Biblical faith what can it really do?

JaumeJ · Nov 22, 2021

I believe there is a problem here. When Jesus Yesua mentione the generation it was the generation of mankind. Whethher the word, present, is present ornot.

Vindicator · Nov 22, 2021

Jon-E said:

Well, I'm not a typical anything. We simply disagree that the events in question should be spiritualized. I grew up in no heresies, nor was I indoctrinated by churches after coming to Christ. I form my theology strictly out of what convinces me from scripture, and I see those who spiritualize the word of God to make a Historicist or Preterist-oriented interpretation of prophecy fit as in effect essentially trying to fit a round peg into a square hole. It looks like it will work, but in reality it doesn't.

But God bless, and no offense. Maybe we'll go through things in more detail down the road, but I have read pieces on your position before and there is nothing in your argument that convicts me it is correct. But then you will say the same of mine because unfortunately I haven't had time to provide any evidence on my side yet either, even if you were receptive to it.

Down the road, God willing, and thanks for the reply.

Jon-E · Nov 23, 2021

JaumeJ said:

From the online Oxford Dictionary

"this
1 Used to identify a specific person or thing close at hand or being indicated or experienced."
https://www.lexico.com/definition/this

"that
1.1 Referring to the more distant of two things near to the speaker (the other, if specified, being identified by ‘this’)"
https://www.lexico.com/definition/that

Jesus' words:
"Truly I tell you, this generation will not pass away until all these things have taken place." (Matt 24:34, NRSV)

The writer of Hebrews referring to a generation more distant in time, "that":
"do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion, as on the day of testing in the wilderness, where your ancestors put me to the test, though they had seen my works for forty years. Therefore I was angry with that generation, and I said, ‘They always go astray in their hearts, and they have not known my ways.’" (Heb 3:8-10, NRSV)

The statement of Jesus in the following causes me to believe with certainty that Jesus was speaking to that generation of Jews in existence as he spoke.

"Truly I tell you, there are some standing here who will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.” (Matt 16:28, NRSV)

For this the preceding reasons, I see "this generation" to mean those people around him in that day:

"I tell you in solemn truth that the present generation will certainly not pass away without all these things having first taken place." (Matt 24:34, Weymouth)

"Remember that all these things will happen before the people now living have all died." (Matt 24:34, GNB92)

The idea that in Matt. 24:34 that "generation" means the race of the Jews will continue to exist to be out of the question. The accurate translation of "γενεά genea" is not translated so in the NT anywhere. The KJV translation as "nation" in Phil. 2:15 is corrected in the later translations to the accurate rendering, "generation".

CS1 · Nov 23, 2021

Blain said:

the carnal mind will not see anything nor will a double-minded person. It's almost like hearing an unsaved family member who needs God help and come to me for it, and I provide the help they need and tell them to pray and ask God for Help and they say to me

" did pray and it did not work". Live like a devil get into a bad situation and throw up a prayer and expect God to React immediately to your prayer in your time of need when you have asked HIM repeatedly to stay out of your life; Please forgive the Lord Almighty if He is doing what you have asked Him to do for the past 5, 10, 15, and 20 years and not answering your Latto ticket numbers for the big win.

There is only one reason why a person doesn't see God move, just one. They ask not in faith.

Jesus said in Matthew 21:22 "And whatever things you ask in prayer, believing, you will receive.”
Jesus also said in John 15:7 If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, you will ask what you desire, and it shall be done for you.

James 1:6

But let him ask in faith, with no doubting, for he who doubts is like a wave of the sea driven and tossed by the wind.

Jon-E · Nov 23, 2021

Vindicator said:

Hello Vindicator, I want to up front apologize to you for my impatient tone and overly critical spirit in my reply to you. There are great men of God out of the past who do understand Joel 2:31 as referring to the last day as you do, so I should not have spoken so quickly or labeled you by that one point.

Back in the 1970s when I began to realize I'd been taught a few things I found to be actually contradicted in the Bible, I really began to study deeply and I spent time in a large used bookstore as well as the usual Bible Book Stores of the time and I focused on purchasing commentaries and theology textbooks out of the past. I began to see what a stark difference there was between what was taught as the biblical Christian faith in years past, to what is so commonly heard today from the pulpits.

In 1995 I went online and quickly found unmoderated Christian newsgroups that were rather free wheeling in their debates over various teachings of Scripture. Maybe four of the top debate topics were on abortion, salvation by grace alone, homosexuality and predictive prophecy. The debates could get quite harsh, rough; but, I found the challenges in debating on those newsgroups a great way to study deeply and learn. I was challenged over and over when I'd be confronted with a different view of Scripture to which I had no ready answer put to silence, so I had to dig and study hard to see if I was correct, or did I need to change my view or refine it. At the time, many of those on the newsgroups were Pastors and men in seminary with knowledge of the Greek and Hebrew, so I had to learn how to use the many language helps for one like me who cannot write in Hebrew or Greek.

Anyway, I confess, my discussion or debate approach can at times sound combative and I really do not mean it so in my heart.

I appreciate your kind spirit and I'll do my best to reply in the same manner, as you are a brother and deserve it. I hope we can continue to study and challenge each other!

Vindicator · Nov 23, 2021

Jon-E said:

Then you'll be glad to know I didn't even pick up on any of that from you, LoL. I'm a four year veteran of the forums myself, so I'm used to far worse.

And yes, I was telling someone just yesterday that being tested is what forums are really good for; they test you mentally, theologically and even emotionally.

Between Posts #18 and #22, it appears you bring up interesting verses for discussion, so looking forward to talking more in the future.

Thanks for the courteous post!

Blain · Nov 23, 2021

GRACE_ambassador said:

thanl you for your response it is choke full of good things to ponder and dig into, if I may be a little honest I had a kind of vision not to long ago perhaps a couple months ago where I saw me yet it wasn't me I didn't have all the physical damage and illness I have now I felt pure clean and strong I had the faith to shake a mountain if I asked for something it was given if I declared something it was so and I stood solely on the foundation of scripture it was my rock my shoes on my feet it was woven into my inner being and even though I have memory propblems i could quote any verse perfectly not like now where often times I am reminded of a scripture but still have to look it up.

I was in a church I have never been to lots of people in there seemed dead like they were just going through the motions a stale kind of state of being I felt God call me to go on stage and speak and I was at first a bit uneasy about it because I knew whatever he wanted me to do was going to be major it was going to be a radical act of God through me but did so anyways.

As soon as I got on stage I instantly started to speak the words just flooded out of my mouth I don't remember what I was saying but whatever it was there was actual power in my words the people became consumed by this holy power their spirits became alive their souls had life in them a fire blazed inside them and I commanded for their illness and anything their bodies had that was ailing them to be gone for their chains to be shattered into pieces even as I just remember this vision I am still kind of stunned at the power in the words I commanded.

For a good wehile now I have felt that God has something huge for me an amazing calling but that I have to wait because it is not time yet, I have felt that it has something to do with the end times I have no idea what it is when it is or if I am just imagining it but I do know what I believe and even if I myself have never seen it for myself I know that anything is possible with him that no shackle is more powerful than him that all it takes is a single prayer to change everything and I hope that in going down this path with him my beliefs will be proven right that the God of jacob lives that we are his ambassadors and that if one simply believes we will his hand move like we did before.

Blain · Nov 23, 2021

CS1 said:

Yes this is true and and for many it seems that we could do a better job at being heavenly minded I am not innocent in this but even when my every thought and every passion was foir him there still seemed to be something that didn't allow me to see the wonders God does the best way to explain it is that it felt locked not that I couldn't have it but rather I couldn't have it yet because the door was locked and I didn't have the key.

Jon-E · Nov 23, 2021

Vindicator said:

The following is a typical way I approach a study on Scripture teachings, this is about what control faith has -

Does man control the power of God by his faith or lack thereof?

"And he could there do no mighty work, save that he laid his hands upon a few sick folk, and healed them. And he marveled because of their unbelief..." (Mark 6:5-6a, ERV)

"And he did not many mighty works there because of their unbelief." (Matt 13:58, ERV)

I compare translations when starting to study a verse and in the above, there is no major disagreement.

When in the gospels I then check for the parallels and I found the two above record the same event. In Mark, it basically says Jesus could not and Matthew records it did not.

I can see that there is a distinct difference between a "could not" and a "did not". But I'm not a library of Christian thought on this, so I consult commentaries to see what reasons are given that are supported by comparing Scripture with Scripture, and what makes common sense to a Christian. I typically check the following commentaries I value highly to give myself various perspectives.

Adam Clarke - Methodist, Arminian, pretty much followed by the Weslyans, Holiness & Pentecostals
Matthew Poole - A Puritan, Presbyterian
John Gill - An old fashioned Particular Baptist
Heinrich Meyer - Lutheran and Greek scholar

Clarke: "Unbelief and contempt drive Christ out of the heart, as they did out of his own country. Faith seems to put the almighty power of God into the hands of men; whereas unbelief appears, to tie up even the hands of the Almighty. A man, generally speaking, can do but little good among his relatives, because it is difficult for them to look with the eyes of faith upon one whom they have been accustomed to behold with the eyes of the flesh." *Comments on Matt. 13:58

Poole: "he could not, not from a defect of power, but the exercise of Divine power is always regulated by wisdom, and in consistency with his wisdom he could do no mighty works there: for the end of our Saviour’s miracles being either to convert unbelievers to the faith of the gospel, or to confirm weak believers in it, he foresaw that the performing of miracles there would be without any saving effect, and suspended his miraculous power. Besides, he was highly provoked by their obstinate infidelity, and would not work great wonders amongst them; only be cures a few sick persons." *Comments on Mark 6:5

Meyer: "This does not include the idea of unsuccessful attempts, but what is meant is, that the unwillingness of the people to acknowledge the greatness of His person (Mat 13:55) compelled Jesus, partly on moral (because of their unworthiness) and partly also on psychical grounds (because the condition of faith was wanting), to make but a limited use of His miraculous power" *Comment on Matt. 13:58

Gill: "not that Christ had no power in himself to work miracles, though their unbelief and contempt of him were very great; but it was not fit and proper that he should do any there, since such were their prejudices against him: it is an usual way of speaking with the Hebrews, when either it is not "fit" and proper that a thing should be done, or they "will" not do it, to say it cannot be done; see Ge 19:22; and even it is said of God himself, "So that the Lord could no longer bear, because of your evil doings", Jer 44:22. Not but that he could if he would, but he would not; nor was it fit and proper that he should."

While I really like Clarke and learn a lot from him, I think he is all wrong here. I see a biblical common sense understanding in Poole and Gill.

I look to see the reasoning in a commentary, not just who wrote the commentary. Now, what about throwing a mountain into the sea by our faith?

CS1 · Nov 23, 2021

Jon-E said:

The following is a typical way I approach a study on Scripture teachings, this is about what control faith has -

Does man control the power of God by his faith or lack thereof?

"And he could there do no mighty work, save that he laid his hands upon a few sick folk, and healed them. And he marveled because of their unbelief..." (Mark 6:5-6a, ERV)

"And he did not many mighty works there because of their unbelief." (Matt 13:58, ERV)

I compare translations when starting to study a verse and in the above, there is no major disagreement.

When in the gospels I then check for the parallels and I found the two above record the same event. In Mark, it basically says Jesus could not and Matthew records it did not.

I can see that there is a distinct difference between a "could not" and a "did not". But I'm not a library of Christian thought on this, so I consult commentaries to see what reasons are given that are supported by comparing Scripture with Scripture, and what makes common sense to a Christian. I typically check the following commentaries I value highly to give myself various perspectives.

Adam Clarke - Methodist, Arminian, pretty much followed by the Weslyans, Holiness & Pentecostals
Matthew Poole - A Puritan, Presbyterian
John Gill - An old fashioned Particular Baptist
Heinrich Meyer - Lutheran and Greek scholar

Clarke: "Unbelief and contempt drive Christ out of the heart, as they did out of his own country. Faith seems to put the almighty power of God into the hands of men; whereas unbelief appears, to tie up even the hands of the Almighty. A man, generally speaking, can do but little good among his relatives, because it is difficult for them to look with the eyes of faith upon one whom they have been accustomed to behold with the eyes of the flesh." *Comments on Matt. 13:58

Poole: "he could not, not from a defect of power, but the exercise of Divine power is always regulated by wisdom, and in consistency with his wisdom he could do no mighty works there: for the end of our Saviour’s miracles being either to convert unbelievers to the faith of the gospel, or to confirm weak believers in it, he foresaw that the performing of miracles there would be without any saving effect, and suspended his miraculous power. Besides, he was highly provoked by their obstinate infidelity, and would not work great wonders amongst them; only be cures a few sick persons." *Comments on Mark 6:5

Meyer: "This does not include the idea of unsuccessful attempts, but what is meant is, that the unwillingness of the people to acknowledge the greatness of His person (Mat 13:55) compelled Jesus, partly on moral (because of their unworthiness) and partly also on psychical grounds (because the condition of faith was wanting), to make but a limited use of His miraculous power" *Comment on Matt. 13:58

Gill: "not that Christ had no power in himself to work miracles, though their unbelief and contempt of him were very great; but it was not fit and proper that he should do any there, since such were their prejudices against him: it is an usual way of speaking with the Hebrews, when either it is not "fit" and proper that a thing should be done, or they "will" not do it, to say it cannot be done; see Ge 19:22; and even it is said of God himself, "So that the Lord could no longer bear, because of your evil doings", Jer 44:22. Not but that he could if he would, but he would not; nor was it fit and proper that he should."

While I really like Clarke and learn a lot from him, I think he is all wrong here. I see a biblical common sense understanding in Poole and Gill.

I look to see the reasoning in a commentary, not just who wrote the commentary. Now, what about throwing a mountain into the sea by our faith?

the false narrative that anyone control God is foolishness. However, without Faith, it is impossible to please God. God is not controlled by man but HE response to faith.

Blain · Nov 23, 2021

CS1 said:

If one attempts to control God's will they don't have true faith, if one has the faith to believe they will always remember Jesus even said if it be your will. However I think anyone who has true faith would instinctively ask according to his will, when we are in tune with the spirit we naturally know the way to go.

For now I am learning all I can about this and starting with small things while I would absolutely love for him to heal my damaged eyes which makes it very difficult to read very much I simply asked him last night for a dream.
I said to him if this is the path you want me to go and if you promise to guide my steps every step of the way in this then please give me a dream as proof, to be honest I was unsure if he would but then last night I had a dream where I saw something I had lost and had been looking for but just couldn't find it

After I woke up I remembered where I saw it in the dream and decided to look and bingo there it was exactly like in the dream, maybe it is a bit of a stretch to think this was him answering my prayer after all it's not that amazing but I figure how can I hope to see the bigger things if I ignore the little ones you know?

soberxp · Nov 23, 2021

Blain said:

I appreciate everyones responses, though I have never seen or recieved a miracle I have always believed in them and I believe it only takes one prayer to change everything even though most of my prayers seem to fall on deaf ears I can pray for someone but rarely does my prayer ever change their situation I can ask for healing for myself or others but never once has healing happened and yet I still believe in these things I don't think God changes and as far as whether or not it is for today personally I think it still is in fact I think considering how close we are to the end of the end times the final seven years it has never been more for today.
I mean lets be honest we live in an unbelieving world few can think of miracles as a real thing especially those in the world but yes even other believers.

Anytime they are testified of the first initial thought in most peoples minds is skepticism ,many feign miracles and others who do see real miracles are met with skepticism. And you know a little testimony from me in this matter it is true I have never seen a real miracle but a few times I have spoken for something to happen hearing an inner voice say test me in these things and I did and they actually happened just as I said they would as if they were spoken into happening

Even as I was writing this thread speaking on miracles a song came on speaking about how miracles are still for today and to believe I mean if that isn't GGod's voice I don't know what is. And I have to admit just thinking about growing in this area with God watching as his hand moves seeing my faith grow firm as iron being able to see a horrible or impossible situation and just having my arms out stepping back saying whatch what my God can do.... it makes my spirit jump inside me oh how it excites me to be able to praise the God of impossible to say to the world the God of jacob lives and here is my proof I just feel a stirring something drawing me to this area and I want to explore it to test the waters i just don't know how to get started

God's purpose is not to cure our physical diseases, but to cure our spiritual diseases.
Just as when Jesus healed people, the scribes and Pharisees said:""They are sinners."

Please pray for all humankind can be saved.it only takes one prayer to change everything .

Blain · Nov 23, 2021

soberxp said:

My purpose in this isn't simply to recieve or see healing but rather I want to see exactly what faith can do, exactly how far can we go. I want to see for myself what God can do for one who has faith and I want to see his hand move incredible ways that goes with saving lost souls as well.
I have asked God in the last two years to take me deeper and then I felt lead to dig deeper in faith and to test the waters I expect that if I do indeed grow in this area my relationship with him will sky rocket and I can be used in many more ways for his purpose

soberxp · Nov 24, 2021

Blain said:

I understand what you mean.
For example，we pray for all can be saved,But we can't accept some people，such as It could be your enemy，Maybe someone who hurt you，Maybe a certain country，This is the mismatch between behavior and confidence，do you remember Job? He is our best example.Just look to God.

Hope may help you a little.

Blain · Nov 24, 2021

soberxp said:

It is true that it may very well be that there are some I cannot help and it may even be ture that I myself cannot be healed but either way I will trust him in his decision.

Blain · Dec 15, 2021

I don't really know how to put this but lately God has been placing on my heart the aspect of faith something more than simply believing something more than doctrine I feel; it inside and it moves in my heart. Where is he leading me where is he guiding me? What exactly is this faith he is wanting me to go in? what is stirring inide me? I feel it buyt cannot describe it I get a glimpse of it but cannot see it, how easy it seems it the yoke appears so light yet I cannot perceive it
How I long it top understand how I long to take it as a child does yet I overcomplicate it but I feel the stiring I sense the working inside yet something blocks me something withholds me I don't know ehat it is but something keeps me at bay

Even so as weary as I may be I keep fast to what I know is true and that is that he is God and he will somehow bring to me the teacher I need it may be a simple post online or perhaps a person I will encounter on the way but I can feel a stirring I just don't know the way. I feel a warrior a strenghtemer a life giver inside me yet I cannot bring it out I cannot summon the one I sense inside.

I feel it in my bones I feel it in my soul but who can teache me who can show me the way who has he called to help others like me who sense the call but cannot find it on thier own? I write only to speak my heart and if I should speak my heart then let the ones who were called to teach and build other like me be the ones whom would be willing to speak for I am a stranger in this land and wish not to be lost in the way I should go. Let those who would know of the fire I speak of speak and not be silent so that I in turn may be one who guides those lost in a foreign land such as this for I to feel the calling yet do not know the way

JaumeJ · Dec 15, 2021

Blain, I too have been experiencing glimpses of revealed truths. Perhaps many others are also. My prayers are for your guidance, and that of all. God bless you..j

G00WZ · Dec 18, 2021

Blain said:

I would just tell you simply that it's not the lack of faith, it's more of an issue with not believing God.
In this world we are conformed and conditioned to accept the things of this world more than being responsive and affirming
the things of God which are first and foremost spirit and unseen to us, but spoken of in scripture.
For example when a person feels sick they automatically accept it or the doctors report of it over scripture because they can "See" it or "feel it" and have evidence of it.... It takes absolutely zero faith to get sick because according to the rules of this world if you see it or experience it you automatically believe.... But with God its completely opposite, you have to first affirm and come into revelation/knowledge of what is unseen and according to scripture before He reveals it. Most normal people or even unlearned Christians struggle with the concept of living to something that they cannot see or experience yet because that's just not how we have been taught. They have accepted mediocrity, ignorance and the lack of foreknowledge of God as the standard,
and because of this they see no miracles because they live in darkness. Most of the time they live this way by default because they simply know no better and need instruction or they need to abandon all that they know and allow themselves to have a radical change of thinking and doing things.

Matthew 13:57-58
57And they took offense at Him. But Jesus said to them, “Only in his hometown and in his own household is a prophet without honor.” 58And He did not do many miracles there, because of their unbelief.

It's the same thing with scripture, the world finds it offensive and would rather have its own content rather than accept and affirm the truth.
Because they don't accept the truth by affirming to and living to it above what they think that they know, they don't get the miracles it's just that simple.

I actually teach people how to use faith, and it isn't a hard thing to learn or to practice, it just takes a whole lot of getting out of your comfort zones and sometimes a lot of unlearning if filled with too many religious nonbiblical teachings.

kleronomos · Dec 18, 2021

Blain said:

Look at the first line of your signature. Just because you don't recognize them or 'personally' get to see and experience them, doesn't mean they aren't taking place.

John 4:46 So Jesus came again into Cana of Galilee, where he made the water wine. And there was a certain nobleman, whose son was sick at Capernaum. 47 When he heard that Jesus was come out of Judaea into Galilee, he went unto him, and besought him that he would come down, and heal his son: for he was at the point of death. 48 Then said Jesus unto him, Except ye see signs and wonders, ye will not believe. 49 The nobleman saith unto him, Sir, come down ere my child die. 50 Jesus saith unto him, Go thy way; thy son liveth. And the man believed the word that Jesus had spoken unto him, and he went his way. 51 And as he was now going down, his servants met him, and told him, saying, Thy son liveth. 52 Then enquired he of them the hour when he began to amend. And they said unto him, Yesterday at the seventh hour the fever left him. 53 So the father knew that it was at the same hour, in the which Jesus said unto him, Thy son liveth: and himself believed, and his whole house. 54 This is again the second miracle that Jesus did, when he was come out of Judaea into Galilee.

Had he not asked the question, would he have known for sure the miracle took place or would he have just ascribed it 'to life'?

Maybe in the asking of this question a little miracle in itself can be found. Maybe someone needed to be reminded of these verses so they were not deceived when they otherwise would have been. We don't know, we take it on faith

Matthew 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

2 Thessalonians 2:9 Even Him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

Revelation 16:14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.

Blain · Dec 18, 2021

G00WZ said:

You know even though I have always believed without receiving it has always bothered me that my faith would not be evidence of receiving. But from the beginning of my faith sight has always been in my prayers to see with his eyes not my own and I even prophesied my own demise with how I said if I lose my own sight if I could finally see with his then I would accept it I said I don't need these eyes to see and now my eyes are severely damaged.
But I look back at my journey with him seeing how sight has been a major factor in my faith and now believe I lost my sight specifically so that his power could be seen and known that I would be a testimony, even now I say to myself my eyes will be healed I don't know how or when but when I say it to myself it feels true and solid.
I feel inside the stirring the need to break free from all the chains I placed on myself I want so badly to step back and say to people let me show you what my God can do but there is something that blocks it I don't know what it is but it is like something needs to be unlocked.
I just need guidence I need someone to teach me how to talk in the spirit like this, I know his voice and I follow the flow of the spirit so when I say something in the spirit I can tell when it is from him. He said through me my eyes will be healed but I wonder what it is exactly that needs to be unlocked what is it exactly that keeps me from being able to see his wonders for myself?

Biblical faith what can it really do?

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