Book of Enoch

[SummaScriptura]

People 450-Feet Tall?

7:12 Whose stature was each three hundred cubits. These devoured all which the labor of men produced; until it became impossible to feed them; 7:13 When they turned themselves against men, in order to devour them; 7:14 And began to injure birds, beasts, reptiles, and fishes, to eat their flesh one after another, and to drink their blood. 7:15 Then the earth reproved the unrighteous.

Taken from the book of Enoch

This incorrect info comes from some translations which say the giants were "300 cubits" tall. This verse has been corrected in modern translations to reflect the best textual evidence we now have. As it turns out, Enoch 7:2 says nothing about how tall the giants were.

Here is an example, typical of modern versions, it is a correction of the text from an older Greek copy of Enoch 7:2, (Nickelsburg/Vanderkam 2001),

And they conceived from them and bore to them great giants. And the giants begot Nephilim, and to the Nephilim were born Elioud- and they were growing in accordance with their greatness.

In order to be fair-minded in our treatemnt of texts from antiquity, we should go to the original languages when possible or if this is not possible we should resort to multiple translators.

 

[kenisyes]

I think of all the pseudepigrapha as Bible commentary. In the old days people wrote stories, rather than spoke logically as we do. That's why we have trouble understanding it. Being commentary makes it uninspired, but as accurate as anything any of us might say today about our opinion of a specific passage. We must remember, the Library of Alexandria was destroyed, and might have held many books that would help understand it.

As an astronomer, what do you make of 1. The seven metal mountains, 2. The running angel in the earth, and 3. the fact that the length of day times are for the latitude of Ireland, and not for that of the Sinai peninsula? By the way, are you aware that those same length of day times are quoted in the Mayan Chulam Balam of Mani? (I hope my spelling is right on all that)

Since you mention the Dead Sea scrolls, what do you think of the fact that the Giant Mahwah had to fly to get to Enoch? (this is in the new batch held back until the early 1990's)

 

[SummaScriptura]

I think of all the pseudepigrapha as Bible commentary. In the old days people wrote stories, rather than spoke logically as we do. That's why we have trouble understanding it. Being commentary makes it uninspired, but as accurate as anything any of us might say today about our opinion of a specific passage. We must remember, the Library of Alexandria was destroyed, and might have held many books that would help understand it.

I note with interest your view.

As an astronomer, what do you make of 1. The seven metal mountains, 2. The running angel in the earth, and 3. the fact that the length of day times are for the latitude of Ireland, and not for that of the Sinai peninsula? By the way, are you aware that those same length of day times are quoted in the Mayan Chulam Balam of Mani? (I hope my spelling is right on all that)

I have been wondering for the longest time how one can determine the longitude from which the Enochan calendar is observed! How did you figure this out? Please show me how I can calculate this myself. Thank you.

Since you mention the Dead Sea scrolls, what do you think of the fact that the Giant Mahwah had to fly to get to Enoch? (this is in the new batch held back until the early 1990's)

I noted that, and for me the jury is out. Besides, I'm not prepared to defend the Book of the Giants.

 

[kenisyes]

SummaScriptura: I said "latitude", not "longitude". You cannot determine longitude mathematically. A prize was awarded for the invention of the windup clock back in the 1600's, because it was the solution that made longitude possible to determine (just compute local time vs. the time at home in London, kept by the windup clock on your ship) and that tells you your time zone, and hence how far across the dangerous Atlantic you have come, thereby helping prevent mutiny from the sailors who thought you had overshot America and were about to fall off the edge.

The calculation of latitude is based on the tilt of the earth to the ecliptic. In the north, summer, the sun is 47 degrees higher in the sky than in winter. Opposite in the southern hemisphere. That keeps it up longer, since it's shadow hits the hemisphere longer, being up higher in the sky. There are mathematical tables that give you precision, but recall at the NorthPole winter is 6 months night and summer is 6 months day, because the arctic circle is where the sun hits at that season. Get a globe and a flashlight, move things around, and you'll get the idea. In England, winter days are about 7 hours if I remember right, in Florida they are closer to 11, and in Hawaii, they are almost equal year round. That's because the equator gets hit by the sun in every season about equally.

The Romans were probably the first people to notice this, since they were the first with an empire that traded with England on one end, and central Africa on the other. That supports the date of Enoch as fiction based on the Bible as seen by some Jewish scribe or commentator in the Roman period of conquest of Judea, just after the Maccibean period.

My question about Mahwah concerns the idea that Irish prehistory implies the nephalim had previously settled it. Not Scripture, but again, it would tell us how this Jewish writer and the Dead Sea scroll folks understood Genesis. That could be of benefit, since Enoch was very popular back then, and the Dead Sea Scroll community was fairly large. If many Jews thought the same way, it would give us an idea of what Jesus was trying to correct in their thinking, and might shed light on some of His choice of symbolism.

 

[SummaScriptura]

SummaScriptura: I said "latitude", not "longitude". You cannot determine longitude mathematically. A prize was awarded for the invention of the windup clock back in the 1600's, because it was the solution that made longitude possible to determine (just compute local time vs. the time at home in London, kept by the windup clock on your ship) and that tells you your time zone, and hence how far across the dangerous Atlantic you have come, thereby helping prevent mutiny from the sailors who thought you had overshot America and were about to fall off the edge.

The calculation of latitude is based on the tilt of the earth to the ecliptic. In the north, summer, the sun is 47 degrees higher in the sky than in winter. Opposite in the southern hemisphere. That keeps it up longer, since it's shadow hits the hemisphere longer, being up higher in the sky. There are mathematical tables that give you precision, but recall at the NorthPole winter is 6 months night and summer is 6 months day, because the arctic circle is where the sun hits at that season. Get a globe and a flashlight, move things around, and you'll get the idea. In England, winter days are about 7 hours if I remember right, in Florida they are closer to 11, and in Hawaii, they are almost equal year round. That's because the equator gets hit by the sun in every season about equally.

The Romans were probably the first people to notice this, since they were the first with an empire that traded with England on one end, and central Africa on the other. That supports the date of Enoch as fiction based on the Bible as seen by some Jewish scribe or commentator in the Roman period of conquest of Judea, just after the Maccibean period.

My question about Mahwah concerns the idea that Irish prehistory implies the nephalim had previously settled it. Not Scripture, but again, it would tell us how this Jewish writer and the Dead Sea scroll folks understood Genesis. That could be of benefit, since Enoch was very popular back then, and the Dead Sea Scroll community was fairly large. If many Jews thought the same way, it would give us an idea of what Jesus was trying to correct in their thinking, and might shed light on some of His choice of symbolism.

Yes, I meant latitude. Thanks I was just needing a pointer on the mechanics of this. So, Enoch 72, describes the longest day of the year as 16 hours and the shortest as 8. From that I gather latitude 49 is the right location. Is that your calculation? If I have this right that presents a real puzzle. Thank you.

 

[kenisyes]

I wish it were that simple, Summascriptora. I agree with your calculation, but I note that a correction must be made for other reasons. That's why you get 49 deg, just south of England, and I get a few degrees further north.

The length of day times are a sinusoidal function of the day of the year for anywhere on earth. The Enoch times are a linear function. That means the word "exactly" in ch. 72 is a figment of someone's imagination, as the exact times given represent nowhere on earth. Spiritually, the rabbis mention in the book of Jubilees that the year was supposed to have been either 360 or 364 days, but our sin changed it. [The dead Sea Scroll calendar assumes the same thing with the result that it predicts Jesus' birth at Passover, as opposed to the Temple calendar predicting it at Tabernacles. Reason backwards from when Zacharias father of John the Baptist came up for annual temple service based on Chronicles.] The same theory is sometimes applied cross-culturally in the ancient world to pi - God made it 3.0000 because God likes 3, but our sin changed it to 3.1415.... Not Scriptural, but it must be considered when we are in an unscriptural book. Presumably, Enoch is reporting what the author thought God would have wanted, but to reason backwards now requires a mathematical correction because of this problem.

The simplest way to allow for the correction is a basic geometric construction. Try drawing a line between the points on the sine curve, x-axis Dec. 21, y-axis night length +4 hours (16 hour night), and the point Mar. 21, +0 hours (12 hour night). You will see the linear approximation lies under the sine graph, and that means that the values for Jan. 21 and Feb. 21 (+2:40 and +1:20 are too low compared to reality for someplace on earth. If we assume the reported data is based on (say Roman traders to England) real-life observation, then all the data was rounded, and so we must move our line up on the y-axis to allow for the correction we must make on these two intermediate dates. That places the true observation for Dec. 21 higher than +4.00, and that is how I got my Ireland result.

You are right of course, even 49 degrees is a serious problem, and the higher it gets, the worse the problem gets. Now throw in how did the data get into a Mayan fortune telling book (before Cortez got there), and you must add the problem of who was saying that this data is so important that it should override obvious local data in two cultures on two continents 1500 years apart, and why?

Many people in this thread want to avoid the book of Enoch, but it was to the Jews what "The DaVinci Code" was to the Christians a few years ago. It was fiction, full of lies, but look at all the classes it started at churches, and look at all the people who started to look at the Bible again to try to prove it right or wrong. If we can minister that way because of erroneous fiction in our day, surely Jesus and the apostles took advantage of the same opportunity. What gems might we see in the gospels that we had missed until now, once we learned what the people were thinking about the Old Testament in Jesus' time?

 

[SummaScriptura]

<snip>You are right of course, even 49 degrees is a serious problem, and the higher it gets, the worse the problem gets. Now throw in how did the data get into a Mayan fortune telling book (before Cortez got there), and you must add the problem of who was saying that this data is so important that it should override obvious local data in two cultures on two continents 1500 years apart, and why?<snip>

I'm a bit baffled. I knew it should be possible to calculate this but until your first post I never tried to look it up. It sure is weird.

But its weird no matter your theory of the book's authorhip. Allowing for the sake of argument the BoE is a inter-testamental composition, who benefits from a calendar that doesn't work from the get-go?

Perhaps the author's point is that the reader can know he is in the end times because God's calendar no longer works and the fixed order of the heavens is becoming unglued?!

 

[Ariel82]

SummaScriptura: I said "latitude", not "longitude". You cannot determine longitude mathematically. A prize was awarded for the invention of the windup clock back in the 1600's, because it was the solution that made longitude possible to determine (just compute local time vs. the time at home in London, kept by the windup clock on your ship) and that tells you your time zone, and hence how far across the dangerous Atlantic you have come, thereby helping prevent mutiny from the sailors who thought you had overshot America and were about to fall off the edge.

The calculation of latitude is based on the tilt of the earth to the ecliptic. In the north, summer, the sun is 47 degrees higher in the sky than in winter. Opposite in the southern hemisphere. That keeps it up longer, since it's shadow hits the hemisphere longer, being up higher in the sky. There are mathematical tables that give you precision, but recall at the NorthPole winter is 6 months night and summer is 6 months day, because the arctic circle is where the sun hits at that season. Get a globe and a flashlight, move things around, and you'll get the idea. In England, winter days are about 7 hours if I remember right, in Florida they are closer to 11, and in Hawaii, they are almost equal year round. That's because the equator gets hit by the sun in every season about equally.

did you factor in precession?

and longitude is determined mathematically but can not be done solely on position of the stars but needs an accurate clock for a frame of reference to the position of the stars. you have to know which stars or where the sun should be located at that time of day as well as the time.

when in calculating latitude all you have to know is the altitude of the north star. however the tilt of the Earth was different 2000 years ago then now. therefore you calculations would have to factor that in..

but hey the babylonians had quite a bit of worldly knowledge but that is different from spiritual truth...

 

[SummaScriptura]

I'm slogging thru all the info I can find concerning precession online.

Apparenlty, one complete precession cycle is about 75 years, right? So from a single point on the globe, how much variation of degree would one see in one precession cycle? Do we have insight into changes in the earth's tilt and its precession say, 4,000 to 5,000 years ago?

 

[kenisyes]

No, Ariel 82, I did not factor in precession, sun slow, flatness at the poles or sidereal day. We are discussing potential corrections on the order of 3 degrees of latitude at about 49 deg north, and these will be small effects by comparison.

Summa, I had a thought last night that could resolve the whole issue. Originally I moved the line up, because I was working from the derivative; that means I thought the 1:20 min. per month was a more important measurement than the four hours. If I move the sine graph up to match the line, instead of the the line up to match the 1:20 decline, the correction goes the other way, and the latitude becomes not 49+4. but 49-4, and that's 45. Remember too, we are clearly dealing with water clocks, sundials, or hourglasses, not clocks as we know them, and we are dealing with a culture that has just invented trigonometric tables, and has an idea of what God "wanted", not of measuring reality (note Enoch's year is 364 days). All of these tell us that accuracy was not their strong suit.

My idea is this: let's suppose they knew the earth is round (Pliny's Natural History says they did) and they envisioned the sun going around the earth, and they also knew it changes its angle as it comes out of each "gate". Suppose they said, let's just figure out what it "should be halfway up the earth", since the round earth changes the appearance anyway. They decided to use 45 degrees, since that's halfway from 0 to 90, and took the sine of 45deg=.7. Multiply the 9 parts of darkness by this and you get 6.3 parts must be reserved for darkness at that latitude. That leaves 2.7 for daylight increase in summer. They rounded to 3, and decided that must be right because God likes 3's. Now, with no measurements, you've set up what "God wants" and so that is what God must have showed Enoch. Under this theory, it's all just philosophy, and is meaningful only spiritually and culturally.

This idea is consistent with the type of thinking in ancient math texts I've read, so it must be considered. But it leaves a bigger question; why did they put 18 parts in the day? I checked the Bible references, and the Hebrews used a 24 hour day, with 3 or four watches to each night/day. The Egyptians used dekans (20 parts per day). I know of no culture that used 18 parts to the day. Simple solution: 9=3x3, and God likes 3's, so that's what God told Enoch to use?

And yes, the author would probably have agreed with the point that since God's calendar no longer works, we are getting close to judgment.

 

[SummaScriptura]

No, Ariel 82, I did not factor in precession, sun slow, flatness at the poles or sidereal day. We are discussing potential corrections on the order of 3 degrees of latitude at about 49 deg north, and these will be small effects by comparison.

Summa, I had a thought last night that could resolve the whole issue. Originally I moved the line up, because I was working from the derivative; that means I thought the 1:20 min. per month was a more important measurement than the four hours. If I move the sine graph up to match the line, instead of the the line up to match the 1:20 decline, the correction goes the other way, and the latitude becomes not 49+4. but 49-4, and that's 45. Remember too, we are clearly dealing with water clocks, sundials, or hourglasses, not clocks as we know them, and we are dealing with a culture that has just invented trigonometric tables, and has an idea of what God "wanted", not of measuring reality (note Enoch's year is 364 days). All of these tell us that accuracy was not their strong suit.

My idea is this: let's suppose they knew the earth is round (Pliny's Natural History says they did) and they envisioned the sun going around the earth, and they also knew it changes its angle as it comes out of each "gate". Suppose they said, let's just figure out what it "should be halfway up the earth", since the round earth changes the appearance anyway. They decided to use 45 degrees, since that's halfway from 0 to 90, and took the sine of 45deg=.7. Multiply the 9 parts of darkness by this and you get 6.3 parts must be reserved for darkness at that latitude. That leaves 2.7 for daylight increase in summer. They rounded to 3, and decided that must be right because God likes 3's. Now, with no measurements, you've set up what "God wants" and so that is what God must have showed Enoch. Under this theory, it's all just philosophy, and is meaningful only spiritually and culturally.

This idea is consistent with the type of thinking in ancient math texts I've read, so it must be considered. But it leaves a bigger question; why did they put 18 parts in the day? I checked the Bible references, and the Hebrews used a 24 hour day, with 3 or four watches to each night/day. The Egyptians used dekans (20 parts per day). I know of no culture that used 18 parts to the day. Simple solution: 9=3x3, and God likes 3's, so that's what God told Enoch to use?

And yes, the author would probably have agreed with the point that since God's calendar no longer works, we are getting close to judgment.

Thanks, your posts have been very helpful and helped me settle a question I'd had for years. The word "settle" belies that I find it not a little unsettling, and I'm afraid its raised even more questions!

 

[kenisyes]

Thank you, Summa. I have that problem all the time; each answer gives me more questions. I guess that's a good thing, though, right, if it keeps us seeking God's wisdom?

 

[Ariel82]

ok what numbers are you factoring?

you've piped my interest. you could go with the whole stone henge as an astronomical clock thing. they don't have to understand the movement of the planets around the sun to be able to predict sunrise and sunset and eclipses. they just have to have really good records over a long period of time and be able to see the mathematical patterns in the data and use that equation to predict future occurrences.

as for precession its a lot longer then 75 years....

its more like 26,000 years to complete a full cycle.

Precession of the Earth's Rotation Axis

On or around June 21 each year, the rays of the sun will be perpendicular to the Tropic of Cancer at 23°30' North latitude. This day is the summer solstice in the Northern Hemisphere. On this day, the earth's "circle of illumination" will be from the Arctic Circle on the far side of the earth (in relation to the sun) to the Antarctic Circle on the near side of the earth. The equator receives twelve hours of daylight, there's 24 hours of daylight at the North Pole and areas north of 66°30' N, and there's 24 hours of darkness at the South Pole and areas south of 66°30' S.

The Longest Day of the Year

ok i took more time to read the posts.

Enoch 72, describes the longest day of the year as 16 hours and the shortest as 8.

that would make it +4 hours more then the equator which at the summer solstice is 12 hrs.

12 hrs (24 hrs at pole - 12 hrs at equator) = 90 degrees (90 N - 0 )

therefore 4 hrs = 30 degrees

... that's just basic math.....

however since their hours were keep differently then modern time... its just a math problem....

 

[kenisyes]

Ariel, I certainly agree with that Scripture, and it occurs to me with regularity whenever I work on problems like this, On the other hand, you have to have been there with me through the weeks of discussions that some people I have known insist on having over calendar issues. There must be a way to draw the line between what is important and worthless babbling. We are also told to have nothing to do with useless genealogies, and two gospels begin with different genealogies of Jesus.

To the point at hand. You are right; Stonehenge is quite remarkable. Do you know that the stone circles are not true circles? If you measure them at exactly the right point, they give a value of pi=3? And they predict moon and sun positions as you say with remarkable accuracy. So is the Mayan calendar remarkable, and Babylonian sky measurements, and the Antikythera device (Greek navigational computer). But when we get to Israel, all we get is very limited math ability, except for the desire to express spirituality in numbers. and that's the whole problem; we can't be sure who wrote Enoch or who the writer might have talked to. This table could have some great mathematical accuracy in it, or it could be all imagination.

It's not that the issue is unimportant either: Enoch was a very important book to many of the people Jesus ministered to while He lived on earth. If we could know what they knew, it might help us understand Him better. If this is just another case of someone trying to pass off an "idealized calendar" like in the Dead Sea Scrolls, fine. But if Israelites thought that Enoch lived in Ireland? Irish prehistory has 5 different groups settling there before the flood. If we could ever show that those legends are referenced in Genesis and identify the children of Adam who formed them?

 

[SummaScriptura]

Why Ireland though? I mean the calendar of Enoch could be observed from anywhere along that parallel, no?

 

[kenisyes]

Most everywhere else is covered with snow and not terribly habitable. Also, no other northern country that i know of has pre-flood legends of any magnitude.

Of course, if you believe, as some do, that the continents were connected into one, then that changes the whole game plan for what might have been at that parallel of latitude. Or, more precisely, what they thought might have been at that parallel before the flood.