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No a white X indicates that I simply disagree with you.
And as this thread has proved over and over again worldly Christians who do not pray in tongues have no knowledge whatsoever
about the power and purpose of the Holy Spirit within a believer nor why God wants us to pray to Him in tongues and not with our natural minds.
And as this thread has proved over and over again worldly Christians who do not pray in tongues have no knowledge whatsoever
about the power and purpose of the Holy Spirit within a believer nor why God wants us to pray to Him in tongues and not with our natural minds.
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I'm sorry if I did not make this clear.
Only believers are filled with the Holy Spirit. This happens when we are saved. The next step after salvation is to become mature in Christ. That is sanctification, which I have never heard mentioned once in my 15 years in various denominational and non-denominational so-called spirit-filled churches.
I see there are 2 routes being presented in this thread for how to live once you are saved. One, is to keep having more and more experiences and depend upon them. And of course, as I said above, many experiences do line up with the Word - like joy, peace, love, comfort, encouragement, etc.
But, the catch is, you need a knowledge of the Word, to clearly check whether your experience lines up with the Word of God. That requires renewing your MIND in the word, by the power of the Holy Spirit. It cannot be an either/or thing. Without a deep knowledge of the Word renewing our minds, and transforming us into the image of Christ, the Spirit has nothing to work with. No amount of jumping up and down, speaking in tongues is ever going to change us so we are more like Christ. As for power, all believers have that as a result of their being filled with the Spirit at salvation.
7seas, I do understand that you are not addicted to experiences, and you do seem to really know the Word of God. So, even though I have addressed this to you, it is really for the others, who have never moved forward in God, since the day they got the so-called "baptism of the HS" which is not found in Scripture. The only baptism, a noun, is water baptism.
But more, I see this whole Pentecostal/charismatic direction as missing totally the whole journey of salvation. We are not perfect when we are justified, although we are made positionally right in the eyes of God, though faith in Christ, and his death and resurrection, and atoning for our sins.
So, if we are not perfect, then how to we grow? Do we grow, by getting an unscriptural baptism, and THEN we are perfect? Never!
Instead, we walk with the Holy Spirit who is given to each born again Christian, which is a different journey for each of us. BUT, it is the same journey, in terms of we grow in the Word, and the Holy Spirit uses it to make us mature. A one time experience in anything doesn't make you mature, especially not spiritually. instead, it is a daily journey, filled with prayer, studying the Word, fellowship and service.
But this Pentecostal movement instead looks at a false Baptism, fake healings, and waiting around for the tongues of fire to descend daily. Or more?
The fact is, tongues of fire, and speaking in tongues were given as a sign of the birth of the church. Not as an ongoing means of sanctification. That is why tongues are confined to Acts, the story of the birth of the church, and the immoral Corinthian, who were not following the Biblical truths, but rather, distorting what Paul had taught them. And then, it died out. It is not mentioned again in the Bible, because the Bible replaced that experience of the early church, as the way to follow Christ. That is why tongues as LiKE fire, never appear again. They were unique to the birth of the church. Surely if the Day of Pentecost was normative, then speaking in tongues would be accompanied by the believer having tongues like fire, too? At least initially. Yet, it is not taught, because it does not happened.
The way the Bible gives to become mature is hard and long. We walk with the Holy Spirit, who arranges for us to grow, in ways we need as different people. For some, it is suffering. For others, it is service, or other ministries. The gifts we are given are to serve, God, his people, and to share the gospel. The deeper we are in the Word, (of course, led by the Spirit that we all have!) the more we become santified or mature, which means we are growing into the image of Christ.
We were created in the image of God. That perfection was lost at the Fall. Christ came to redeem us from the Fall, and change us back into his image. But, that will not be completed until we are glorified at the Eschaton.
"And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose. 29 For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. 30 And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified." Romans 8:28-30
How does he do this? Read Romans 8. It does not mention speak in tongues. Unless you want to twist the word "groaning" into "unknown tongues" which has no exegetical basis.
So, I do agree, we need the Holy Spirit to guide and direct us! Absolutely! But, that is not the goal, and never was, of speaking in tongues. God has chosen a much more solid method of helping us mature when we are saved - and that is his Word mediated by the Holy Spirit that we all have in us.
I think tongues is stealing God's glory, and perverting his plans. After 15 years spent in churches that believed this, and just reading the immature responses of many in this forum, I remain convinced that tongues are long gone, and God uses the Word and the Holy Spirit, who was given to us when we were saved, or justified, as his plan to glorify himself, and help us to be transformed into the image of Christ which has always been the triune God's plan for us.
Only believers are filled with the Holy Spirit. This happens when we are saved. The next step after salvation is to become mature in Christ. That is sanctification, which I have never heard mentioned once in my 15 years in various denominational and non-denominational so-called spirit-filled churches.
I see there are 2 routes being presented in this thread for how to live once you are saved. One, is to keep having more and more experiences and depend upon them. And of course, as I said above, many experiences do line up with the Word - like joy, peace, love, comfort, encouragement, etc.
But, the catch is, you need a knowledge of the Word, to clearly check whether your experience lines up with the Word of God. That requires renewing your MIND in the word, by the power of the Holy Spirit. It cannot be an either/or thing. Without a deep knowledge of the Word renewing our minds, and transforming us into the image of Christ, the Spirit has nothing to work with. No amount of jumping up and down, speaking in tongues is ever going to change us so we are more like Christ. As for power, all believers have that as a result of their being filled with the Spirit at salvation.
7seas, I do understand that you are not addicted to experiences, and you do seem to really know the Word of God. So, even though I have addressed this to you, it is really for the others, who have never moved forward in God, since the day they got the so-called "baptism of the HS" which is not found in Scripture. The only baptism, a noun, is water baptism.
But more, I see this whole Pentecostal/charismatic direction as missing totally the whole journey of salvation. We are not perfect when we are justified, although we are made positionally right in the eyes of God, though faith in Christ, and his death and resurrection, and atoning for our sins.
So, if we are not perfect, then how to we grow? Do we grow, by getting an unscriptural baptism, and THEN we are perfect? Never!
Instead, we walk with the Holy Spirit who is given to each born again Christian, which is a different journey for each of us. BUT, it is the same journey, in terms of we grow in the Word, and the Holy Spirit uses it to make us mature. A one time experience in anything doesn't make you mature, especially not spiritually. instead, it is a daily journey, filled with prayer, studying the Word, fellowship and service.
But this Pentecostal movement instead looks at a false Baptism, fake healings, and waiting around for the tongues of fire to descend daily. Or more?
The fact is, tongues of fire, and speaking in tongues were given as a sign of the birth of the church. Not as an ongoing means of sanctification. That is why tongues are confined to Acts, the story of the birth of the church, and the immoral Corinthian, who were not following the Biblical truths, but rather, distorting what Paul had taught them. And then, it died out. It is not mentioned again in the Bible, because the Bible replaced that experience of the early church, as the way to follow Christ. That is why tongues as LiKE fire, never appear again. They were unique to the birth of the church. Surely if the Day of Pentecost was normative, then speaking in tongues would be accompanied by the believer having tongues like fire, too? At least initially. Yet, it is not taught, because it does not happened.
The way the Bible gives to become mature is hard and long. We walk with the Holy Spirit, who arranges for us to grow, in ways we need as different people. For some, it is suffering. For others, it is service, or other ministries. The gifts we are given are to serve, God, his people, and to share the gospel. The deeper we are in the Word, (of course, led by the Spirit that we all have!) the more we become santified or mature, which means we are growing into the image of Christ.
We were created in the image of God. That perfection was lost at the Fall. Christ came to redeem us from the Fall, and change us back into his image. But, that will not be completed until we are glorified at the Eschaton.
"And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose. 29 For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. 30 And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified." Romans 8:28-30
How does he do this? Read Romans 8. It does not mention speak in tongues. Unless you want to twist the word "groaning" into "unknown tongues" which has no exegetical basis.
So, I do agree, we need the Holy Spirit to guide and direct us! Absolutely! But, that is not the goal, and never was, of speaking in tongues. God has chosen a much more solid method of helping us mature when we are saved - and that is his Word mediated by the Holy Spirit that we all have in us.
I think tongues is stealing God's glory, and perverting his plans. After 15 years spent in churches that believed this, and just reading the immature responses of many in this forum, I remain convinced that tongues are long gone, and God uses the Word and the Holy Spirit, who was given to us when we were saved, or justified, as his plan to glorify himself, and help us to be transformed into the image of Christ which has always been the triune God's plan for us.
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Wow - so much unbelief through ignorance.
And yet in my church we operate speaking in an unknown tongue followed by interpretation.
God confirming tongues in the church and as a gift of the Holy Spirit.
1 This is how one should regard us, as servants of Christ and stewards of the mysteries of God.
2 Moreover, it is required of stewards that they be found faithful.
1Corinthians 4:
And yet in my church we operate speaking in an unknown tongue followed by interpretation.
God confirming tongues in the church and as a gift of the Holy Spirit.
1 This is how one should regard us, as servants of Christ and stewards of the mysteries of God.
2 Moreover, it is required of stewards that they be found faithful.
1Corinthians 4:
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I guess if you define being on fire for God as jumping around and yelling, dancing, barking in church, or even a more orderly procedure like tongues and then an interpreter, then tongues speakers are certainly showing off that they are so-called, '"on fire" for God.
If you define being on fire for God, as being on mission with God, finding out your gifts, and using them for the glory of God, then, the majority of tongue speakers are not on fire. They are wasting time on externals, while their inner qualities, like humility, love, patience, long suffering, gentleness are not being developed. I knew people who went on mission trips to share the gospel who were tongues speakers. Unfortunately, getting people baptized in the Holy Spirit was more important than God saving them, and helping them grow closer to God, and serving God and maturing.
I've been to lots and and lots of services with people showing off their so-called tongues, and being horribly excessive in these false manifestations of the Spirit. If that is being "on fire for God" I will continue to walk away from that. The Bible NEVER even uses the term "on fire for God!" No, it talks about obeying God, walking with Christ, even in suffering. It talks about being santified and renewing our minds - OUR MINDS in the Word. Not this false image that you think is from God! You and all the other tongues speakers, but especially the Oneness Pentecostals, who would dare to say that a born again Christian is not, because they don't follow their heretical doctrines.
Time for you to study the actual Bible, with no helps from some kind of Pentecostal guide. Then, you will learn the truth, and you will be set free.
"As a prisoner for the Lord, then, I urge you to live a life worthy of the calling you have received. 2 Be completely humble and gentle; be patient, bearing with one another in love.3 Make every effort to keep the unity of the Spirit through the bond of peace. 4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to one hope when you were called; 5 one Lord,one faith, one baptism; 6 one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all." Eph. 4:1-6
"So Christ himself gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the pastors and teachers, 12 to equip his people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up 13 until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ.
14 Then we will no longer be infants, tossed back and forth by the waves, and blown here and there by every wind of teaching and by the cunning and craftiness of people in their deceitful scheming. 15 Instead, speaking the truth in love, we will grow to become in every respect the mature body of him who is the head, that is, Christ. 16 From him the whole body, joined and held together by every supporting ligament, grows and builds itself up in love, as each part does its work." Eph. 4:11-16
This is the message of how we grow in Christ, not by speaking in tongues, but by becoming mature through all the things mentioned above.
Read all of Ephesians about 20 times, then maybe the light will dawn, and you will see how you have been so badly led astray.
If you define being on fire for God, as being on mission with God, finding out your gifts, and using them for the glory of God, then, the majority of tongue speakers are not on fire. They are wasting time on externals, while their inner qualities, like humility, love, patience, long suffering, gentleness are not being developed. I knew people who went on mission trips to share the gospel who were tongues speakers. Unfortunately, getting people baptized in the Holy Spirit was more important than God saving them, and helping them grow closer to God, and serving God and maturing.
I've been to lots and and lots of services with people showing off their so-called tongues, and being horribly excessive in these false manifestations of the Spirit. If that is being "on fire for God" I will continue to walk away from that. The Bible NEVER even uses the term "on fire for God!" No, it talks about obeying God, walking with Christ, even in suffering. It talks about being santified and renewing our minds - OUR MINDS in the Word. Not this false image that you think is from God! You and all the other tongues speakers, but especially the Oneness Pentecostals, who would dare to say that a born again Christian is not, because they don't follow their heretical doctrines.
Time for you to study the actual Bible, with no helps from some kind of Pentecostal guide. Then, you will learn the truth, and you will be set free.
"As a prisoner for the Lord, then, I urge you to live a life worthy of the calling you have received. 2 Be completely humble and gentle; be patient, bearing with one another in love.3 Make every effort to keep the unity of the Spirit through the bond of peace. 4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to one hope when you were called; 5 one Lord,one faith, one baptism; 6 one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all." Eph. 4:1-6
"So Christ himself gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the pastors and teachers, 12 to equip his people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up 13 until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ.
14 Then we will no longer be infants, tossed back and forth by the waves, and blown here and there by every wind of teaching and by the cunning and craftiness of people in their deceitful scheming. 15 Instead, speaking the truth in love, we will grow to become in every respect the mature body of him who is the head, that is, Christ. 16 From him the whole body, joined and held together by every supporting ligament, grows and builds itself up in love, as each part does its work." Eph. 4:11-16
This is the message of how we grow in Christ, not by speaking in tongues, but by becoming mature through all the things mentioned above.
Read all of Ephesians about 20 times, then maybe the light will dawn, and you will see how you have been so badly led astray.
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First, there was no RCC till the late 4th century, and the NT was finished long before that. There are so few references to tongues in the NT, other than the birth of the church, compared to the rest of the Bible, as to render tongues obsolete as any kind of doctrine.
Are you Oneness Pentecostal? You sure need to read the Bible outside of church, and read everything, and forget this RCC myth. I do not believe the RCC church is from God, I agree it is filled with heresy. But no more so than this tongues nonsense, which was just invented last century.
I worry you don't claim to be "deep in the Word." If you had claimed that, well, perhaps we could get a discussion going. Instead, you have one doctrine, one obsession, and it is tongues. Read the Bible. Read Romans and Hebrews. All about our salvation journey and not a word about tongues. If a doctrine is important, it is found ALL OVER THE BIBLE! Tongues is not. You have failed to really read the whole counsel of God. Instead you have landed on a virtually spurious doctrine, and forgotten about what Christ really wants for us. He wants us to follow him, and Jesus never talked in tongues, did he?
I would urge you to read the Bible. You seem to have fallen into the church of Corinth, instead of the church of God. Study the Trinity, if you dare. Study what God's goal is for our lives, since Genesis 1. It has always been to be the likeness of our Creator. The mature body of Christ. Pentecostals have gone far beyond what is written! As far as 1 Cor. 4 says:
"Now, brothers and sisters, I have applied these things to myself and Apollos for your benefit, so that you may learn from us the meaning of the saying, “Do not go beyond what is written.” Then you will not be puffed up in being a follower of one of us over against the other.7 For who makes you different from anyone else? What do you have that you did not receive?And if you did receive it, why do you boast as though you did not?" 1 Cor. 4:6-7
Then, read 1 Cor. 15, which I posted above. It is the real gospel not the false gospel of tongues. Paul was angry with the Corinithians in this letter. What was happening was not normative. It was not the gospel, which he clearly spells out in the last chapter. Paul wrote this for a reason, because the true gospel was not being preached in Corinth. I wonder if you have a spirit of humility and can change, like the Corinthians did?
"By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.
3 For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sinsaccording to the Scriptures, 4 that he was buried, that he was raised on the third dayaccording to the Scriptures, 5 and that he appeared to Cephas, and then to the Twelve." 1 Cor. 15:2-5.
This is the true gospel, you are off the track laid down in the Bible. I'm sorry if that hurts, but it is the truth.
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This is the truth! No one has defined tongues. So, we really can't even agree to disagree right now. I see tongues as a terrible deception, because of my experiences in that movement for 15 years, and because of my studies of the Bible.
Waggles believes something different, including that it renews, although he gives no Scriptures to support that viewpoint. I know that is because there really is no support for tongues the way it is practiced today, unless of course, you are a member of the 1st century church in Corinth, or were there at the birth of the church in Acts.
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I cited and quoted Christ words and you disagree. Though adamant you are it seems, you certainly not disagree with me. You disagree with the scripture every time I posted and you have been proven over and over again what the Holy Spirit saith and yet the primary p purpose of the Holy Spirit is to convict sinners to come into the faith. Faith that saves. Equating tongues speaking and water baptism as a way of salvation is another way, a totally different way. This is not the gospel preach by the apostles, it's a fake, false as the error of baptismal regeneration especially had crept into the churches sometime in the 2nd Ce. AD by the false teaches inside the church and became apostate even before the Roman Catholic adopted the Infant Baptism.
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Ignorance of what? What the "sign" truly confirms..... unbelief ?
That's easy just look at the law of what I will call ; "Yet for all that they refuse to hear the Lord" and go to the foundation of it. God has assigned of falling back to help identify.
Yet for all that they still fall backward for the filling of self edification as it would seem ,
Isaiah 28:11-13 King James Version (KJV) For with stammering (mocking) lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear. But the word of the Lord was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.
1 Corinthians 14:20-22 King James Version (KJV)
20 Brethren, be not children in understanding: howbeit in malice be ye children, but in understanding be men.
21 In the law Isaiah 28:11-13 it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord. Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not (unbelief) : but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.
An unknown tongue followed by a unknown interpretation as private ? Secret language?
2 Peter 1:19-21 King James Version (KJV)We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts: Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.
Faithful to perform what mystery wonderments ?
That's easy just look at the law of what I will call ; "Yet for all that they refuse to hear the Lord" and go to the foundation of it. God has assigned of falling back to help identify.
Yet for all that they still fall backward for the filling of self edification as it would seem ,
Isaiah 28:11-13 King James Version (KJV) For with stammering (mocking) lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear. But the word of the Lord was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.
1 Corinthians 14:20-22 King James Version (KJV)
20 Brethren, be not children in understanding: howbeit in malice be ye children, but in understanding be men.
21 In the law Isaiah 28:11-13 it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord. Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not (unbelief) : but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.
An unknown tongue followed by a unknown interpretation as private ? Secret language?
2 Peter 1:19-21 King James Version (KJV)We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts: Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.
Faithful to perform what mystery wonderments ?
The filing is weekly not satisfying to the flesh. As good increase so do those who practice them more unknow languages . Once was enough for me.
I don't think brother Waggle will define what a tongue is ….it will lose the mystery . As it seems those who require a sign before they believe confuse faith with wonderment .
Tongue is simply a new manner of prophecy . If it not prophecy as God's interpretation to us not of us. That leaves one alternative. Another voice of interpretation, earthly inspired by the father of lies. The idea make a noise and find someone to interpret it is not a Biblical teaching.
2 Peter 1:19-21 King James Version (KJV)We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts: Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.
I don't think brother Waggle will define what a tongue is ….it will lose the mystery . As it seems those who require a sign before they believe confuse faith with wonderment .
Tongue is simply a new manner of prophecy . If it not prophecy as God's interpretation to us not of us. That leaves one alternative. Another voice of interpretation, earthly inspired by the father of lies. The idea make a noise and find someone to interpret it is not a Biblical teaching.
2 Peter 1:19-21 King James Version (KJV)We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts: Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.
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Saul was brought to his knee’s And through that recieved Christ in faith.
He was already (in his own words) blameless according to the law. Hoe could he be any more obedient that he was?
He was saved BECAUSE of his faith, And BECAUSE he repented of his dead works.
Of course he spoke in tongues, He had a mission, To go to the gentiles and show those who did not know God who God was. And give them the gospel. What a better way to show them than to miraculaously speek in their native language.
I pray your not putting yourself in same mold as Paul. Paul would be against you my friend.
He was already (in his own words) blameless according to the law. Hoe could he be any more obedient that he was?
He was saved BECAUSE of his faith, And BECAUSE he repented of his dead works.
Of course he spoke in tongues, He had a mission, To go to the gentiles and show those who did not know God who God was. And give them the gospel. What a better way to show them than to miraculaously speek in their native language.
I pray your not putting yourself in same mold as Paul. Paul would be against you my friend.
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That's why I can and do pray in tongues, as I believe the Word of God and are obedient to scripture.
As Jesus himself declared …
15 And he said to them, “Go into all the world and proclaim the gospel to the whole creation.
17 And these signs will accompany those who believe: in my name they will cast out demons; they will speak in new tongues;
Mark 16:
if you believe in Jesus then measure yourself against his word.
As Jesus himself declared …
15 And he said to them, “Go into all the world and proclaim the gospel to the whole creation.
17 And these signs will accompany those who believe: in my name they will cast out demons; they will speak in new tongues;
Mark 16:
if you believe in Jesus then measure yourself against his word.
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