we learn to rely upon God and His leading in every matter in our lives. This is true if we are Pentecostal, charismatic or just plain old bible Christian.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
For the cause of Christ
Roger
I could care less if you are listening to me, but I do care if someone understands scripture.
10) So also you, unless you utter by the tongue speech that is clear, how will it be known what is spoken? For you will be speaking into the air. [SUP]10 [/SUP]There are, perhaps, a great many kinds of languages in the world, and no kind is without meaning. [SUP]11 [/SUP]If then I do not know the meaning of the language, I will be to the one who speaks a [SUP][b][/SUP]barbarian, and the one who speaks will be a barbarian to me. [SUP]12 [/SUP]So also you, since you are zealous of spiritual gifts, seek to abound for the edification of the church.[SUP]13 [/SUP]Therefore let one who speaks in a tongue pray that he may interpret. He went through all of that about the trumpets, and the different languages that no one understands to let the one who speaks in a tongue interpret so that there will be understanding and edification of the church.
[SUP]14 [/SUP]For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my mind is unfruitful. [SUP]15 [/SUP]What is the outcome then? I will pray with the spirit and I will pray with the mind also; I will sing with the spirit and I will sing with the mind also. [SUP]16 [/SUP]Otherwise if you bless in the spirit only, how will the one who fills the place of the ungifted say the “Amen” at your giving of thanks, since he does not know what you are saying? [SUP]17 [/SUP]For you are giving thanks well enough, but the other person is not edified. [SUP]18 [/SUP]I thank God, I speak in tongues more than you all; [SUP]19 [/SUP]however, in the church I desire to speak five words with my mind so that I may instruct others also, rather than ten thousand words in a tongue.
The fact is Paul spoke in tongues more than anyone. This whole context of the operations of the manifestation of the Spirit shows that Paul manifested tongues - A God given language - NOT one he knows . . . .
Well, I love speaking mysteries with my heavenly Father! I really wish you had a better understanding of the use of the wonderful gift God has given you.
10) So also you, unless you utter by the tongue speech that is clear, how will it be known what is spoken? For you will be speaking into the air. [SUP]10 [/SUP]There are, perhaps, a great many kinds of languages in the world, and no kind is without meaning. [SUP]11 [/SUP]If then I do not know the meaning of the language, I will be to the one who speaks a [SUP][b][/SUP]barbarian, and the one who speaks will be a barbarian to me. [SUP]12 [/SUP]So also you, since you are zealous of spiritual gifts, seek to abound for the edification of the church.[SUP]13 [/SUP]Therefore let one who speaks in a tongue pray that he may interpret. He went through all of that about the trumpets, and the different languages that no one understands to let the one who speaks in a tongue interpret so that there will be understanding and edification of the church.
[SUP]14 [/SUP]For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my mind is unfruitful. [SUP]15 [/SUP]What is the outcome then? I will pray with the spirit and I will pray with the mind also; I will sing with the spirit and I will sing with the mind also. [SUP]16 [/SUP]Otherwise if you bless in the spirit only, how will the one who fills the place of the ungifted say the “Amen” at your giving of thanks, since he does not know what you are saying? [SUP]17 [/SUP]For you are giving thanks well enough, but the other person is not edified. [SUP]18 [/SUP]I thank God, I speak in tongues more than you all; [SUP]19 [/SUP]however, in the church I desire to speak five words with my mind so that I may instruct others also, rather than ten thousand words in a tongue.
The fact is Paul spoke in tongues more than anyone. This whole context of the operations of the manifestation of the Spirit shows that Paul manifested tongues - A God given language - NOT one he knows . . . .
Well, I love speaking mysteries with my heavenly Father! I really wish you had a better understanding of the use of the wonderful gift God has given you.