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"No supplements needed" obedience is not a supplement.
"the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise" -
again an abridged and truncated interpretation of what it means to believe the gospel and what is the gospel.
Like I said each to his own, You are free to believe in wrong doctrine. In the end Jesus will judge.
"the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise" -
again an abridged and truncated interpretation of what it means to believe the gospel and what is the gospel.
Like I said each to his own, You are free to believe in wrong doctrine. In the end Jesus will judge.
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Sugar coated double talk. There is a difference between obeying a command to become saved and obeying a command after we have been saved. You blend the commands to create salvation by faith and works.
So according to you, these Jews in Acts 2:38 (prior to repenting and receiving water baptism) had ALREADY believed the gospel?
In Acts 2:37, their "belief" at this point was "mental assent" that Jesus was the Messiah and they were guilty of crucifying Him. *That is not saving belief yet. Nothing is mentioned here about them trusting in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of their salvation, which explains why they still needed to repent and believe the gospel in that order.
In Acts 2:40-41, we read - And with many other words he solemnly testified and kept on exhorting them, saying, “Be saved from this perverse generation!” 41 So then, those who had received his word were (afterwards) baptized; and that day there were added about three thousand souls.
In Acts 4:4, we read - But many of those who had heard the message believed; and the number of the men came to be about five thousand.
In Acts 5:14, we read - And believers were increasingly added to the Lord, multitudes of both men and women.
So in Acts 2:38, "for the remission of sins" does not refer back to both clauses, "you all repent" and "each one of you be baptized," but refers only to the first. Peter is saying "repent unto the remission of your sins," the same as in Acts 3:19. The clause "each one of you be baptized" is parenthetical. This is exactly what Acts 3:19 teaches except that Peter omits the parenthesis.
In Acts 10:43 we read ..whoever believes in Him receives remission of sins. These Gentiles received the gift of the Holy Spirit - Acts 10:45 - when they believed on the Lord Jesus Christ - Acts 11:17 - (compare with Acts 16:31 - Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved) BEFORE water baptism - Acts 10:47. This is referred to as repentance unto life - Acts 11:18. *Hermeneutics.
Do you understand what it means to believe the gospel? I hear these same arguments that you present from those who attend the church of Christ (Campbellism) who also teach a watered down gospel and they reverse the scriptural order of repent and believe as well. Also, Romans 1:16 clearly states that the gospel is the power of God unto salvation to everyone that BELIEVES.. Yet according to you, those who believe the gospel are "still lost" until they repent and receive water baptism "afterwards," which negates Romans 1:16.
So according to you, these Jews in Acts 2:38 (prior to repenting and receiving water baptism) had ALREADY believed the gospel?
In Acts 2:37, their "belief" at this point was "mental assent" that Jesus was the Messiah and they were guilty of crucifying Him. *That is not saving belief yet. Nothing is mentioned here about them trusting in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of their salvation, which explains why they still needed to repent and believe the gospel in that order.
In Acts 2:40-41, we read - And with many other words he solemnly testified and kept on exhorting them, saying, “Be saved from this perverse generation!” 41 So then, those who had received his word were (afterwards) baptized; and that day there were added about three thousand souls.
In Acts 4:4, we read - But many of those who had heard the message believed; and the number of the men came to be about five thousand.
In Acts 5:14, we read - And believers were increasingly added to the Lord, multitudes of both men and women.
So in Acts 2:38, "for the remission of sins" does not refer back to both clauses, "you all repent" and "each one of you be baptized," but refers only to the first. Peter is saying "repent unto the remission of your sins," the same as in Acts 3:19. The clause "each one of you be baptized" is parenthetical. This is exactly what Acts 3:19 teaches except that Peter omits the parenthesis.
In Acts 10:43 we read ..whoever believes in Him receives remission of sins. These Gentiles received the gift of the Holy Spirit - Acts 10:45 - when they believed on the Lord Jesus Christ - Acts 11:17 - (compare with Acts 16:31 - Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved) BEFORE water baptism - Acts 10:47. This is referred to as repentance unto life - Acts 11:18. *Hermeneutics.
Do you understand what it means to believe the gospel? I hear these same arguments that you present from those who attend the church of Christ (Campbellism) who also teach a watered down gospel and they reverse the scriptural order of repent and believe as well. Also, Romans 1:16 clearly states that the gospel is the power of God unto salvation to everyone that BELIEVES.. Yet according to you, those who believe the gospel are "still lost" until they repent and receive water baptism "afterwards," which negates Romans 1:16.
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Doing what God commands is a good works worthy of rewards for the saved awaiting for the JSOC. Obtaining salvation through Christ believing in him or the gospel by putting your trust that alone Jesus saves is the gift of eternal life. Rom. 6:23b but the gift of God is eternal life through our Lord Jesus Christ.
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again and with reference to the green I highlighted above
just as with mikvah being used for conversion to Judaism, to illustrate that the conversion is sincere, so is the baptism spoken of by Peter
there was never any water on the altar any animal was sacrificed upon
the water that came from His side when the soldier pierced him with a spear came from INSIDE of Jesus (the pericardium is broken, water pours out)
most interpreters or teachers understand this as representational of the Holy Spirit and water is used as a metaphor for the Holy Spirit so that actually makes sense
factually, the water came from inside Jesus and was not on the outside for any sort of washing
that alone should give pause
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it is my understanding, gained from several years here, that many here do not attend church and make up their own 'rules'
this site is not an example of your average Christian church
we have all sorts here and myriad beliefs and some are not even Christian but they profess to be Christian
the world is a far bigger place than this chat site
this site is not an example of your average Christian church
we have all sorts here and myriad beliefs and some are not even Christian but they profess to be Christian
the world is a far bigger place than this chat site
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This perhaps shows their unwillingness to love the Lord as Jesus said "if you love me, keep my commandments" yet they maybe question of the sincerity of their belief. On the other hand those who trusted Christ, the only name given among men whereby we can be saved are given the power to become the sons of God John 1:12
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And to become sons and daughters of our Father in heaven [Romans 8] requires a set of responses and actions to be undertaken
by a 'believer' so that they may be converted. - Thus Romans 6 on water baptism precedes Romans 8 on the Holy Spirit.
Belief and faith must be put into action > submission and obedience.
It always starts with Acts 2:38 and never changes.
by a 'believer' so that they may be converted. - Thus Romans 6 on water baptism precedes Romans 8 on the Holy Spirit.
Belief and faith must be put into action > submission and obedience.
It always starts with Acts 2:38 and never changes.
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It always starts with the foundation of water baptism according to an old testament cerimoninil law (Exodus 29) that provided a shadow of the cleaning of the word or water of the word applied when a new priest entered the ministry.
It is what the discussion was in regard in respect to, the ceremonial law of using water in ceremonies in John3: 25-26 .the subject matter. and the law never changes. it came before Romans 6 and 8. It was not a discussion of what is called a believer baptism .
We can be baptized to show we have a desire to bring the gospel.... the new tongue spoken of as one of the metaphors that follow after every believer hears the gospel of salvation and belives. The poison of false prophecy and oral tradition of men, whose traditions make the word of God without effect will not harm them, another of the whole group of metaphors that follow every believer.
Remember we walk by faith sign are not substance .
The reformation had come. The promised new manner of priest after Melchedik went from John the Levi (the last) to Jesus from the tribe of Judah and now a kingdom of priest from all the nations of the world .Its the same as the foundation of tongues it is destroyed by sign and wonders seekers to confirm something rather than walking by faith. .
Then there arose a question between some of John's disciples and the Jews about purifying. And they came unto John, and said unto him, Rabbi, he that was with thee beyond Jordan, to whom thou barest witness, behold, the same baptizeth, and all men come to him. John answered and said, A man can receive nothing, except it be given him from heaven.John3:25-27
Like David said in the Psalms.... what could the believers do if the foundations of his doctrines are destroyed? Spiritual unseen gifts, yes. Non spiritual as that seen as a gift, no.
Yet for all that they show their difference .Some wear it proudly it would seem .
It is what the discussion was in regard in respect to, the ceremonial law of using water in ceremonies in John3: 25-26 .the subject matter. and the law never changes. it came before Romans 6 and 8. It was not a discussion of what is called a believer baptism .
We can be baptized to show we have a desire to bring the gospel.... the new tongue spoken of as one of the metaphors that follow after every believer hears the gospel of salvation and belives. The poison of false prophecy and oral tradition of men, whose traditions make the word of God without effect will not harm them, another of the whole group of metaphors that follow every believer.
Remember we walk by faith sign are not substance .
The reformation had come. The promised new manner of priest after Melchedik went from John the Levi (the last) to Jesus from the tribe of Judah and now a kingdom of priest from all the nations of the world .Its the same as the foundation of tongues it is destroyed by sign and wonders seekers to confirm something rather than walking by faith. .
Then there arose a question between some of John's disciples and the Jews about purifying. And they came unto John, and said unto him, Rabbi, he that was with thee beyond Jordan, to whom thou barest witness, behold, the same baptizeth, and all men come to him. John answered and said, A man can receive nothing, except it be given him from heaven.John3:25-27
Like David said in the Psalms.... what could the believers do if the foundations of his doctrines are destroyed? Spiritual unseen gifts, yes. Non spiritual as that seen as a gift, no.
Yet for all that they show their difference .Some wear it proudly it would seem .
It truly saddens me to see how many people are so easily duped by false religions and cults.
Prior to my conversion while still attending the Roman Catholic church several years, I was duped into believing that we must be water baptized to be saved (which was the only thing I was capable of understanding at that time) but after my conversion, having lost the blinders, I now see the truth clearly. Praise God!
If water baptism was absolutely required for salvation, then there would not be so many passages of Scripture in which God promises eternal life to those who simply BELIEVE.. (Luke 8:12; John 1:12; 3:16,18,36; 20:31; Acts 10:43; 11:17; 13:39; 16:31; Romans 1:16; 4:5-6; 10:4; 1 Corinthians 1:21 etc..).
There are a multitude of verses in Scripture that make it clear man is saved through belief/faith "apart from additions or modifications" (Luke 8:12; John 1:12; 3:15,16,18,36; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26; Acts 10:43; 11:17; 13:39; 15:7-9; 16:31; 26:18; Romans 1:16; 3:22-28; 4:5-6; 10:4; 1 Corinthians 1:21; Galatians 2:16; 3:6-7, 24-26; Ephesians 1:13; 2:8; Philippians 3:9; 2 Timothy 3:15; Hebrews 10:39; 1 John 5:4; 13 etc..). *Not one of these verses "adds" water baptism to the equation.
Baptism is the expected initial outward response to the gospel, but it is not a part of the gospel itself (1 Corinthians 1:17; 15:1-4). There are a handful of alleged proof texts which are often cited by works-salvationists to prove that the Bible makes water baptism mandatory for salvation. A careful examination of each of these texts in context will show that none of them prove that baptism is absolutely required for salvation, though they do prove that baptism was an assumed initiatory response to the gospel of salvation. In other words, these texts only prove that baptism is regularly associated with conversion and salvation, rather than absolutely required for salvation.
Prior to my conversion while still attending the Roman Catholic church several years, I was duped into believing that we must be water baptized to be saved (which was the only thing I was capable of understanding at that time) but after my conversion, having lost the blinders, I now see the truth clearly. Praise God!
If water baptism was absolutely required for salvation, then there would not be so many passages of Scripture in which God promises eternal life to those who simply BELIEVE.. (Luke 8:12; John 1:12; 3:16,18,36; 20:31; Acts 10:43; 11:17; 13:39; 16:31; Romans 1:16; 4:5-6; 10:4; 1 Corinthians 1:21 etc..).
There are a multitude of verses in Scripture that make it clear man is saved through belief/faith "apart from additions or modifications" (Luke 8:12; John 1:12; 3:15,16,18,36; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26; Acts 10:43; 11:17; 13:39; 15:7-9; 16:31; 26:18; Romans 1:16; 3:22-28; 4:5-6; 10:4; 1 Corinthians 1:21; Galatians 2:16; 3:6-7, 24-26; Ephesians 1:13; 2:8; Philippians 3:9; 2 Timothy 3:15; Hebrews 10:39; 1 John 5:4; 13 etc..). *Not one of these verses "adds" water baptism to the equation.
Baptism is the expected initial outward response to the gospel, but it is not a part of the gospel itself (1 Corinthians 1:17; 15:1-4). There are a handful of alleged proof texts which are often cited by works-salvationists to prove that the Bible makes water baptism mandatory for salvation. A careful examination of each of these texts in context will show that none of them prove that baptism is absolutely required for salvation, though they do prove that baptism was an assumed initiatory response to the gospel of salvation. In other words, these texts only prove that baptism is regularly associated with conversion and salvation, rather than absolutely required for salvation.
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It truly saddens me to see how many people are so easily duped by false religions and cults.
Prior to my conversion while still attending the Roman Catholic church several years, I was duped into believing that we must be water baptized to be saved (which was the only thing I was capable of understanding at that time) but after my conversion, having lost the blinders, I now see the truth clearly. Praise God!
If water baptism was absolutely required for salvation, then there would not be so many passages of Scripture in which God promises eternal life to those who simply BELIEVE.. (Luke 8:12; John 1:12; 3:16,18,36; 20:31; Acts 10:43; 11:17; 13:39; 16:31; Romans 1:16; 4:5-6; 10:4; 1 Corinthians 1:21 etc..).
There are a multitude of verses in Scripture that make it clear man is saved through belief/faith "apart from additions or modifications" (Luke 8:12; John 1:12; 3:15,16,18,36; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26; Acts 10:43; 11:17; 13:39; 15:7-9; 16:31; 26:18; Romans 1:16; 3:22-28; 4:5-6; 10:4; 1 Corinthians 1:21; Galatians 2:16; 3:6-7, 24-26; Ephesians 1:13; 2:8; Philippians 3:9; 2 Timothy 3:15; Hebrews 10:39; 1 John 5:4; 13 etc..). *Not one of these verses "adds" water baptism to the equation.
Baptism is the expected initial outward response to the gospel, but it is not a part of the gospel itself (1 Corinthians 1:17; 15:1-4). There are a handful of alleged proof texts which are often cited by works-salvationists to prove that the Bible makes water baptism mandatory for salvation. A careful examination of each of these texts in context will show that none of them prove that baptism is absolutely required for salvation, though they do prove that baptism was an assumed initiatory response to the gospel of salvation. In other words, these texts only prove that baptism is regularly associated with conversion and salvation, rather than absolutely required for salvation.
Prior to my conversion while still attending the Roman Catholic church several years, I was duped into believing that we must be water baptized to be saved (which was the only thing I was capable of understanding at that time) but after my conversion, having lost the blinders, I now see the truth clearly. Praise God!
If water baptism was absolutely required for salvation, then there would not be so many passages of Scripture in which God promises eternal life to those who simply BELIEVE.. (Luke 8:12; John 1:12; 3:16,18,36; 20:31; Acts 10:43; 11:17; 13:39; 16:31; Romans 1:16; 4:5-6; 10:4; 1 Corinthians 1:21 etc..).
There are a multitude of verses in Scripture that make it clear man is saved through belief/faith "apart from additions or modifications" (Luke 8:12; John 1:12; 3:15,16,18,36; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26; Acts 10:43; 11:17; 13:39; 15:7-9; 16:31; 26:18; Romans 1:16; 3:22-28; 4:5-6; 10:4; 1 Corinthians 1:21; Galatians 2:16; 3:6-7, 24-26; Ephesians 1:13; 2:8; Philippians 3:9; 2 Timothy 3:15; Hebrews 10:39; 1 John 5:4; 13 etc..). *Not one of these verses "adds" water baptism to the equation.
Baptism is the expected initial outward response to the gospel, but it is not a part of the gospel itself (1 Corinthians 1:17; 15:1-4). There are a handful of alleged proof texts which are often cited by works-salvationists to prove that the Bible makes water baptism mandatory for salvation. A careful examination of each of these texts in context will show that none of them prove that baptism is absolutely required for salvation, though they do prove that baptism was an assumed initiatory response to the gospel of salvation. In other words, these texts only prove that baptism is regularly associated with conversion and salvation, rather than absolutely required for salvation.
Another item is that there is nowhere that someone is found lacking for leaving it off.
The 7 letters to the 7 churches omit any rebuke for not baptising or a warning.
"Because thou hast left out baptising..."
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Well in your interpretation he does. When you finally realise i think you will be so blessed beyond comprehension
So the interpretation is more reliable and trustworthy then the original words written.
Its good to know you ar onewho thinks our bible is more accurate then peters bible or better yet. Peters own written words. I think you need to do a self check of what you think.
So the interpretation is more reliable and trustworthy then the original words written.
Its good to know you ar onewho thinks our bible is more accurate then peters bible or better yet. Peters own written words. I think you need to do a self check of what you think.
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You still miss the point
You boast of being saved by your works. Not on the work of christ.
As paul,said. Not of works (water baptism is a work, no matter how hard you wish to deny it) lest anyone should boast,
Paul even spoke of abraham, and how if he was saved by works he would have something to boast in.
When. Give the gospel, i haveno ability to boast, because my faith is in god and his work, not any wrk of righteousness i ever did.
Thats what seperates us, what our faith is in.yours is in the fact that some human baptized you, mine is in the fact that god saved me, and he himself baptized me into christ. Your faith is in physical water, mine is in spiritual water, your faith is in the cleansing done by hands of men, mine is in the spiritual cleaning done by the hands of god.
Huge difference there!
You boast of being saved by your works. Not on the work of christ.
As paul,said. Not of works (water baptism is a work, no matter how hard you wish to deny it) lest anyone should boast,
Paul even spoke of abraham, and how if he was saved by works he would have something to boast in.
When. Give the gospel, i haveno ability to boast, because my faith is in god and his work, not any wrk of righteousness i ever did.
Thats what seperates us, what our faith is in.yours is in the fact that some human baptized you, mine is in the fact that god saved me, and he himself baptized me into christ. Your faith is in physical water, mine is in spiritual water, your faith is in the cleansing done by hands of men, mine is in the spiritual cleaning done by the hands of god.
Huge difference there!
E
You do realise the two statements (green/red) contradict each other completely do you not?
The green says we are not saved by good works or self righteousness
The red says but by our works of self righteousness (obedience)
You fail to realise, works of self righteousness speaksof us workimg for self gain (in this case salvation) godly righteousness is working for no gain but for the gain of others.
The green says we are not saved by good works or self righteousness
The red says but by our works of self righteousness (obedience)
You fail to realise, works of self righteousness speaksof us workimg for self gain (in this case salvation) godly righteousness is working for no gain but for the gain of others.
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Jesus does not need our help in saving us. His finished work of redemption is sufficient and complete to save believers. No supplements needed. (Romans 3:24-28) I was once in a discussion with someone who attends the church of Christ that teaches salvation by faith + works (with a heavy emphasis on water baptism) and after he told me that he does not teach salvation by works, he then contradicted himself by making this statement below:
"It is works of obedience that help to save us and not works of the law or works of merit."
Sugar coated double talk.
"It is works of obedience that help to save us and not works of the law or works of merit."
Sugar coated double talk.
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