Born Again Speaking in Tongues

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.

Waggles

Senior Member
Sep 21, 2017
3,338
1,254
113
South
adelaiderevival.com
There is NO "baptism" of the Holy Spirit. Quote the verse, if there is. With the noun, not the verb.
Your grammar request does not speak to understanding of what baptism in the Holy Ghost is?

I baptize you with water for repentance, but he who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.
Matthew 3:11
I have baptized you with water, but he will baptize you with the Holy Spirit.
Mark 1:8
1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.
3 And this will we do, if God permit.
Hebrews 6:
 

Angela53510

Senior Member
Jan 24, 2011
11,215
2,377
113
23 years in my Pentecostal Church and what is preached from the platform is sound doctrine, the truth and extremely scriptural
and compliant with my KJV Bible.
I know you Americans have problems with religion in the good old U.S.A but that does not mean that the rest of the world
follows your peculiar ways.
Does your current church operate the gifts of speaking in an unknown tongue and interpretation?
Do you operate the gifts of Prophecy - God speaking directly to his church, to his children?

If you were Bible obedient you would be doing this; as we are commanded to do.
Oh, I am Canadian, although I consider Americans to be my friends, and I lived in the US as a child growing up for 2 years. So 63 years a Canadian, and a conservative.

People that use the KJV are also on this thread, also disagreeing with you. It is not the version, but actually reading the whole Bible, and then believing and following it, unlike you, who can't even quote the Bible, and now you resort to calling me what you think are awful names, like being an "American."

You are resorting to really stupid things now, and you have not quoted anything I have asked, nor told me which branch of Pentecostalism you are from. Very sad!
 

Waggles

Senior Member
Sep 21, 2017
3,338
1,254
113
South
adelaiderevival.com
There is nothing I dislike more than verses torn out of context to prove a wrong point. So, prove to me we are not saved till we are so-called receive the "baptism" of the Holy Spirit. Prove to me you have to speak in tongues to be saved.
Why do you lot keep on citing this ??
Just because you do not have the Holy Spirit does not mean that you are not saved.
Obviously there is always the hope of salvation for all of us: Pentecostal, Roman Catholics, Protestants, Orthodox and others …
The main difference is that a Spirit-filled Pentecostal Christian walks the walk in the power of the Holy Spirit; while the Christians who
are not Spirit-filled walk the walk in their own strength and by their own efforts.
 
7

7seasrekeyed

Guest
I’m really not concerned about arguing with people over whether or not tongues have ceased, but like I said in post #867, I am concerned about those who pervert the gospel by teaching that ONLY those who speak in tongues are saved - “no tongues, no indwelling Holy Spirit.”

There is someone on Christian Chat who is Pentecostal that teaches this, plus two other Pentecostals who in addition to that also teach that you MUST be water baptized “in Jesus name only” as a salvation formula and being baptized in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirt is invalid -“according to them,” even though Jesus Christ clearly stated to do so in Matthew 28:19.

I’m not trying to paint the entire Pentecostal movement with a broad brush of teaching those false doctrines, but those false doctrines are deceptive and dangerous and need to be exposed!

it isn't about whether or not they have ceased

it is actually about people trying to make other people believe they have ceased

they have not

ceased

stop pointing to people in error to excuse all the nasty posts...I don't mean that to you personally. you stay cool from what I have seen

error is error on any side
 

Waggles

Senior Member
Sep 21, 2017
3,338
1,254
113
South
adelaiderevival.com
Finally, I think it is dishonest to not admit your are Oneness Pentecostal,
Excuse me - you are crossing the red line here. Publicly calling me a liar.
From the person who condemns others for their lack of love and fruit of the Holy Spirit.
It always ends up the same with you cessationists [and backsliders] you degenerate to personal abuse and slander.
You end up attacking individuals and impugn us to be Satanic corrupt, wolves, etc etc .
I am not Oneness Pentecostal. Never have been and never will be.
 

notuptome

Senior Member
May 17, 2013
15,016
2,506
113
....and we will note how you denied praying in tongues with such "authority"
Here is yet another verse testifying against you;
1 Corinthians 14:14 King James Version (KJV)

14 For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.

Face it.you haven't a clue.
Actually you do not read the verse the way it is written. You read into the verse what suits your preconceived doctrine. Paul is not nor is he saying that he prays in tongues. He is saying that if he did this would be the results. This is not as you suppose an encouragement to pray without understanding but a warning not to engage in prayer without understanding but to seek to understand what you pray as verse 15 tell us.

1 Cor 14:14 For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.
15 ¶ What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.

You are a false and misleading person. You need to seek solid biblical teaching to correct your errors.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 
7

7seasrekeyed

Guest
I'm sorry if I did not make this clear.

Only believers are filled with the Holy Spirit. This happens when we are saved. The next step after salvation is to become mature in Christ. That is sanctification, which I have never heard mentioned once in my 15 years in various denominational and non-denominational so-called spirit-filled churches.

I see there are 2 routes being presented in this thread for how to live once you are saved. One, is to keep having more and more experiences and depend upon them. And of course, as I said above, many experiences do line up with the Word - like joy, peace, love, comfort, encouragement, etc.

But, the catch is, you need a knowledge of the Word, to clearly check whether your experience lines up with the Word of God. That requires renewing your MIND in the word, by the power of the Holy Spirit. It cannot be an either/or thing. Without a deep knowledge of the Word renewing our minds, and transforming us into the image of Christ, the Spirit has nothing to work with. No amount of jumping up and down, speaking in tongues is ever going to change us so we are more like Christ. As for power, all believers have that as a result of their being filled with the Spirit at salvation.

7seas, I do understand that you are not addicted to experiences, and you do seem to really know the Word of God. So, even though I have addressed this to you, it is really for the others, who have never moved forward in God, since the day they got the so-called "baptism of the HS" which is not found in Scripture. The only baptism, a noun, is water baptism.

But more, I see this whole Pentecostal/charismatic direction as missing totally the whole journey of salvation. We are not perfect when we are justified, although we are made positionally right in the eyes of God, though faith in Christ, and his death and resurrection, and atoning for our sins.

So, if we are not perfect, then how to we grow? Do we grow, by getting an unscriptural baptism, and THEN we are perfect? Never!

Instead, we walk with the Holy Spirit who is given to each born again Christian, which is a different journey for each of us. BUT, it is the same journey, in terms of we grow in the Word, and the Holy Spirit uses it to make us mature. A one time experience in anything doesn't make you mature, especially not spiritually. instead, it is a daily journey, filled with prayer, studying the Word, fellowship and service.

But this Pentecostal movement instead looks at a false Baptism, fake healings, and waiting around for the tongues of fire to descend daily. Or more?

The fact is, tongues of fire, and speaking in tongues were given as a sign of the birth of the church. Not as an ongoing means of sanctification. That is why tongues are confined to Acts, the story of the birth of the church, and the immoral Corinthian, who were not following the Biblical truths, but rather, distorting what Paul had taught them. And then, it died out. It is not mentioned again in the Bible, because the Bible replaced that experience of the early church, as the way to follow Christ. That is why tongues as LiKE fire, never appear again. They were unique to the birth of the church. Surely if the Day of Pentecost was normative, then speaking in tongues would be accompanied by the believer having tongues like fire, too? At least initially. Yet, it is not taught, because it does not happened.

The way the Bible gives to become mature is hard and long. We walk with the Holy Spirit, who arranges for us to grow, in ways we need as different people. For some, it is suffering. For others, it is service, or other ministries. The gifts we are given are to serve, God, his people, and to share the gospel. The deeper we are in the Word, (of course, led by the Spirit that we all have!) the more we become santified or mature, which means we are growing into the image of Christ.

We were created in the image of God. That perfection was lost at the Fall. Christ came to redeem us from the Fall, and change us back into his image. But, that will not be completed until we are glorified at the Eschaton.

"And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose. 29 For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. 30 And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified." Romans 8:28-30

How does he do this? Read Romans 8. It does not mention speak in tongues. Unless you want to twist the word "groaning" into "unknown tongues" which has no exegetical basis.

So, I do agree, we need the Holy Spirit to guide and direct us! Absolutely! But, that is not the goal, and never was, of speaking in tongues. God has chosen a much more solid method of helping us mature when we are saved - and that is his Word mediated by the Holy Spirit that we all have in us.

I think tongues is stealing God's glory, and perverting his plans. After 15 years spent in churches that believed this, and just reading the immature responses of many in this forum, I remain convinced that tongues are long gone, and God uses the Word and the Holy Spirit, who was given to us when we were saved, or justified, as his plan to glorify himself, and help us to be transformed into the image of Christ which has always been the triune God's plan for us.

I'm not having this conversation with you

you are not an expert plus are you not a Preterist? as in Jesus already came back? seems I got that impression somewhere

if you are, that changes your entire view on the entire Bible. if not, well does not really matter since I do not find you exactly inspirational...but rather determined to knock others down to your level

it seems you are rather keen to continue the er...um... RAGING DEBATE, as you put it, going

enjoy

you have had a very different experience then many have

IMO, you have lost faith because of it

let me clear about one thing though

don't worry about making yourself clear (meaning hey stupid let me correct you again)

you have made yourself clear

I hope I have also :giggle:
 

Waggles

Senior Member
Sep 21, 2017
3,338
1,254
113
South
adelaiderevival.com
f you read the whole Bible, it would move you away from Pentecostalism. But of course, as Isaiah says:
11 For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.
12 To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear.
Isaiah 28:
1Co 14:21 In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord.
1Co 14:22 Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.
1Corinthians 14:
 

Waggles

Senior Member
Sep 21, 2017
3,338
1,254
113
South
adelaiderevival.com
But, it wasn't necessary, or God would have preserved it.
But God did preserve it!!
Despite the best attempts by worldly Roman church to destroy the original ending of mark 16 they failed and some
85% of the original texts still have the truth written for us to read and to believe on.
 

Waggles

Senior Member
Sep 21, 2017
3,338
1,254
113
South
adelaiderevival.com
the Codex Sinaiticus and Codex Vaticanus.
And look at the ownership of these disputed texts - the Greek Orthodox Church and the good old RCC the Vatican.
Yeah of course they would have no need to mutilate the Word of God - the very scriptures that show up how off they are
from the one and true gospel.
 
7

7seasrekeyed

Guest
I guess if you define being on fire for God as jumping around and yelling, dancing, barking in church, or even a more orderly procedure like tongues and then an interpreter, then tongues speakers are certainly showing off that they are so-called, '"on fire" for God.

If you define being on fire for God, as being on mission with God, finding out your gifts, and using them for the glory of God, then, the majority of tongue speakers are not on fire. They are wasting time on externals, while their inner qualities, like humility, love, patience, long suffering, gentleness are not being developed. I knew people who went on mission trips to share the gospel who were tongues speakers. Unfortunately, getting people baptized in the Holy Spirit was more important than God saving them, and helping them grow closer to God, and serving God and maturing.

I've been to lots and and lots of services with people showing off their so-called tongues, and being horribly excessive in these false manifestations of the Spirit. If that is being "on fire for God" I will continue to walk away from that. The Bible NEVER even uses the term "on fire for God!" No, it talks about obeying God, walking with Christ, even in suffering. It talks about being santified and renewing our minds - OUR MINDS in the Word. Not this false image that you think is from God! You and all the other tongues speakers, but especially the Oneness Pentecostals, who would dare to say that a born again Christian is not, because they don't follow their heretical doctrines.

Time for you to study the actual Bible, with no helps from some kind of Pentecostal guide. Then, you will learn the truth, and you will be set free.

"As a prisoner for the Lord, then, I urge you to live a life worthy of the calling you have received. 2 Be completely humble and gentle; be patient, bearing with one another in love.3 Make every effort to keep the unity of the Spirit through the bond of peace. 4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to one hope when you were called; 5 one Lord,one faith, one baptism; 6 one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all." Eph. 4:1-6

"So Christ himself gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the pastors and teachers, 12 to equip his people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up 13 until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ.

14 Then we will no longer be infants, tossed back and forth by the waves, and blown here and there by every wind of teaching and by the cunning and craftiness of people in their deceitful scheming. 15 Instead, speaking the truth in love, we will grow to become in every respect the mature body of him who is the head, that is, Christ. 16 From him the whole body, joined and held together by every supporting ligament, grows and builds itself up in love, as each part does its work." Eph. 4:11-16

This is the message of how we grow in Christ, not by speaking in tongues, but by becoming mature through all the things mentioned above.

Read all of Ephesians about 20 times, then maybe the light will dawn, and you will see how you have been so badly led astray.
well la de dah :rolleyes:

that is how you define them for us. probably how you acted. but I sure never have

I'm not debating with you as I said I wouldn't, but your nasty posts need to be pointed out

you do this to anyone who says they disagree with you

not content to disagree, you insult and act arrogant

you speak of your own experience...but now I am wondering if you were so reserved you couldn't forget yourself and remained rigid and above it all

I'm not for excess but nor am I for those who think they are the paragon of all truth and display it with their insults

I'm really not sure you have the gift you think you have because it does not line up with scripture
 

Waggles

Senior Member
Sep 21, 2017
3,338
1,254
113
South
adelaiderevival.com
You are resorting to really stupid things now, and you have not quoted anything I have asked, nor told me which branch of Pentecostalism you are from. Very sad!
You and others keep referring to the terrible state of various Charismatic church behaviours in the U.S.A [sorry forgot about your Toronto blessing thingy] - religion in the U.S.A in disarray and strange things are happening in your charismatic churches that are out of order.
The insult is not that you are an U.S. or a Canadian American but on how Christianity seems to be constantly reinvented in
North America.

The Revival Fellowship is of itself and has come out of the great Pentecostal revival of Smith Wigglesworth when he came to Australia
way back in 1922.
We are not affiliated to any other denomination.
 
7

7seasrekeyed

Guest
This is the truth! No one has defined tongues. So, we really can't even agree to disagree right now. I see tongues as a terrible deception, because of my experiences in that movement for 15 years, and because of my studies of the Bible.

Waggles believes something different, including that it renews, although he gives no Scriptures to support that viewpoint. I know that is because there really is no support for tongues the way it is practiced today, unless of course, you are a member of the 1st century church in Corinth, or were there at the birth of the church in Acts.

that is an outright lie and you know it

tongues has been defined through the YEARS I have been here over and over and over and over

using scripture,

defined, delivered and evident to all who can read

the truth bugs you that much, eh? you are so transparent. things are getting ugly since you started posting

your experiences. well that is all you have while saying we don't go by experience. make up your mind

I totally believe you see tongues as a deception

but not teacher, right? no. you are good with that one. a teacher but not teachable.
 
7

7seasrekeyed

Guest
Angela53510 said:
Jesus never talked in tongues, did he?
this about leaves me flabbergasted that you would stoop to this ultimate low level silly question

He is the Son of God incarnate

we are given the gift of speaking and praying in tongues because we are not

we do not know the mind of God like we ought to so the Holy Spirit prays for and within us

Jesus, only did what the Father told Him to do

smh
 

wolfwint

Senior Member
Feb 15, 2014
2,895
670
113
You really are a vinyl record.
The first church of the first century was only Pentecostal.
To be a Christian, a follower of the way, a person needed to repent and believe - this was put into action through submitting to
full immersion water baptism and also the baptism of the Holy Spirit with the sign of speaking in a new tongue.
Acts tells us about this and the epistles were written to the one and only Spirit-filled church that complied with the above.

God knew that this would only last for a short period, given the nature of humankind in a world ruled by Satan.
And sure enough the miraculous signs and gifts of the early church dissipated and the Babylonian influenced church of Rome
gained the ascendancy and eventually became the RCC and the Papacy.

Jesus has love and compassion for all Christians whether they be Roman Catholics, Protestants, Orthodox, and other flavours.
All Christians have the hope of mercy and forgiveness and having their name written in the Book of Life.
But just as God established a Spirit-filled Pentecostal church and faith in the beginning to kickstart off Christianity so now in these
very last of last days God again has brought back Pentecostal revival and churches to again draw people to salvation.
When the world is on fire those without the Holy Spirit will have great difficulty keeping their faith and being distinct and
separate from all the others who will perish.
Thank you for a response, but it hit not my question. How someone can be a christian without having the Holy Spirit living inside?
Where in the bible is said that God will again establish an pentecostal revival in the last days?
Does before 1908 lived spiritfilled with the Holy Spirit baptised people in australia?
 

Waggles

Senior Member
Sep 21, 2017
3,338
1,254
113
South
adelaiderevival.com
Thank you for a response, but it hit not my question. How someone can be a christian without having the Holy Spirit living inside?
Where in the bible is said that God will again establish an pentecostal revival in the last days?
Does before 1908 lived spiritfilled with the Holy Spirit baptised people in australia?
I'm pretty sure I have answered your question and explained my beliefs quite clearly.
Somethings are given to us through the gifts of wisdom and knowledge and most definitely through the gifts of prophecy.
Other too have answered your questions many times adequately but no matter what people reply to you it supposedly never
answers your questions.

Be happy in your church. I am in mine.
 

Angela53510

Senior Member
Jan 24, 2011
11,215
2,377
113
well la de dah :rolleyes:

that is how you define them for us. probably how you acted. but I sure never have

I'm not debating with you as I said I wouldn't, but your nasty posts need to be pointed out

you do this to anyone who says they disagree with you

not content to disagree, you insult and act arrogant

you speak of your own experience...but now I am wondering if you were so reserved you couldn't forget yourself and remained rigid and above it all

I'm not for excess but nor am I for those who think they are the paragon of all truth and display it with their insults

I'm really not sure you have the gift you think you have because it does not line up with scripture
Haha! I was a professional music and an exhibitionist before I was saved. Always an outgoing extrovert. So worry no more, My boundaries were thin before God saved me, and till I burned out with the excesses that even an ex-musician couldn't take in Pentecostal and charismatic churches. No inhibitions here!

As for insults, wow! You take the cake in that one. But again, your precious tongues are called out, and you always go back to the default position of tongues being important, instead of God being important. Sad!
 

Angela53510

Senior Member
Jan 24, 2011
11,215
2,377
113
I'm not having this conversation with you

you are not an expert plus are you not a Preterist? as in Jesus already came back? seems I got that impression somewhere

if you are, that changes your entire view on the entire Bible. if not, well does not really matter since I do not find you exactly inspirational...but rather determined to knock others down to your level

it seems you are rather keen to continue the er...um... RAGING DEBATE, as you put it, going

enjoy

you have had a very different experience then many have

IMO, you have lost faith because of it

let me clear about one thing though

don't worry about making yourself clear (meaning hey stupid let me correct you again)

you have made yourself clear

I hope I have also :giggle:
What else a I supposed to do, when you are unable to get simple facts correct? I am not a full preterist, but a partial one, and amillennial.

I do not believe Jesus has already returned. But neither do I believe in a fake, secret Rapture. In fact, that kind of nonsense guessing about the end, doesn't interest me at all.

And trust me, I have not lost faith. Not since the day I was saved, 39 years ago. Although I did have a hard 2 years when I first got RA, and was judged and condemned by Word Faith people. God kept me in his hands, and the gift of faith which HE gave me never diminished, because it was from God, not me.

Again, sorry you have fallen for such a pathetic lie, and you base you life on it.