Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances
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how does this jive with what you said here:
every single one of those 613 laws are directly from the Torah and every single one of them are directly from the mouth of God. 10 of them are engraved in stone by God's own finger. one if them is "love your neighbor" ((Lev. 19)) -- another is "love the Lord" ((Deut. 6))
not one is "from man"
and that's including proscription against mixing fabric, specifically wool & cotton.
did you just suddenly & radically change your mind?
every single one of those 613 laws are directly from the Torah and every single one of them are directly from the mouth of God. 10 of them are engraved in stone by God's own finger. one if them is "love your neighbor" ((Lev. 19)) -- another is "love the Lord" ((Deut. 6))
not one is "from man"
and that's including proscription against mixing fabric, specifically wool & cotton.
did you just suddenly & radically change your mind?
me personally? i don't think it is.
but if what some of my fellow forum-dwellers say is true, the implication is that because of my socks and some other items of clothing, i have been living in unrepentant willful sin for 40 years.
my conscience was not offended previous to the dialogue brought up by this thread and similar ones, but ain't the point of threads like this to inspire us to re-evaluate our conscience?
but if what some of my fellow forum-dwellers say is true, the implication is that because of my socks and some other items of clothing, i have been living in unrepentant willful sin for 40 years.
my conscience was not offended previous to the dialogue brought up by this thread and similar ones, but ain't the point of threads like this to inspire us to re-evaluate our conscience?
so two very simple questions:
(1) are Leviticus 19:19 and Deuteronomy 22:11 from God?
(2) are Christians judged by these laws?
scripture itself very clearly answers (1) but if i recall correctly i've read someone saying that the Torah is basically a forgery and not scripture ((a 'faithful historical account' perhaps but when it says God gave these laws, that part is a lie))
1 + 2 = is it a sin to wear these nice socks = do i blaspheme by thanking God for being blessed with nice socks ((i.e. i attributed wickedness to God, because if the socks are sinful, they originated from Satan, not God))
(1) are Leviticus 19:19 and Deuteronomy 22:11 from God?
(2) are Christians judged by these laws?
scripture itself very clearly answers (1) but if i recall correctly i've read someone saying that the Torah is basically a forgery and not scripture ((a 'faithful historical account' perhaps but when it says God gave these laws, that part is a lie))
1 + 2 = is it a sin to wear these nice socks = do i blaspheme by thanking God for being blessed with nice socks ((i.e. i attributed wickedness to God, because if the socks are sinful, they originated from Satan, not God))
who's talking like a pharisee?
it looks like obvious contradictions in what you're saying, and i'm trying to sort out what the truth is.
the Bible says those laws often counted up to 613 are directly from the mouth of God.
are they from God or from man, then?
is scripture wrong?
is Leviticus 19 from God or from man?
am i under this law or not?
it looks like obvious contradictions in what you're saying, and i'm trying to sort out what the truth is.
the Bible says those laws often counted up to 613 are directly from the mouth of God.
are they from God or from man, then?
is scripture wrong?
is Leviticus 19 from God or from man?
am i under this law or not?
R
It's been many years since I visited this subject. And I told myself to review it before posting and I didn't. I know the law was written down somewhere. That goes without saying. The obvious reference to it is made in scripture itself, as you point out. I'll have to reference some Messianic resources to answer your question. Maybe I just flat got it backwards and remember the argument wrong and it is the Rabbinal law that was oral. Makes more sense that way anyway.
I've debated this passage with many Messianics in past years and what I do remember is "the tradition of men, according to the elementary principles of the world" is talking about rabbinical add-on law, not the law of Moses itself, even though it is clear the debt of the law of Moses itself is not against us anymore either. For Paul to be speaking so negatively of the law of Moses itself does not fit. He would never do that. He did the exact opposite.
The judging that Paul is resisting is in regard to the rabbinical laws about how to observe the feasts and sabbaths of the law. Since the requirement to keep Moses' laws of Sabbaths and Feasts in the first place is now obsolete how much more so the rabbinical laws added on to them.
I've debated this passage with many Messianics in past years and what I do remember is "the tradition of men, according to the elementary principles of the world" is talking about rabbinical add-on law, not the law of Moses itself, even though it is clear the debt of the law of Moses itself is not against us anymore either. For Paul to be speaking so negatively of the law of Moses itself does not fit. He would never do that. He did the exact opposite.
The judging that Paul is resisting is in regard to the rabbinical laws about how to observe the feasts and sabbaths of the law. Since the requirement to keep Moses' laws of Sabbaths and Feasts in the first place is now obsolete how much more so the rabbinical laws added on to them.
as far as i know ((and i am not at all studied on the particulars)) there are no certain sets of laws that were never written down, that the Torah was quite definitely written down and as carefully as possible copied and preserved, and that 'tradition' is found in the Talmud ((also written down)) and consists of interpretation of The Law ((Torah, the books of Moses, in fact all of the OT)) -- for example a rabbi may take Leviticus 19:19 and after much thought, meditation and prayer, decide that in order to fully devote himself to keeping it, he should not only refrain from mixing cotton and wool, but cotton and silk, wool and any kind of flax, etc.
said rabbi would then teach all his disciples to keep the Law in this way, and he might draw philosophically a precept from 'mixing fabrics' to other applications, and forbid his disciples to do such things as using nails and wood in the same article of furniture, with the idea that he is keeping the spirit of the Law this way.
that's how we get 'eating with unwashed hands' -- not a Law given by God, but a tradition that arose from seeking to physically keep the Law ever more faithfully, with the idea that righteousness comes from physical observation, and the more physically stringent, the more righteous. this hand-washing was for ceremonial purification, not for germ-spread prevention.
thus by 'tradition of men' to focus on satisfying the righteousness of the law by stricter and stricter physical observation of it, customs arise and are 'added' by commonly agreed application of it to the elemental things of the world. as in Colossians 3, where Paul goes on to chastise the reader for foolishly submitting themselves to physical proscription ((do not handle! do not touch! do not eat!)) -- proscriptions that rise up from the very human tradition of trying to make themselves approved spiritually by what they do physically.
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i appreciate you replying; didn't mean to drag you into what you don't wish to get yourself involved in. can't say as i blame ya
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The Law of Moses, is against anyone who has ever sinned. Paul never speaks negatively of the Law. His point is that Man is what was wrong under the Law. What Paul says almost exclusively, is Him giving revelation into scripture and prophecy in the Ot. the thing is with the law of Moses, is this when it is written, it is for the very Purpose of Being a witness against the People it is given to. God tells Moses plainly " you are about to die, when you do this People will utterly turn away and turn to other gods and break My covenant, and provoke me to furious anger upon them and i will hide My face from them."
then Moses writes the Law, and tells the People " Place this law beside the ark of the testimony, and there it will remain as a witness against you." well God would come above the Mercy seat on the ark and commube with them, at His side, was the Law of Moses, continually accusing and testifying against sinners, it is Placed Beside the ark, for that Purpose where it would Be continually in the presence of the ark of the covenant. it is called the ark of the covenant, as soon as they place Gods commandments inside.
in revelation 5. A Lamb appears and aproaches the One sitting on the throne who has a Book in His right Hand, the book is sealed with seven seals. The Lamb who Has proven Worthy to open the Book, takes the Book from His hands...opens the seals.
this Little Book, is the Mosaic Law the witness constantly accusing Mankind at the side of Gods Presence. the Law itself is Good, for the sinners it is a death sentance. and doesnt offer Life to the transgressors. Jesus was perfect, when He was exalted He that fulfilled the Law of Moses, has Now Become One seated at Gods Side, who is a constant ADVOCATE for us, who is interceeding for us and Not accusing us. thats why Jesus is Pictured at the side of God, the Word of God seated at His side.
this in the Ot, is the book of the Law that was Beside Gods seat. paul always says the Law is Good righteous and Holy, we Mankind are the problem with the Law. it had a Purpose it still does, its Meant to Lead People to Christ when they realize they are condemned By the Law of Moses and Need a savior from its curse. He took the book of the Law of Moses away. and He tore the curtain in the temple so that we see the ark of the coveannt ( ten commandments) in the tabernacle in Heaven. and we then understand why its Now about " the commandments of God, and the testimony of Jesus Christ. ......and Not the Law of Moses.
the Law and Prophets were preached until John" since then the Kingdom of God is Preached......the Law is No More Preached aa the authority , it remains still in its entirety in order to reveal sin in Man and lead sinners to repentance through Jesus Christ it has its Purpose still.
