Bible Teachings or Traditions of Men?

kenisyes · Oct 21, 2012

1. I do believe Him. But sometimes I must advise others who do not.

2. Then why not accept another point of view?

3. How do you know? Looking at #4, maybe you are a master? Otherwise it sounds pretty judgmental. [Note, I said 'sounds']

4. That does not answer my question as to how you judge.

5. Were you there when I did? I was.

6. Give me a Scripture verse, please.

Bea22 · Oct 21, 2012

NWL said:

God is Spirit and Jesus was the Logos - which means Spirit of God incarnate in flesh.
Jesus said He is the Alpha and Omega, the Beginning and End, the First and the Last. That means exactly what it is.
To deny the deity of Christ, one must make Him only a man and only a creation. His flesh body was a man and conceived of the Holy Spirit but He existed before the flesh body and He was never a created being.
The scripture you refer to, Proverbs 8:22
22The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old.
23I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was.
24When there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water.
25Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I brought forth:

Brought forth doesn't mean created. It means bear. It is beyond human understanding of how Spirit gives birth to Spirit but Jesus Christ was Spirit before being made flesh.

angelofmercy · Oct 21, 2012

angelofmercy said:

kenisyes said:

1. Again we can only witness. Belief or increase can only come from the Father.

2. I do. Remember God is seen through the faces of others. We are but to test the spirits.

3. There is only ONE conclusion by which fear is cast out by love. And that's all or none.

4. My judgement is this. That if one man died for all, then all were dead.

5. I wasn't but do you call any man common or unclean?

6. Jeremiah 10:24. If you need more, I will provide them.

GraceBeUntoYou · Oct 22, 2012

Alter2Ego said:

Death is Not Equal to Lifelessness

In our last examination of annihilationism, we proved that the assumption that life and existence are synonymous terms is both logically incoherent and unscriptural. In this post, the aim is to show that death, although it is the opposite of life, is not lifelessness. Like the former assumption of some annihilationists which we last dealt with, this assumption is likewise both logically incoherent and unscriptural. Again, I state clearly at the outset that the assumption could be rejected on the basis of its own logical incoherence, but for the sake of avoiding charges of presenting an unscriptural argument I will also give a biblical refutation of the assumption that death is lifelessness.

First, note that while it is the case that all dead things are lifeless, it does not follow that all lifeless things are dead. Rocks, tables, chairs, and baseball caps are all lifeless, but not one of them is dead. Thus, it does not follow that death is lifelessness, for there are many things which are lifeless and dead; and there are many other things which are lifeless butnotdead. Thus, it follows that death and lifelessness are not interchangeable terms. Second, if we define death as the deprivation of life, it is more emphatically and obviously the case that death is not lifelessness. For if death is the deprivation of life, then death is a process/series of states in a man which causes his vital functions to begin to fail. Death, on this basis, cannot be identified as lifelessness, for lifelessness would be the end result of death. Instead, under this definition we see that death is a process that ends with the lifelessness of a man. Third, therefore, it is not the case that a dead man is solely a man that is lifeless. It was ontologically possible [e.g., in Adam], and it is logically possible [e.g., in Eve and all others descended from Adam], for a man to exist as a lifeless-but-neither-alive-nor-dead being. Fourth, therefore, while it is true that death entails the lifelessness of the one who is dead, death and lifelessness are not identical.

The Scriptures are not silent on this matter, either, as I have already shown in the exposition of the creation of Adam. “The man” [i.e., Adam] was certainly a creature of God; however, he was not alive. Likewise, Adam [i.e., the man] was without life [i.e., lifeless] but he was not dead. The Scriptures speak of lifeless idols, by which They signify that these idols are not dead or alive – they are lifeless chunks of wood or metal or some other element. This is very clearly the case in Psalm 135:15-17,

The idols of the nations are silver and gold,
the work of human hands.
They have mouths, but do not speak;
they have eyes, but not see;
they have ears but do not hear,
nor is there any breath [spirit, life] in their mouths.

These idols, which were never living to begin with, cannot be identified as dead. Note that they have bodies that do not function, much like Adam in the garden prior to his receiving the breath of life from God. Thus, the idols are lifeless, but they are not dead. Similarly, Paul speaks about “idols that have noreal existence,”but by this he simply is saying that there is nothing in the real world that corresponds to the imaginary deities represented by the idols. In other words, Paul is not denying that the idols exist, for if he were then he would be contradicting himself when he says that there is meat that is sacrificed to idols. This is to say, Paul is declaring that the idols are not alive – they are lifeless pieces of wood and stone and silver and gold. Like these idols, moreover, Paul notes that there are “lifeless musical instruments,” by which once again we see that lifelessness is not equivalent to death. Now the similarity between the idols and the musical instruments, if it has not been sufficiently drawn out for the reader, consists in this: idols and instruments are made by men from the elements of God's creation, and both serve a purpose, but both are in and of themselves lifeless. Additionally, although they both are lifeless they are, nonetheless, not dead.

We would not be wrong to also stress the similarities between Adam as the image of God and the idols as the images of imaginary deities. Dr. G.K. Beale elaborates on this in his article Garden Temple.

The Genesis portrayal of humans being created in the image of God and being placed in the sanctuary of Eden is even generally in line with the ancient Near Eastern practice in which images of the god were placed in a garden-like temple. There is a fascinating parallel from Mesopotamia, where "the creation, animation and installation of divine images followed a strictly specified set of rites." A series of rituals were acted out in the workshop of a craftsman, at a riverbank, in an arboreal garden and finally, in a temple. Through the rituals the inert image of a god was born, brought to life, clothed, and changed into a living manifestation of the god. The image was then installed in a temple. Likewise, God formed Adam in his "workshop" (Gen. 2:7a), was transmuted into a living person by God's breath (Gen. 2:7b), and was fully brought to life (Gen. 2:7c). Next, he was installed into the Garden (Gen. 2:15). Such a background suggests further that Adam was an "image" of the true God, not a false pagan deity, and, as such, was placed into the garden temple.

Note the procedure Beale identifies: (1) God forms Adam, (2) God breathes life into Adam, (3) God places Adam in His garden temple. This, once again, underscores that Adam, prior to receiving the breath of life, was not dead but lifeless. This becomes even clearer when we consider that the contrast between Adam and the idols is that Adam is truly given life whereas the idols are, and will forever remain, lifeless.Thus, we have seen that death is not lifelessness, although death entails lifelessness. The equation of death with lifelessness is both logically incoherent and Scripturally impossible. Death is simply not lifelessness.

GraceBeUntoYou · Oct 22, 2012

NWL said:

Let scripture answer that question for you.

(Hebrews 3:4, Rev 3:14) "..Of course, every house is constructed by someone, but he that constructed all things is God.."

So if Jesus was created part of creation then how can he be God, since it's God that created all things. Its contradictory for Jesus to be God and yet part of creation.

Scriptures that Indicate Jesus is created are below, remember that God has no beginning, only things that are created have a beginning.

(Revelation 3:14) “..These are the things that the Amen [Jesus] says, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation by God.."

(Micah 5:2) “..And you, O Beth′le·hem.. from you there will come out to me the one [Jesus] who is to become ruler in Israel, whose origin is from early times, from the days of time indefinite.."

(Colossians 1:15) "..He [Jesus] is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.."

(Proverbs 8:22) “..Jehovah himself produced me as the beginning of his way, the earliest of his achievements of long ago.."

Even John 1:1 supports Jesus being created, it says "..In [the] beginning the Word was..", remember Almighty God wasn't created so had no beginning, but here Jesus clearly does.

This post is certainly worthy of a response, and it most certainly will be responded to in full when I get home this afternoon. To be continued.

Abiding · Oct 22, 2012

Hey was that part 2

psychomom · Oct 22, 2012

Abiding said:

Yeah! And now I have to get some...putty...and fill in these...holes from... those hooks. *whew*
Woman's work is never done.
(by which I mean to say this woman never actually DOES her work)

Rene_N · Oct 22, 2012

kenisyes said:

Wow. You are "curious".... I'd say you are.

I would like to know, where does God keep the lake of fire. Probably below the equator? Working in a foundary for many years, I know how much more energy it takes to keep a decent fire going when the ambient temp. goes south of 40F.

Sheol and Hades too. A used missle silo if it would be big enough to accomadate to numbers of damned waiters. Where do you say?

I'd like to ask, since you inquired as to what folks could study to make them doubt your version, what have you encountered that would make you beleive in a God that would keep these places around for eternity, remembering that God is a God of justice, an eye for an eye?

Grandpa · Oct 22, 2012

Alter2Ego said:

Only men, who are evil, use this type of speech. God doesn't lie. If God had said He did a killing on Wall Street you could rest assured that not only did someone die, literally, but that He also got a good cash return for His investment.

Take the story of Noahs Ark. Actual, literal flood. Actual, literal ark. Symbollically, even though there is death all around us, God saves us through His Son Jesus Christ. See, literal and symbolic at the same time.

Take the story of the Passover in Egypt. Actual, literal lambs blood over the doorpost. Actual, literal death in Egypt for those who did not have the lambs blood applied, and actual literal life for those who did have the lambs blood applied. Symbolically, The Lord Jesus is the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world. When His blood is applied spiritual life for those who it is applied over, and spiritual death for who it is not applied. See? The Passover is literal and symbolic at the same time.

When you say that God's word doesn't mean what it literally says but it means something else, you are calling God a liar. God doesn't lie, even in the smallest of ways. God's word is literal and its symbolic, simultaneously.

In every way, God's word is Truth.

Grandpa · Oct 22, 2012

weakness said:

Scripture is almost always literal and symbolic at the same time else how could we get the symbolic or spiritual meaning if the literal isn't true. actually the spiritual may have many multifaceted meaning, but all true and non opposing. but these are things of the office of a prophet, not the gift of prophesy.and usually not meant to be rambled out as a talebearer revealeth secrets ,but used in intercession and ministering to the lord . And especially not to sell a new book as most of the "enlightened" do ,making merchandise of you.God told Danial to seal up the words of the prophesy till the end. and that knowledge would increase and many would run to and fro.

I thought I was just telling the truth. Sharing the Truth of God's Word. I didn't know it was a secret.

If I offended anyone I didn't mean to.

Abiding · Oct 22, 2012

psychomom said:

kenisyes · Oct 22, 2012

Rene_N said:

He's got plenty of energy for the sun. The way I hear it (from Revelation) we get a new heaven with the new earth. The heavens are big enough for all those suns, I imagine He can find the energy for some demons and (hopefully not many) sinners to keep burning. He certainly has the energy to keep trees bearing fruit twelve times a year forever, and the water of life flowing from the throne.

Another way to look at it, is what looks like infinite energy to us is infinitesimal if you get into a larger dimension. Are you aware that the entire motion of the solar system is just a picture of a suitable four-dimensional fractal in 5-dimensional space?

God does not want to do eye for an eye. I suppose I was raised with the idea of hell, and since I find it in Scripture, I find no reason to doubt it. Logically, as I posted earlier, God has only so many options, given the fact that the angels sinned, and some people probably deserve to be with them. He can ignore the sin of those who have not accepted Jesus' atonement (then He is not just), He can "delete" the people after they rise (then He admits He made a mistake to make them in the first place), or He could build a new heavens and earth with a place for them to be. God does not have to do eye-for-an-eye. If we choose, day by day, for a lifetime to ignore His blessings, we are setting our soul up for some kind of hell anyway. As I read the ancient theories of how the world is put together, the fire is what they would bring on themselves anyway.

My original question did not concern why someone would doubt hell (I know many such people) but why someone would combine the three questions of the trinity, hell, and whether the word "godhead" occurs in the original texts of the New Testament. If is a unique combination.

Rene_N · Oct 22, 2012

kenisyes said:

You actually summed up your beliefs and the reasons for them quite well.

(1) You believe in a god who doesn't know justice, obviously the "god of this system of things" (that's from the Bible)

(2) You stick to what you've been fed from youth on and cannot change.

kenisyes · Oct 23, 2012

angelofmercy said:

1. The Father always desires it, so He always provides the opportunity. Some say no. I've seen it happen.

2. Maybe I am reading you wrong (always a danger in threads with no body language or tone of voice). I am under the impression you do not. You seem to be condemning people and approaches, not spirits. If I am wrong, I apologize. If I remember right, this whole 1-6 postings we are doing started over my comment that you need to read some things in Greek. You responded that the simplicity of Christ does not require language. While that is true, it does not change the fact that God chose to communicate in the Hebrew and Greek languages. If you are opposed to reading Scripture in those languages on the basis of testing spirits, then you are saying that anyone who tries to read them is doing it by promptings of the evil one. Please explain how this can be. Even if reading Hebrew and Greek could draw some from the simplicity of Christ, if it drew all, then there would never have been any translation that could be produced without sin, since no one could have read the original to translate it.

3. I assume you mean that love casts out all fear. I meant your language sounds as though you are saying the things you say about all people. It's clear, one person may have had his fear cast out, while another has not. But that's not what I am asking. Do you, in your statements, apply them to all people?

4. I asked how you judge who is a master. That statement does not seem to apply to he question (please tell me if it does, and I'm missing it). Besides, is that a judgment, or a statement of fact?

5. No. All are precious to God.

6. This proves judgment can be a form of correction. Your statement was that judgment is always a form of correction. I do not believe that to be true for always, and that's what I want a Scripture for.

The whole reason I keep responding is that I think you apply your comments to all people. I am most uncomfortable with that, since clearly only some on the earth are now saved. Even of the saved, only some are serious about following Jesus day by day.

kenisyes · Oct 23, 2012

Rene_N said:

i must not have done it very well. You misunderstood everything I said.

I said that if God did not do hell fire, He would be unjust or would have made a mistake. He does hell fire, therefore He is just.

I also said I learned it my youth, and verified it in the Scripture. I've rejected a lot of things I learned that are not in the Scriptures. My youth training is why I chose to look for verification. the verification is why I believe it.

Please provide a verse for "God of this system of things". The word "system" is not in the KJV.

If you mean I do not believe God knows justice because He does not want to do eye-for-an-eye, then consider that God gave that as a law to man. Find me a Scripture where God ever took the penalty as what a person or nation did to Him. God's ways are above our ways.

angelofmercy · Oct 24, 2012

I

kenisyes said:

1. Use a plant. I can put a seed in a pot. You may water the soil. But it is ALWAYS God who commands the plant to grow. If I wanted a candy bar, and had the power and means to do so, who can stop me from geting my candy bar? Likewise if ALMIGHTY GOD desired ALL TO BE SAVED, and HAS THE POWER AND MEANS to do so, can you or any other man change His mind?

2. How can I seem to condemn when I say all will be saved? I indeed judge spirits! I judge and lay hold of every thought and imagination that is contrary to God who is light and love. If understanding another language helps you to understand, then increase that knowledge. But knowledge puffs up beloved. Simplicity is drowned by the flood of knowledge. Never forget love because what we all "know" goes to the grave as well.
Through ONE MAN, EVERYONE dies, through ONE MAN, EVERYONE LIVES! Simple... Just believe to cast out fear.
3. Everyone belongs to God. But here and now, most DO NOT belong to Christ. Most people will be hurt of the second death. Again read of the kinsman redeemer and of jubilee.

4. That is judgement! We all die a sinner by appearances. So to bring us all home, let His judgments be righteous! Correct us all.... I have only one master, but those who look to lead must serve.

5. They are indeed. And one day He will desire ALL of His precious jewels.

6. 1 Timothy 1:20

kenisyes · Oct 24, 2012

angelofmercy said:

1. Maybe this is our fundamental disagreement. I know there is no settling it, since entire groups of denominations have been arguing for 500 plus years about it. I believe that God has voluntarily given up this power, and so allows people to be condemned however much it hurts Him to do so. Otherwise, why would Jesus, in Matt. 25:31-45, preach implying that there will anyone on His left?

2. You are correct. It is because I do not agree with point number 1, that I did not understand your words as they appeared. I apologize, and I understand now. So what you're saying, is do whatever draws you closer to Jesus, but beware that you are not led astray in the process? I wholeheartedly agree with that. And since those things that draw you closer are different for different people, we see different perspectives.

3. I sincerely hope you are wrong about the word "most". Of course, neither of us has any real way of knowing. Doesn't this contradict your point #1 though? If many, or even one, is to go to the second death, then either God does not desire all men to be saved, or lacks the power, or the means. Which one of these do you believe is causing the problem of some not being of Christ? Since I believe He voluntarily gives up this power, I don't have this difficulty.

4. Then I misunderstood you. When you asked "are you a master" you meant the question rhetorically, since there are no masters except Jesus, and obviously, I am not Him. I withdraw that and all related questions.

5. Excellent, then we agree.

6. Again this proves that judgment CAN be used for correction. I agree with that; I know many Scriptures for that. Your statement was that judgment can be used only for correction. In other words, I understand you to say that any time judgment is used in the Bible, it is only for correction. The Matthew quote I gave above shows that Jesus is pronouncing judgment without any hope of the behavior being corrected. My question to you is can you produce a scriptural reason to believe the idea that judgment is used ONLY for correction. I believe I have just produced one of many that shows that it is not used only for correction.

I now understand and agree with you on points 2,4 and 5. That leaves 1,3 and 6, if you think we need to discuss further. If you can explain how to resolve the contradiction I mentioned between 1 and 3, I will agree that we must be simply seeing different points of view, and will agree that we both need to keep our own. I think you may have simply mis-spoken on 6, inserting the word "all".

kenisyes · Oct 24, 2012

angelofmercy said:

Sorry, I forgot ti comment on the plant image. God may command it grow, but I can pull it up and it will die. Actually, if I leave it outside, the mean kid down the block can pull it up and it will die too. Jesus actually uses this image in the sower and the seed parable, where many plants die before bearing seed.

Speaking of the hypothetical mean kid down the block, they stop other kids from eating candy bars all the time, just by taking them away.

The comparisons do not work because God is almighty, so there is no mean kid who He can't stop if He chooses to.

Mark51 · Oct 25, 2012

I am in agreement that these two topics are entirely teachings of men. I have made posts on both of these subjects that gives an accurate explanations.

Jon4TheCross · Oct 25, 2012

I had to shorten this by 4000 characters, so I took out a few questions.

1.This is what I see in scripture concerning what God is, and how Jesus is God, along with The Father, and The Holy Spirit (the trinity question).
Jos 5:14 And he said, Nay; but as captain of the host of the LORD am I now come. And Joshua fell on his face to the earth, and did worship, and said unto him, What saith my lord unto his servant?
Jos 5:15 And the captain of the LORD'S host said unto Joshua, Loose thy shoe from off thy foot; for the place whereon thou standest is holy. And Joshua did so.

This is an example of The Word of God before The Word was made flesh and dwelt among us.

Joh 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

A way that I explain it to people that seems to help is:
God is Light. God is Light that comes from the heat/fire, which in this case represents The Father. God is Light that comes from the oil/fuel of the fire, which in this case represents The Word of God. God is Light that comes from the air/oxygen of the fire, which in this case represents the Holy Spirit. Jesus is Light/God.

Joh 1:4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
Joh 1:5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

Jesus is the Fire, Oil, Air, and Light/God in an earthen vessel/lamp. Jesus is the only earthen vessel not adopted.

That is the best way I know how to convey the understanding to someone about the fact that Jesus is The Father in an earthen vessel.
Rom 11:29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
Jas 1:17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.
Jas 1:18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.

God gave His only begotten earthen vessel and example of Love/Light/a son (an eternal example, because the gifts and calling of God are without repentance). Jesus will always be the eternal example for us, fellow heirs, children of God (but we're adopted of course).
　
1-2. On the hellfire subject, I do see that there are two conditions that cannot be remedied, and they are blaspheme of the Holy Spirit, and the mark of the beast. These unforgivables are in an eternal condition that separates them from God, but they will exist forever because they are spirits, so there is a place for them in existence forever as well. Their reward is eternal as well as ours, because to whom much is given, much is required. The evil ones are having their reward even now, but this is their temporary reward, and their eternal reward is found in the following verses.
Rev 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
Rev 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
Mar 9:46Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
Mar 9:47And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:
Mar 9:48Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
Mar 9:49For every one shall be salted with fire, and every sacrifice shall be salted with salt.
Mar 9:50Saltisgood: but if the salt have lost his saltness, wherewith will ye season it? Have salt in yourselves, and have peace one with another.
2.2Co 2:10 To whom ye forgive any thing, I forgive also: for if I forgave any thing, to whom I forgave it, for your sakes forgave I it in the person of Christ;
2Co 2:11 Lest Satan should get an advantage of us: for we are not ignorant of his devices.
Those responsible for evil are well aware of the nature of God, and what He is. God has no beginning. Light has no beginning, and those responsible for evil have chosen the reward of blaspheming the Holy Spirit/Light, and they do it through many ways, including the various evil religions and their so called gods. The best way to be convincing when deceiving people is to be very close to the real thing, but then change just a few things to suit. I know satan is all about distracting from God, and causing people to think that darkness is light, when it is not. I see the historic mock gods as more proof of what satan is trying to blaspheme, which is Light from the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost. It's another example God gave us of unity and equality by the way. Anyhow, the historic mock gods are just more evidence of the knowledge that satan has of God, and to whom much is given, much is required.
　
3. Jesus and His followers have always taught what they know, and what they know is awesome when you put it all together, and then God alone gets the glory for the one and only combined and united faith.
Joh 3:11Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness.
If you really want me to give you all the verses on love, light, oil, fire, water, wind, blood, and all the things that testify to the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, then I can, but it will take some time. Much of Jesus teachings, parables, and His example of course showed the example of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, which is Light/Love/etc. Jesus did teach what is found in Mark chapter 9 as mentioned above. The following are just a couple of verses that indicate the nature of Light/Love/God.
Joh 6:46Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.
Joh 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thouthen,Shew us the Father?
Joh 14:10Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
Joh 14:11Believe me that Iamin the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.

7. The soul is the motivated free-will of the concience, and it is part of the spirit of man.
1Co 2:11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
1Th 5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Heb_4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
The heart, soul, mind, and strength make up the spirit of man, which is also spoken of as "worm" in the above scriptures in Mark. On the right and left of our cross is the flesh and spirit. If the motivated free-will of the concience is motivated by the Holy Ghost, then our left hand is making us holy if we are dead or dying to the flesh which is another motivator of the soul.

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