Born Again Speaking in Tongues

[eternally-gratefull]

But many many "Christians" do refuse water baptism.
Even here on Christian Chat notable members argue strongly against the need and purpose of water baptism.
Where does that leave "believers" in their standing with Jesus?

Depends

Is their faith in Jesus, or their water baptism?

If its in jesus They are saved

If it is in their water baptism. They are in trouble.

I was baptized when I was 8 years old. After I trusted my eternity to Christ. But my baptism was an open testimony, not a self righteous act to attempt to save my soul.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

The obedience to God's command to be water baptized prompts a spiritual action. It is part of the spiritual rebirth.

Wrong

It is spirit baptism (God baptising us) which promps spiritual birth (See col 2 with titus 3: 5)

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Jesus does not need our help in saving us. His finished work of redemption is sufficient and complete to save believers. No supplements needed. (Romans 3:24-28) I was once in a discussion with someone who attends the church of Christ that teaches salvation by faith + works (with a heavy emphasis on water baptism) and after he told me that he does not teach salvation by works, he then contradicted himself by making this statement below:

"It is works of obedience that help to save us and not works of the law or works of merit."

Sugar coated double talk.

Amen,

Jesus said “it is finished”

Not I did my work. Now you do yours..

 

[eternally-gratefull]

"No supplements needed" obedience is not a supplement.
"the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise" -
again an abridged and truncated interpretation of what it means to believe the gospel and what is the gospel.
Like I said each to his own, You are free to believe in wrong doctrine. In the end Jesus will judge.

Yet you demand a suppliment (in this case water baptism), thus you just contradicted yourself.

 

[Wansvic]

Wrong

It is spirit baptism (God baptising us) which promps spiritual birth (See col 2 with titus 3: 5)

Both are required as evidenced in the word.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Both are required as evidenced in the word.

Wrong

Only in your faulty interpretation


Paul makes it clear. There is only one faith and one baptism. It is not water baptism, it is spirit baptism which saves.

 

[mailmandan]

Wrong

Only in your faulty interpretation

Paul makes it clear. There is only one faith and one baptism. It is not water baptism, it is spirit baptism which saves.

*There is only ONE baptism that places us into the body of Christ and that is SPIRIT baptism, not water baptism.

Ephesians 4:5 - one Lord, one faith, one baptism.

1 Corinthians 12:13 - For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body--whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free--and have all been made to drink into one Spirit. *Also see John 4:10,14; 7:37 for the word drink(s).

The two elements found in the new birth (John 3:5) are living water and the Spirit (Who is the source of living water and spiritual cleansing). Plain ordinary H20 (water baptism) has no power to literally cleanse our heart from sin or mystically cause us to become born again.

 

[cv5]

Both are required as evidenced in the word.

Water baptism is merely the ritual that testifies to an already completed Act of the Spirit. BTW....one can be fraudulent and the other can never be anything but genuine.

 

[mailmandan]

Water baptism is merely the ritual that testifies to an already completed Act of the Spirit. BTW....one can be fraudulent and the other can never be anything but genuine.

Amen! I like how Greek scholar Daniel Wallace explains in Greek Grammar Beyond the Basics:

*Water baptism is not a cause of salvation, but a picture; and as such it serves both as a public acknowledgment (by those present) and a public confession (by the convert) that one has been Spirit baptized.

 

[Waggles]

*Water baptism is not a cause of salvation, but a picture; and as such it serves both as a public acknowledgment (by those present) and a public confession (by the convert) that one has been Spirit baptized.

What rubbish is this?
Water baptism is not evidence of being baptized in the Holy Spirit - not at all.
Speaking in tongues is the only God given evidence of baptism of the Holy Spirit.

 

[notuptome]

What rubbish is this?
Water baptism is not evidence of being baptized in the Holy Spirit - not at all.
Speaking in tongues is the only God given evidence of baptism of the Holy Spirit.

Rubbish. Signs are for the unsaved not for believers.

Prodigal cease from feeding on husks and feast on the goodness of God.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[Waggles]

Prodigal cease from feeding on husks and feast on the goodness of God.

Your ignorance of the Spiritual is there for all of us to see.

 

[wolfwint]

What rubbish is this?
Water baptism is not evidence of being baptized in the Holy Spirit - not at all.
Speaking in tongues is the only God given evidence of baptism of the Holy Spirit.

This is simply not true. Otherwise how you explain that this was neither taught in the word of God, nor in the churchhistory till to the beginning of the pentecostal movement in 1901.
Even man like Wesley and Finney did not taught this.
In other words: if you believe this, then you must also say that before Agnes Ozman nobody was baptised with the Holy Spirit. Without the Holy Spirit nobody can be bornagain. This means before Agnes Ozman nobody in the last 1800 years was bornagain.

 

[mailmandan]

What rubbish is this?

It's not rubbish.

Water baptism is not evidence of being baptized in the Holy Spirit - not at all.

Daniel Wallace stated that water baptism is not a cause of salvation, but a picture; and as such it serves both as a public acknowledgment (by those present) and a public confession (by the convert) that one has been Spirit baptized. For those who have truly believed and received the gift of the Holy Spirit, it is a public acknowledgement. Water baptism is not necessarily "evidence" that one has received the Holy Spirit because tragically, there are plenty of people (in various false religions and cults) who have been water baptized as a means to obtaining salvation (so they thought) but have not truly believed and received the gift of the Holy Spirit (even though they may have been duped into believing otherwise).

Speaking in tongues is the only God given evidence of baptism of the Holy Spirit.

Speaking in tongues may be "an" evidence of receiving the Holy Spirit (as was the case for these Gentiles in Acts 10:45-46) who after receiving the gift of the Holy Spirit were heard speaking in tongues and magnifying God, yet it's not "the" evidence for everyone, because not all speak in tongues (1 Corinthians 12:28-31). These Gentles in Acts 10:43-47 had truly believed, received the gift of the Holy Spirit and were saved and a part of the body of Christ (before water baptism) and speaking in tongues gave evidence to the Jews (those of the circumcision) that they had received the Holy Spirit. Acts 10:45 - And those of the circumcision who believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also.

 

[Footprint]

Speaking in tongues may be "an" evidence of receiving the Holy Spirit (as was the case for these Gentiles in Acts 10:45-46) who after receiving the gift of the Holy Spirit were heard speaking in tongues and magnifying God, yet it's not "the" evidence for everyone, because not all speak in tongues (1 Corinthians 12:28-31). These Gentles in Acts 10:43-47 had truly believed, received the gift of the Holy Spirit and were saved and a part of the body of Christ (before water baptism) and speaking in tongues gave evidence to the Jews (those of the circumcision) that they had received the Holy Spirit. Acts 10:45 - And those of the circumcision who believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also.

The gospel is the Death, Burial, Resurrection of Jesus Christ. And Acts 2:38 is the Gospel in ACTION, being applied...

Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them,
1. Repent, - (death)
2. and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and - (burial)
3. ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. - (resurrection)

If I ever desire to skydive out of a plane, I would talk to someone who has actually done it himself or herself. And yet it is amazing that those who have never spoken in tongues claim to be an authority on the subject.

After repentance I was baptized full immersion into the water having the name of Jesus pronounced over me and filled with the Holy Ghost speaking in tongues. And as per the O.P. this initial speaking in tongues is NOT the gift of tongues a stated in 1Corinthians.

Acts 2:4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

John 3:8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.


-Thank you.

 

[mailmandan]

The gospel is the Death, Burial, Resurrection of Jesus Christ.

Amen! 1 Corinthians 15:1 - Moreover, brethren, I declare to you the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received and in which you stand, 2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast that word which I preached to you—unless you believed in vain. 3 For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 and that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day according to the Scriptures.

And Acts 2:38 is the Gospel in ACTION, being applied...

Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them,
1. Repent, - (death)
2. and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and - (burial)
3. ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. - (resurrection)

Water baptism is a picture of the gospel (death, burial and resurrection of Christ) but is not the gospel itself.

So what do YOU believe it means to BELIEVE the gospel? (Romans 1:16)

If I ever desire to skydive out of a plane, I would talk to someone who has actually done it himself or herself. And yet it is amazing that those who have never spoken in tongues claim to be an authority on the subject.

People who pervert the gospel are not an authority on baptism, tongues or salvation. My brother and sister in law who attended an Assemblies of God church for several years (and others I know who have attended Charismatic churches) have shared stories with me on how they witnessed what they believe to be someone who genuinely spoke in tongues, followed by an interpretation, yet they also witnessed what they believe to be "fake tongues." There are word of faith preachers on TBN who have been exposed in this kind of folly! The gift of tongues is not an indicator of spiritual superiority, although certain people who claim to have spoken in tongues in too many cases seem to believe otherwise, which is what led my brother and sister in law (and others I know) to leave Charismatic churches. Too much pride and arrogance in regards to tongues.

Also, in regards to speaking in tongues, I will never forget when my friend (who previously attended an Assemblies of God church) went to a Bible study at his Pastor's house once a week and sometimes the Pastor would speak in tongues during their Bible study. My friend worked with a woman who was a Baptist and was terrified of being around people who spoke in tongues, yet my friend convinced her to come to the Bible study to see for herself that she has nothing to fear. When his lady friend showed up at the Bible study, as soon as she walked in the door, the Pastor began speaking in tongues very loudly with his hands high in the air, then he fell backwards to the floor! My friend said that even he was freaked out by the incident and when he turned around, his lady friend was running for the hills! Of course, that did not help the case for tongues for this Baptist woman and it was also not a good example of things being done properly and in an orderly manner. (1 Corinthians 14:40)

After repentance I was baptized full immersion into the water having the name of Jesus pronounced over me and filled with the Holy Ghost speaking in tongues. And as per the O.P. this initial speaking in tongues is NOT the gift of tongues a stated in 1Corinthians. Acts 2:4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance. John 3:8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

Speaking in tongues certainly is a gift of the Holy Spirit. 1 Corinthians 12:4 - There are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit. 5 There are differences of ministries, but the same Lord. 6 And there are diversities of activities, but it is the same God who works all in all. 7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to each one for the profit of all: 8 for to one is given the word of wisdom through the Spirit, to another the word of knowledge through the same Spirit, 9 to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healings by the same Spirit, 10 to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another discerning of spirits, to another different kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues. 11 But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually as He wills.

 

[mailmandan]

Oneness Pentecostal movements seem to maintain that speaking in tongues is not just a post-conversion indicator of the filling or baptism of the Holy Spirit, but an essential ingredient in the salvation experience itself. In other words, if a person has never spoken in tongues, he or she is not saved! That is a dangerous false teaching!

 

[Footprint]

People who pervert the gospel are not an authority on baptism, tongues or salvation. My brother and sister in law who attended an Assemblies of God church for several years (and others I know who have attended Charismatic churches) have shared stories with me on how they witnessed what they believe to be someone who genuinely spoke in tongues, followed by an interpretation, yet they also witnessed what they believe to be "fake tongues." There are word of faith preachers on TBN who have been exposed in this kind of folly! The gift of tongues is not an indicator of spiritual superiority, although certain people who claim to have spoken in tongues in too many cases seem to believe otherwise, which is what led my brother and sister in law (and others I know) to leave Charismatic churches. Too much pride and arrogance in regards to tongues.

Also, in regards to speaking in tongues, I will never forget when my friend (who previously attended an Assemblies of God church) went to a Bible study at his Pastor's house once a week and sometimes the Pastor would speak in tongues during their Bible study. My friend worked with a woman who was a Baptist and was terrified of being around people who spoke in tongues, yet my friend convinced her to come to the Bible study to see for herself that she has nothing to fear. When his lady friend showed up at the Bible study, as soon as she walked in the door, the Pastor began speaking in tongues very loudly with his hands high in the air, then he fell backwards to the floor! My friend said that even he was freaked out by the incident and when he turned around, his lady friend was running for the hills! Of course, that did not help the case for tongues for this Baptist woman and it was also not a good example of things being done properly and in an orderly manner. (1 Corinthians 14:40)

Charismatic churches, Assemblies of God, Baptists, I'm really not a fan of any of these, nor of any "denomination." There was never to be any divisions in the church, however we now have THOUSANDS!

The problem you are relating across to me has to do with the devil and his counterfeit. Going all the way back to the times of Moses and the judgements upon Egypt, Pharaoh's magicians could duplicate those same miracles (up to a point).

In fact, during the 2nd half of Daniels week (3 1/2 years) the antichrist will be performing miracles that deceives the world, and that is simultaneously while God's two witnesses are doing the Lord's miracles. Which do you think people will think is the real one?

Dan, I'm sorry to hear you have witnessed the fake operations of God, but rest assured there is the real fully operating in these last days according to Acts 2:38, and it is the real operation I truly hope you seek and find.

Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
[39] For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.


With the love of Christ,
God bless!

 

[Absolutely]

Oneness Pentecostal movements seem to maintain that speaking in tongues is not just a post-conversion indicator of the filling or baptism of the Holy Spirit, but an essential ingredient in the salvation experience itself. In other words, if a person has never spoken in tongues, he or she is not saved! That is a dangerous false teaching!

I believe so.
Two separate entities

 

[Absolutely]

Part of the stalemate in debating the gifts and power and baptism in the Holy Spirit is that the Spirit preceeds the word.
Anointing precedes the word.
I can approach the subject 3 ways.
1) experience. (And there is no danger of the devil taking over in the anointing)
2) from no experience,and preadopting the notion it has to be fake. Then constructing my position with both omitted and selected verses.
3) from no experience, but somehow knowing Jesus was right,the apostles right,church history right,and acts is not a dusty obsolete fairy tale like my church and leaders have stated.

I rarely see position 3,but if revival breaks out and the Holy Spirit is given room,the no 3's will ,hopefully,dive in.